Brakes – Hope or Shimano?

I genuinely disagree with that, I found the old Saints to be far to on and off. That’s what feel means to me Northwind, anyway the M4’s modulate a lot nicer than my V2’s. When I moved up to the V2’s I really had to alter my braking style (and even these modulate fairly well) so as not to scrub off to much speed into corners.

But just like with the Formulas, you’re talking about obsolete models using a totally different design- why is your old Saint relevent to current Shimano?

I haven’t tried the new Saints but I’ve tried the new XT’s quite a bit on mates bikes. I was just using the old saints as an example of how I find modulation to be important, I nearly OTB’d with them. I found the newer XT’s to be better in that regard but not enough to justify saving 50-70 quid by going with them over Race X2’s.

Fair enough- personally, I liked the old Saints even less than the current ones but I still couldn’t call them on/off, they just wanted a little more subtlety than I liked.

Thing with the new XTs, is that they work well with smaller rotors. But, most folks still seem to be speccing big rotors, and choosing power over subtlety. And the user feedback shows lots of people prefer the delivery.

My guy with the 203mm Saints thinks my The Ones are “too soft”, so, what do we know?

That’s because most people like braking like idiots, hence skidding causing braking bumps in Morzine and damage to jumps in Chicksands etc. No one seems to get that locking up causes your braking distance to be longer.

Personally I prefer big rotors as I’ve cooked Oros, The Ones, Avid’s and the old C2’s and mono M4’s and my brother once managed to boil a set of M6’s at a downhill race in the uk…**** knows how you do that, the calliper and cooling surface on those brakes was huge.

Your right though, it’s down to personal preference. I stated that earlier, if your preference is for grabbier brakes the OP should go with the Shimano’s. At the end of the day it won’t affect his riding that much either way he goes, it’s just about taste.

<edited as the post I was responding to had been edited so much, my response made no sense>

Sorry Northwind. Tired, replying whilst staying up doing some stats work.

Nah, not at all, I was doing it too 🙂 Off to bed

Sticky pistons on the 4 year old M4’s? Sounds like they need a rebuild… send it to your LBS/Hope or get the stuff and do it yourself (3-parter video, includes pulling apart the Tech lever):

Race EVO X2’s would be good enough on big enough rotors… though I would personally go with Race EVO M4’s, if only for the fact you then have pad commonality with your older set of Hopes and two pairs of four pistons, seals and a pair of borecaps in common between the older and current M4’s. Plus you could probably drop a rotor size and run 183F/160R on M4’s rather than 203F/183R on X2’s. Don’t think you’d get away with 160F/R or 160F/140R unless you’re an uber-whippet though.

I’m on 2 sets of shimano brakes (M765 and M535), both sets are about 5-6years old, neither have had any problems that needed replacement parts. They just work all the time.

I don’t think the more on/off feeling of Shimano brakes mean you have to “brake like an idiot, hence skidding causing braking bumps”. I have no problems modulating my braking with the XTR ones they just need a more delicate touch than the Hopes.

You could instead have said Hope brakes are great for people who like the comfort of constantly dragging their brakes 🙂

At the end of the day different people like different things and personal preference will determine which you get on with, it doesn’t mean one is wrong or you’re an idiot, they’re just different.

I run Zee 4 pots on 203 rotors front and rear – and I weigh 70kg.

I race enduro and ride AM – I hardly ever lock up, it’s all about having loads more power, so that by having a well positioned lever and reach set well, I can deliver all the power I need, but it’s more “in the finger” rather than requiring a pull through the hands, wrists and arms.

This in turn cuts arm pump, and also means I can brake harder & later without hitting that point where my arms lock up.

I really like Hope. Had plenty of Hope brakes but I’m afraid that they don’t even compare to my XTs performance wise. I wish they did.

I’ve got both Shimano and Hopes on various bikes & I think they have different plus points.

Shimano (XT, Saint)
+ powerful
+ easy to bleed
+ good pad clearance
– Crap serviceability (I had to throw away some Saint calipers as I forgot to wash off some road salt).
– Not particularly light

Hope (Race EVO X2, M4, Mini)
+ Easy modulation (if you like that sort of thing)
+ easy to bleed
+ spare parts availability & Hope’s service backup
+ tend to be fairly lightweight
– less powerful than Shimano equivalent IME
– slim pad clearance, resulting in frequent need to adjust

About Shimano “lack of modulation”…I can see why people would say this, they do feel very different to something like Hope. But, once you’re used to riding them, I find you can still modulate easily enough, it just takes less finger pressure. If you get straight off a bike with Hopes and onto Shimano you’ll be all grabby & it’ll feel very binary. Still happens to me when I switch between my bikes, but I just have to remember to ride them differently & I soon get used to them again.

First time I used the latest Shimanos I wasn’t a fan of the modulation – grabbier than I was used to.

But now I’ve gotten used to them they are ace. Genuine 1-finger braking.

A mate’s Hopes are simply not in the same league. You might can it ‘progressive’ or ‘feel’ but these could easily just be another way of saying they lack power…

I loved my hope tech 2’s but I think it’s that huge initial bite the new xt’s give that people like and relate to .

I’ve had enough sets of Hope brakes over the years to know that I don’t want any more. Everyone who I ride with have tried them & got fed up, apart from one die hard. Still it gives us endless ammunition for piss taking mid ride 🙂

The only other brakes I have ever had a problem with was an original set of Formula The Ones, which was just a general design fail on their part.

I’ve got a set of the later style The One’s on my trail bike, that were donated from my DH bike. They’ve done over 3 months DH in the Alps, countless DH races, 2 Mega’s, Gravity Enduro’s & god knows how much other riding & thus far have just required pad changes. I’m amazed by them. My Mrs also has a set that have done a similar amount, and again, have been maintenance free & she uses them considerably more than me, being a serial brake dragger…

She also has a set of original Saints, that were mine, probably 7 or 8 years old now on her DH bike that are still going strong, if they die, they will replaced by a set of new style Shimano brakes.

I don’t understand people’s oddities when it comes to modulation either. I can only assume braking for some people is literally grab the lever as hard as possible – the modulation comes from your fingers, not the brake. If you’re braking too hard, release the brake a bit. What’s the challenge?

I don’t understand people’s oddities when it comes to modulation either

The comment with the new Shimanos is that the power response isn’t linear to hand input. You squeeze a bit, you get some bite, you then double the squeeze but you get more than double the bite. So the brake power isn’t linear in relation to the hand power, so it takes a few rides to dial that in.

The older Shimanos are more linear, and I still prefer them for slow speed techy stuff.

You might can it ‘progressive’ or ‘feel’ but these could easily just be another way of saying they lack power…

Does anyone own a set of brakes that cannot lock the wheels by just pulling as hard as you can?
No brake lacks power and no one needs more power from their brakes and if you do lay of the pies 😉

I’ve had my hope levers start coming right back to the bars and not being able to lock the wheels mid race when they worked fine at the start. I’m about 67kg so don’t think my weight is an issue.

The Hopes have plenty of power but in my experience they need a lot more tweaking to keep them working at their best whereas my shimano brakes have been a lot more fit and forget. The Hopes needed bleeding several times a year whereas I haven’t had to do anything except change pads on the XTR ones over the same period.

Never run Shimanos (I personally don’t like quite a bit of their stuff most particuarly the general lack of serviceability – pedals are brilliant though). I always go for Hope brakes – once set up well I have found they need very little attention but if they do even an idiot like me can usually do it. If they need more, Hope service is fantastic. Shimano seems to want you to buy whole new kit if anything minor breaks.

Personal choice though, of course.

Personal choice though, of course.

This is correct, all the major brake manufacturers make brakes that work and that thousands of people use perfectly happily.

Personally I have 4 sets of hope brakes that all work well with minimal maintenance, while out of 3 shimano brakes two went back under warranty and one is still functioning so far, but needed a bleed straight out of the box. No doubt they are fine if you get a working set.

ononeorange – Member

Shimano seems to want you to buy whole new kit if anything minor breaks.

New parts, anyway. But got to be seen as part of the overall pricing really- say (like me) you get an XT brake and then it pops a piston seal. You can’t buy a seal, but you can buy a whole caliper for about £30, which also comes with pads. So in the end, works out not much more expensive than just buying a seal kit. And you need to replace a lot of Shimano parts before it stops being good value.

It’s not ideal but it shouldn’t be a dealbraker, except maybe on the pricier models.

This is correct, all the major brake manufacturers make brakes that work and that thousands of people use perfectly happily.

+1

I was pretty concerned about the potential reliability of the Elixirs on my bike, given all the stories you hear, but they’ve been faultless in over a year of pretty heavy use. (They’ll now fail next ride out, of course.)

I still find it hilarious that people think their XT’s are more powerful than Evo X2’s when dyno results have shown the opposite.

I still find it hilarious that people think their XT’s are more powerful than Evo X2’s when dyno results have shown the opposite.

You must go down a storm at parties. 😛

out of interest, anyone got a link to the dyno results?

bwaarp – Member
I still find it hilarious that people think their XT’s are more powerful than Evo X2’s when dyno results have shown the opposite.

I find hilarious when people post comments like that but are wrong

Hope Tech Evo X2 97Nm 463g
Shimano XT M785 107Nm 466g

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/fitness/article/how-we-test-hydraulic-disc-brakes-24345/

You must go down a storm at parties.

I don’t think mentioning dyno results has made this conversation any less suitable for parties… 😀

EDIT:

I find hilarious when people post comments like that but are wrong

Hope Tech Evo X2 97Nm 463g
Shimano XT M785 107Nm 466g

Though that link shows that Hope Race Evo X2s are more powerful than XT, at 110Nm.

Interesting that SLX is more powerful than XT…

… and it was of course this, what the op was asking for… not Tech X2.

Also didn’t realise the Race EVO M4’s I have’n’love are like top-5 powerful. Wooh.

I’ve got XT’s and X2’s, you wont be dissapointed with either.

The hopes are nice and modulated. The Shimano’s are nothing-nothing-lots-LOTS-not much more-not much more again (think of it like an S-shaped force/power curve). Good for avoiding arm pump on rough tracks, less for fine controll on slow tech muddy stuff (but then some people just like to lock wheels and ski down).

I’ve had no reliability problems with either. Although my old hope C2’s needed new seals after about 8 years. My old shimano XTR blew their seals arround half that age and were irrepairable due to no spares.

cheers honourablegeorge

However I cant help thinking those test results are a little unreliable.

e.g. taking just the Elixir & Code (because I have some and know a few size details), the codes have 15% more power, I know this because, same lever, but pistons have 15% more surface area. Yet the test shows they have the same power.

Bikeradar, I call shenanigans.

Bikeradar, I call shenanigans.

Or just a badly done test. Doing it properly you’d test several of the same brake, with multiple pads/rotors incase they’re containated, etc etc.

It certainly feels like the Race Evo M4 have something like an exponential power curve, so they’re very sensitive when you’re braking softly and very powerful when you’re braking hard. Recent Shimano ones I’ve compared have more of a straight line power curve so harder to avoid skidding when it’s slippery. Maybe it’s just my rad skillz but with my M4s I skid far less than most people I ride with.

mrmonkfinger – Member

However I cant help thinking those test results are a little unreliable.

Can’t help thinking the same, tbh.

Whoops forgot to come back to this thread. Fascinating reading.
Cutting weight and improving reliability are the two ideas behind moving away from 4 pots, especially when there isn’t that much difference power wise.
And yes I was asking about the Race version rather than plain Tech version because I’ve read the bikeradar dyno saying they have more power.

As I’ve got two bikes wanting new brakes I’m thinking of SLX on my winter XC bike to see how I get on with the “grabby” feel and then use that understanding along with peoples experience of reliability etc to choose what I go with on my main race bike.

Its been an entertaining read though – thanks all!

I don’t find the M666 grabby. I just had to adjust to applying much less pressure on the levers. Slowing down you just move them with finger tips until you feel the first bit of resistance. Full-stop you just lightly squeeze with one finger. Ive been riding in Molini recently where the trails go down down down and you’re on/off the brakes loads more than at home. Zero arm pump.