[Closed] Bible stories

the feeding of the 5000 only counts the men - he also fed the women and children but they were not counted.

For an atheistic statement on this forum, your standard of writing is in the top 5%.

Any other bible stories you maybe think aren't telling us the whole truth?

All of them?!

mary was a virgin?? com 'on
It astounds me that people who are religious would never believe that someone would get pregnant without having sex in this day and age so why is it anymore believable all those years ago. Also if mary was a virgin that says a lot about Joseph, afterall they were married, why didn't she jump his bones on the wedding night? Did he have bad breath perhaps?

IIRC, the virgin birth and resurrection stuff was all added much later than the middles of the gospels.

The Roman empire had got too big to control by militaristic means, so they planted an agent (Saul of Tarsus) in a new Jewish hippy-peace-loving cult to expand it to the gentiles and make them easier to control.

Who wants to tell him what virgin use to mean?

"Who wants to tell him what virgin use to mean?"

I want you too, I might learn something as well.

What wheel sizes were used on the Pharaoh's chariots?

[img] [/img]
hit me with the truth Drac, I'm over 18!

Never knew that either!

“The word ‘virgin’ did not originally mean a woman whose vagina was untouched by any penis, but a free woman, one not betrothed, not bound to, not possessed by any man. It meant a female who is sexually and hence socially her own person. In any version of patriarchy, there are no Virgins in this sense.”

badnewz - Member
For an atheistic statement on this forum, your standard of writing is in the top 5%.

Regardless, it's a question not a statement! 😆 Guess a better way to phrase the question would be:

How would you re-write a bible story for the present day?

So, she was openly sleeping about then?

mary was a virgin?? com 'on
It astounds me that people who are religious would never believe that someone would get pregnant without having sex in this day and age so why is it anymore believable all those years ago.

Never knew that either!

“The word ‘virgin’ did not originally mean a woman whose vagina was untouched by any penis, but a free woman, one not betrothed, not bound to, not possessed by any man. It meant a female who is sexually and hence socially her own person. In any version of patriarchy, there are no Virgins in this sense.”

Where's that link from seosamh? I'm not convinced.

Also, you're looking at a modern English word translated from medieval Latin, translated from classical Latin and possibly translated fom the original Greek.

You need to look at how Mary was described in the oldest possible version of the story.

The flood myth is pretty cool origins can be traced back to Babylon and the beginnings of monotheism,

Is it a hand me down history of the sea levels risings as the glaciers melted at the end of the ice age, such as doggerland dissapearing

somewhatslightlydazed - Member
Where's that link from seosamh? I'm not convinced.

Also, you're looking at a modern English word translated from medieval Latin, translated from classical Latin and possibly translated fom the original Greek.

You need to lok at how Mary was described in the oldest possible version of the story.

Came from there, Not idea of it's veracity.

https://professorwhatif.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/what-if-we-used-the-word-%E2%80%98virgin-in-accordance-with-its-original-meaning/

You need to lok at how Mary was described in the oldest possible version of the story.

Well if you do that then you'll see it was never mentioned that she was a Virgin.

Virgin meant also harks to someone who was inexperienced in sex not necessarily meaning no penile insertion. The literal sense we use today wasn't the origin of the word.

Why not try focusing on the part of the bible which outlines a social code for living together harmoniously ? The fact is our modern society and laws are based upon it.

of relavance to this thread:

http://listverse.com/2014/04/09/10-logical-explanations-for-incredible-biblical-tales/

Well if you do that then you'll see it was never mentioned that she was a Virgin.

Well Luke 1.27 in the King James Version describes her as a virgin. The earlier(?) Greek version of Luke 1.27 describes her as "parthenos" which apprently means:

[i]a virgin; a woman who has never had sexual relations; a female (virgin), beyond puberty but not yet married[/i]

Why do you say she was never described as a Virgin? do you have an earlier text/better translation?

What P-Jay says

Why not try focusing on the part of the bible which outlines a social code for living together harmoniously ? The fact is our modern society and laws are based upon it.

This is why it illegal to eat owls and to shave in England in 2014.

The Bible was written by humans. Humans have 'built-in' morals/ethics so they're reflected in the 'core' laws of the Bible. If our modern laws are based upon the bible, the bible is based upon humanity and so our modern laws really reflect humanity not the bible. All human cultures have had laws based on not murdering, stealing or perjuring, regardless of their religion.

My guess is that a lot of them were simply made up. If journalists can invent stuff in this day and age of mass communication they sure as heck could've done it back then.

My guess is that a lot of them were simply made up. If journalists can invent stuff in this day and age of mass communication they sure as heck could've done it back then.

This seems to be the case with the nativity story; which seems to have been added to the gospels at a later date in order that lots of the OT prophesies were fulfilled and to link Jesus to King David.

Old Testament or New Testament?
Old Testament - many of the tales (e.g. Jonah) are re-telling of older stories from Babylon. So Jonah is Gilgamesh in the original etc...
Basic outline, Israelites have a great leader everything is going well and they are beloved of Yahweh, they get a bad leader and Yahweh is angry.

Many of the stories, such as that of Samson, are told from a different perspective as captured in other mythic tales such as the Persian Epic of the Kings.

New Testament - not so sure, however the mythic cycle incorporates some of the Roman Cult of the Invincible Sun... Sol Invictus

A lot of them are older stories from earlier myths and religions absorbed by the Jews on their wanderings
The middle east was the earliest site settled by modern humans as we left Africa
As we spread out from there it still would've been a nexus for trade and passing of skills, technologies and mythologies

In part its an accurate historical record obviously corrupted by those who used it to secure their own agenda, establishing patriarchal control over a desert dwelling people, things like not eating pork make sense In a hot part of the world before fridges !

How would you re-write a bible story for the present day?

Ctrl-A

Ctrl-X

My favourite bible story is the one where Elijah is mocked by children for being bald so god sends a bear to kill the children.

They should read that one more often in Sunday School IMO.

In part its an accurate historical record obviously corrupted by those who used it to secure their own agenda, establishing patriarchal control over a desert dwelling people, things like not eating pork make sense In a hot part of the world before fridges !

It's easy to poke holes in stories of the creation or miracles but that misses the hugely positive elements of the "social code" aspects of religion some of which where written 1000's of years ago and which are still highly relevant today. You cannot argue with no murder, no adultory, no stealing etc

Is it a hand me down history of the sea levels risings as the glaciers melted at the end of the ice age, such as doggerland dissapearing

That time already?

Can we not just create a "sticky" thread - save you all having to come up with new thread titles each time. Why the fascination with all this stuff - it's quite obsessive?

I wouldn't believe much of what is said by Johnny-foreigner in any country now, so why would I believe Chinese whispers, lost in translation over 2000 years ago.
Bollx innit

and on the 3rd day he acescended into heaven

Quite clearly an alien being beamed up to his ship.

There's some fun translation and context stuff with the virgin birth- the hebrew "almah" doesn't mean virgin as we now mean it, it means more or less "young woman of childbearing age who hasn't had a child"- which depending on context can imply virgin, or not. But when the book of Isaiah was translated into Greek, it got translated as "parthenos" which is pretty much the same as the modern "virgin".

So, the gospel Matthew considers the birth of christ as the fulfillment of the prophecy of the birth of immanuel in the book of isaiah, but it's referring to this incorrect translation with the "virgin birth" rather than the actual prophecy.

When you get further into Matthew and Isaiah, it ends up looking like he basically shoehorned the Isaiah prophecy onto the birth of christ and that the prophecy didn't really apply to him anyway. So in other words, Matthew wanted to use the book of Isaiah to give Christ more heavenly legitimacy, rather than because it really fitted.

Luke provides a somewhat contradictory account of the virgin birth, but wasn't an eyewitness in any case, and Mark and John I think don't mention it at all. Ringo just played the drums. So the actual biblical accounts are all a bit shaky.

(I heard somewhere that the support for the virgin birth of christ is stronger in the qu'ran than it is in the bible!)

Ironically whether or not the literal virgin birth is true doesn't really undermine the strength of the story of Jesus at all. But it does undermine the accounts a bit.

(I really like this stuff... Jesus as a real man and prophet is more impressive than Jesus the miraculous imo)

teamhurtmore - Member
That time already?

Can we not just create a "sticky" thread - save you all having to come up with new thread titles each time. Why the fascination with all this stuff - it's quite obsessive?

Agreed - it's a topic that people clearly love to focus on.....

you have to wonder what the convo was twixt mazzer and joe when he discovered she was preggers without him doing the deed.
Maz: I'm pregnant
Joe: huh!? we've not done it, who was it?
Maz: it was God
Joe: What? God!? wtf.
Maz: Yeahhh God the almighty, the creator of all the heavens and earth. One night I'd had a few and he came down from heaven and took me in his arms and took me roughly, behind the sofa. Oh he was good.
Joe: Oh well that's alright then, as long as it was God I don't mind. Anyway up you get on that donkey then god****er.

edit: for some reason I'm reading this back in Eric Idle's voice.

it's a topic that people clearly love to focus on.....

And? Heaven forbid that people should be able to talk about things they want to talk about. I'd take that over your positive contribution of jumping in and whining about it any day. You know that reading every thread isn't mandatory, right? If it bothers you, bleep over to one talking about tyres or phones or parking tickets or something, they almost never crop up.

I'm not sure I like the idea of Doggerland. Doesn't seem the kind of thing you should base a theme park on.

I quite like the idea that Jesus was some sort of proto-David Blaine.

In a time where people were generally pretty uneducated, someone with a handle on early street magic and parlour tricks would've wowed them back then. Water into wine, making food 'appear' from nowhere, magicians have been pulling these stunts for donkey's years. "That's amazing, how do you do it?" the people would ask. "Ah, I'm the son of god" replies Jesus, and a legend is born.

See I tend to think of him as more of a proto robin hood or che guevara, or the likes, a freedom fighter of sorts. The miracles stuff is the stuff that has been added to cover up how he actually achieved such feats via guerilla tactics!

A friend of mine, who is a practising Catholic, says that the fact we're still taking about it, and some are being influenced by it after 2000 years is a pretty strong indication that there's something to the story.

What I never really got a handle on is, if it happened these days no-one would buy it. If Blaine suddenly came over a bit David Ike and started telling everyone he was the Second Coming, we'd watch his miracles and go "yeah, right." Quite why we're so ready to believe ostensibly the same thing based on chinese whispers from a couple of millennia ago but wouldn't believe it now, I don't know.

is a pretty strong indication that there's something to the story

It's a pretty strong indication that people like to believe what they're told.

ays that the fact we're still taking about it, and some are being influenced by it after 2000 years is a pretty strong indication that there's something to the story

We're still talking about Beowulf after 1300 years, at what point do we start believing in Grendel?

but a lot of the stories are much older than jesus, just co-opted into the en-vogue religion

modern humans have been around for 200,000 years or so at least 100,000 in the middle east, id assume that some sort of religion has been with us since the beginning, the last 2000 years is just an eye blink and theres only 1 reason we are still talking about it....writing

Cougar - Moderator
And?

And what? Heaven forbid that anyone might want to make a simple observation.

I'd take that over your positive contribution of jumping in and whining about it any day.

Is there mod licence to make assumptions and misquote on a regular basis, or does that just come with religious threads? Examples, examples....(as in setting)

You know that reading every thread isn't mandatory, right?

Missed that obviously?

Anyway, enjoy the bible obsessions...more bible quotes on STW than at Westminster Cathedral. A font of religious observation, what's not to like?

Is there mod licence to make assumptions and misquote on a regular basis, or does that just come with religious threads? Examples, examples....(as in setting)

I'm terribly sorry, I must've missed the bit where you were taking part in the discussion rather than complaining about it.

And for the purposes of discussions I'm a user just like anyone else, not a moderator, so don't give me that nonsense.

There's nothing wrong with religious threads, what usually goes wrong with them is that people start multi quoting and arguing over nothing. 😆

The flood story is mentioned by a number (6?) different religions/races. God's church had the biggest budget so Moses got the gig.

I'm terribly sorry, I missed the bit where you were complaining

As you were..... 😉

It is possible to make observations. I admire the stamina....

Is there any evidence outside the bible that jesus existed?
I'm a heathen so have no knowledge of these things.

Yes, afaik. Loads of decent books on the subject.

That's a big question.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ

Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ) as portrayed in the Bible is only found in three places: the Bible itself, other early Christian writings, and references by the various early churches (c. 100 CE) to the long-dead leader of those churches. The only known possible contemporaneous (c. 6 BCE through c. 36 CE) source regarding Jesus is Paul of Tarsus who expressly states that he got his information through revelation, not any human being.[1]

The increasingly common view of Jesus among New Testament scholars as of 2007 is that "historical research can indeed disclose a core of historical facts about Jesus" but "the Jesus we find at this historical core is significantly different from the legendary view presented in the New Testament".[2] Some scholars have gone as far as to say there were several possible "Jesus" candidates with no indication of which (if any) is "the" historical Jesus.[3]

[4] Ironically, based on some of the definitions provided, [5][6][7] these could be said to qualify as Christ Myth Theory positions.
A small minority, past[8] and present,[9] believe there is insufficient justification to assume any individual human seed for the stories, representing an extreme in the other end of belief. It should be noted that at least one anthropology paper states in both its abstract and main text "there is not a shred of evidence that a historical character Jesus lived".[10] In June 2014, Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt Sheffield Phoenix Press. ISBN 1-909697-49-2 became "the first comprehensive pro-Jesus myth book ever published by a respected academic press and under formal peer review".[11]

At the risk of sounding like a theist, the lack of evidence doesn't necessarily prove that Jesus didn't exist in some form, I don't suppose record-keeping was accurate and comprehensive back then. A likely explanation to my mind is that our modern "Jesus" is based on a collection of stories, some of which may have originated from an actual men or number of men. Once the legend gains momentum, it's not hard to see how other events may be re-attributed to him.

</speculation>

Is there any evidence outside the bible that jesus existed

Ooh I know this, my daughter just did it in Yr 8 RE, 2 mentions in Josephus (Roman Historian) - end of 1st Century AD, and *checks wiki* one mention in Tactitus in 2nd Century.

Religion has been around a long time, science coupled with modern travel and communication methods have made a huge dent in religion in a very short time indeed.
I did not find out that Father Christmas did not exist until BT installed the phone in our hall in1980, and my main source of information was the 3 encyclopaedias in the dinning room cabinet.

Now with tv and t'net even the popes thrown in the towel.

Once upon a time you only knew what you was told, now it's all there at your fingertips.

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.”

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.

Lovely.

2 Kings 2:23-24New International Version (NIV)
Elisha Is Jeered

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

That'll teach em.

Genesis 38:9-10New International Version (NIV)

9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

Serves the tosser right.

Great stuff. You never hear about any of this on songs of praise.
You're on a roll now bimbler, moar plz.

Genesis 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Mark 11:12-25New International Version (NIV)

12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.

God (Jr) hates figs

I'm not sure as I understand Lemonysam's. Japheth covered up his father's nakedness without looking, and God gave him an erection?

@jools - you're quoting something with modern language, anything written at the time would need translating for us so we have to question the merit of the translation. Secondly we live in a very different world now 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 years after these texts where written so indeed some of the stories are going to seem pretty brutal

@bimbler's quote is an example of where I say these relgions are social codes, Onan done wrong and he had to go 😯

Ham stumbled in on Noah, naked and pissed as a lord. He popped out and told his older brothers so they went out and carefully covered up his junk without looking. Noah wakes up, presumably hungover, and takes exception to what's happened so curses Ham's son, and his progeny to henceforth be slaves to the rest of the family.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Jealous much?

Some of this comes across as really twisted Nick Cave lyrics.

zippykona - Member
Some of this comes across as really twisted Nick Cave lyrics.

Not a story just a social code

What the Bible says about Menstruation

Leviticus 15:19-30
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.
Leviticus 20:18
And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
Ezekiel 18:5-6
But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, and hath not ... come near to a menstruous woman.....

The orginal intention was hoping for some funny re-imaginations of the stories, but regardless, i don't why we shouldn't talk about. I find it interesting from a historical perspective too.

I'm glad you clarified that, seosamh77. Otherwise, in the wake of our last multi-page run on religion that discusses almost exactly this point, I might have thought you were trolling.

... and the woman will lie upon her sofa and will moan to her man... 'get me chocolate and a hot water bottle' and she will be in pain and her tolerance for BS will be lowered and her man will be afraid to talk to his woman and will be advised to leave her presence for a time and go on a bike ride. ....

Iirc, Josephus and Tacticus wrote about the beliefs of Christians, so their writings are evidence of the existence of Christians rather than of Jesus.

Not a story just a social code

What the Bible says about Menstruation

Leviticus 15:19-30
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean ...

Similar social code can be found in places even today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29727875

What about the stories ,books and characters that didn't make it into the final cut,the apocryphal? The accounts and stories the religious establishment suppressed and in some cases destroyed because they were considered dangerous or nonsense or didn't tow the party line. Some interesting stuff in there too.I want to know what happened to Jesus's brothers and sisters and Lilith looks hot,just google her.