Benefit cuts

And for those who love their figures, this is quite interesting:”Between March to May 2016 and June to August 2016, the number of people in work and the number of unemployed people increased.”

What’s the problem with this?

More jobs were created and filled. At the same time even more people arrived in the UK looking for work / and or reached the age where they were no longer in Education.

Definitely some fair points clodhopper.
Although i’d contest that the example of a 40hr job being split into 2x20hr jobs is necessarily ‘underemployment’. I think more and more people are becoming unhappy with work/life balance and opting to work less hours rather than being forced into it.

What’s the problem with this?

No problem with it at all, but it is quite an interesting statistic

Much better to rely on Great Aunt Fannys anecdotes. Take a case in point. ZHC and the gory headlines that go with them. It’s an outrage.

Err, less that 3% of the workforce are on ZHC and for some (not all) that is their choice. That’s the problem with facts they force you to take some perspective which normally clashes with the frothy narrative.

EVP on a train so hard but will reply at some point. Yes it’s a broad point. But think why are wages under LT pressure? Because our LT track record of productivity is appalling (as is the return on capital investment. ) Education lies at the heart of addressing this but as ^ is embroiled in the dogma of faux ideological argument

Although i’d contest that the example of a 40hr job being split into 2x20hr jobs is necessarily ‘underemployment’. I think more and more people are becoming unhappy with work/life balance and opting to work less hours rather than being forced into it.

You’re quoting from your “IT professional handbook” there. The amount of people choosing to reduce their hours are in the very small minority. Part time work is used by employers to reduce their wage and tax bill. Zero or low hour contracts are used to lower sick pay, holiday pay and other entitlements that full time staff take for granted.

Most are minimum wage jobs, earning below the tax threshold due to few hours, which in turn means no tax revenue, and National Insurance contributions (tax in all but name), which means the potential for WTC, CTC, HB, if they are the only wage earner. They are taking out of the welfare system and not contributing. But now you have 2 people not contributing and claiming, rather than 1.

Minimum wage jobs pay is deemed too low to support a small family, so in work benefits are used to top up. The only winners here are the employers paying minimum wages, whilst also making record profits. It’s a state sponsored subsidy scheme to keep share holders happy.

It does nothing to help people out of poverty, but everything to do with profits and dividends.

“More jobs were created and filled. At the same time even more people arrived in the UK looking for work / and or reached the age where they were no longer in Education.”

Now you’re starting to apply a bit of lateral thinking to the issue, looking for reasons why things are the way they appear. This is good.

Another exercise in learning how to look beyond mere numbers, is to look at something like crime statistics. Now, imagine the ONS publishes figures that show crime is ‘falling’. These figures will have been collected from police data (yes, I know!). Would those figures definitely mean that crime has actually fallen? Or simply that less crime has been reported?

Perhaps THM can have a go at that one. 😉

Bigblackshed makes a very good point regarding looking beyond statistics.

————————

“Err, less that 3% of the workforce are on ZHC and for some (not all) that is their choice. “

Why not continue, and go on to explain how this figure is rising (15% increase in 2 years)? Or does that fact not suit your own personal narrative?

education

Education

Go on; say it a third time. 😈

You’re quoting from your “IT professional handbook” there. The amount of people choosing to reduce their hours are in the very small minority.

And do you have statistics to back that up?
I can’t deny that my personal circumstances put me closer to a lot more ‘IT professionals’ than those on minimum wage, but in my experience, those choosing to reduce hours rather than having it forced on them are in the massive majority.

So yes, I could be wrong, but until you have some numbers to say so, my theory is every bit as valid as yours

Bigblackshed makes a very good point regarding looking beyond statistics.

He makes a lot of assumptions, that may even be true, but nothing at all to back them up with. Very easy for anyone to paint a narrative tainted by their own views on the world.

Well, the reality is that it’s a government department staffed mainly by people on relatively low wages, who are under constant pressure to produce statistics demanded of them by the governmen

What??? Have you or do you know anyone who works for the ONS or do you have data on their staff?

Why not continue, and go on to explain how this figure is rising (15% increase in 2 years)? Or does that fact not suit your own personal narrative?

Clod – you want figures now??? With your distaste of figures and facts. Make you mind up. But lets indulge your new found passion. Lets see….

The football players from the school – remember them, they were a minority on the decline, so you may have forgotten? – are now in a new league with 10 teams with squads of 20 players. 200 people in all.

Last year there were only 9 teams – so 180 players. Of them 176 were on FT contracts, but 4 preferred to be on ZHC.

This year, there are 200 players. Of them 194 are on FT contracts, but 6 are now on ZHC.

The number of players on ZHC has increased by 50% in one – yes one – year alone. Imagine that compounded. A dramatic increase.

How big an issue is ZHC in the league?

I don’t think everybody in the Tory party actually set out to create an underclass

No, but they seem to think that if you end up a member of the underclass it’s your own fault and hence not their problem.

Oh and my wife is someone who wants a ZHC.

I don’t think everybody in the Tory party actually set out to create an underclass

The labour party did that. That’s who votes for them – the more people in benefits the better.

kennyp – Member

Both our tax and benefits systems are far more complicated than they should be, but that’s also another thread.

I’ll happily be corrected, but isn’t it the case that for every £1 in tax collected by HMRC, 49p is spent in collecting it? 😯

I’m also seem to remember that there was an investigation into benefit fraud which was halted when they found out that a lot of the fraud was being conducted by staff(?). 😕

“do you know anyone who works for the ONS”

Yes. Well, I used to. They left because the pay and conditions were shit for the job they were expected to do.

“Clod – you want figures now??? With your distaste of figures and facts. Make you mind up. “

Where did I ever say I had a ‘distaste’ of statistics/figures/numbers? Tell you what; why not go away and find some statistical evidence to back this prepostrous nonsense up? 😆

“Very easy for anyone to paint a narrative tainted by their own views on the world.”

Yes, it is, look:

“The labour party did that. That’s who votes for them – the more people in benefits the better.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/14/housing-benefit-coalition-people-claiming

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/child-poverty-increases-low-income-families-tory-cuts-conservative-government-austerity-a7340466.html

http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/08/06/1-million-jobless-left-out-of-uk-govt-unemployment-figures/

Look THM; I’m using figures to support my own argument! 😀

Careful it might become a habit

😆

Interesting to match discourse here and in the poppy thread

sbob – Member
I’ll happily be corrected, but isn’t it the case that for every £1 in tax collected by HMRC, 49p is spent in collecting it?

HMRC cost v collection (extracts from Commons select committee report Nov 15):

HMRC collected £517.7 billion from UK taxpayers in 2014-15, some £11.9 billion more than in 2013-14. Total tax revenue has increased in each of the past 5 years, during which HMRC reduced its running costs from £3.4 billion to £3.1 billion. HMRC has thereby improved its ratio of revenue collected per £1 of administrative expenditure from £138.14 in 2010-11 to £166.95 in 2014-15.

HMRC estimates its compliance work (tackling those who do not comply with their tax liabilities) saved £26.6 billion in 2014-15. The July 2015 budget announced that HMRC would be given a further £800 million to collect an additional £7.2 billion in tax revenue from its compliance work between 2015 and 2020.

Cheers, I think it may have been in relation to income tax collection only, can’t remember where I read it.

He makes a lot of assumptions, that may even be true, but nothing at all to back them up with. Very easy for anyone to paint a narrative tainted by their own views on the world.

No assumptions have been made in my “narrative”. Bitter personal experience.

In my experience the poverty trap of benefits, in work benefits, and the minimum wage, especially those in business that use the minimum wage excuse to keep wages low and therefore people trapped, is a self fulfilling ideology. Any business that uses people desperate enough to accept the demeaning minimum wage, then claim they cannot at pay any more, despite paying themselves “good” salaries with all of the trimmings don’t deserve to be in business.

One example from my long history of seeing the zero hour contract / minimum wage: I was between jobs, made redundant for the second time in 15 months, the summer of 2008. I accepted a 6 month temporary minimum wage job, working contracted full time hours. They could demand extra hours at any time, in the contract along with signing out of the work time directive, for no extra premium, it would just be deducted from my annual hours total. 6 weeks in and I was told I’d be working the next 4 months, permanent 12 hour night shift 7 days a week. No discussion. But I’d be paid my normal salary. No extra pay, just less hours at some point, at their whim. My wife had a minor operation in the November but then developed pneumonia after she came home. I was sacked because I took one day off to care for her and look after my two sons, my youngest is autistic. I was then refused JSA, HB, etc. because I contributed to my dismissal. 3 months with no income.

So, no assumptions. Experience.