Benefit cuts

I very much doubt that a man who seems to be so depressed that he can’t fill in a form is going to find the energy to mug your Gran. Do you seriously view benefits as an insurance against crime? I can’t believe the lack of empathy shown in this thread

Right to buy, 100% mortgages, no national house building programming, tax avoidance allowed on house purchase, have **** anyone under 40

EDIT: Sod it.

Bearnecessities, we appreciate your comments on this thread. One of STW’s great assets is that we can get comments from people who actually know things.

So then….those STW’ers on here who post about struggling to find work ..do people think they’re lazy feckless spongers? How about your friends who have been made redundant? Was it their fault? How about your friends kids who cannot find work after working hard at Uni?

For those who argue there are scroungers out there….I hope you include your friends and family in that category too because ‘we’re all in it together’ remember…

Here’s a thought, it’s a very odd one, but it could work……..

Raise income tax?

Why not just collect the tax that is due?

PAYE seems clear enough, just apply this to everyone. Even Jeremy Vine and Jimmy Carr.

Why not just collect the tax that is due?

Well, quite obviously they do attempt to do that.

But raising income tax would net more money than pursuing tax evaders I’m sure.

£108bn was on pensions. Given that’s increased by 25% in 4 years, I think we should be addressing that first.

Pension costs should be zero. We should move to a totally funded scheme, ie everyone saves and it’s compulsory (Singapore, Australia etc). Governments over the years (decades) have dodged this, the cost of converting state final salary pensions into defined contribution would be 15-25% increase in wage bill but at least it would be clear what the real costs are.

We have a generous welfare system, have a look in Asia, Latin America or even the USA

As for raising taxes people won’t vote for that, even Labour know that so they say taxes won’t be raised for you (our others) just others (ie the rich). I do wonder quite how many here would vote for French levels of tax inc VAT on food so that others could get better welfare. Also you can spend money far faster than you can raise it via taxation. It’s the spending side which needs to be controlled.

Why not just collect the tax that is due?
PAYE seems clear enough, just apply this to everyone. Even Jeremy Vine and Jimmy Carr.

There is a lot of merit in this. Start with the BBC and make all payments PAYE. There is a huge amount of tax evasion in the media and entertainment industry. I wonder what Russell Brand’s tax rate is on his £ millions per anum 10% ?

Ok, two anecdotal views.
I was briefly on job seekers in my 20s when I didn’t know what I wanted to do and I’d cocked up another job…..it was humiliating but the £70/week put fuel in my car and allowed me to attend interviews until I was back in gainful employment…..and for me that’s what it’s about, a stop gap while you sort yourself out.

Now let’s take my sister. She has a child, this helps massively by the way…..her flat is pretty much paid for, she contributes chicken feed rent from the 16hrs work she sometimes does as a carer.

She is at Uni, my other half can’t afford Uni and I can’t afford to do my masters….but guess what?….the good old state are funding my sis through Uni.

I drive a £900 Golf….she has a brand new Nissan Juke, just another perk of playing the single parent benefit system eh!?

She is also covered in thousands of pounds of tattoos and attends a bodybuilding gym several times a week, who pays for that?….that’s not job seekers that’s a lifestyle choice….add in the latest smart phone, cigs etc….it’s not a bad life actually, bugger it I’m having a sprog and giving up work too!

I love her to bits, she’s my family obviously….but she really is one of those mickey takers you see on sensationalist tv programs….and she’s not unique that’s the frightening thing, she has friends (parasites) in similar positions.

Anyway I’m out,

.

@jambayla…I bet if you had a disabled child you wouldn’t be writing we have a ‘generous Welfare system’.

@deviant..I know many people on benefits too. They can’t afford a car or to eat properly. Not sure how your sister manages on just benefits to live the lifestyle she does. I suggest it’s either because criminal activity is involved or she’s getting money from outside of the state handout e.g. family, friends.

just going back to the original post.

surely the level of housing benefit available is a controlling factor on the rents being asked? adjust that level and the ‘market’ should adjust accordingly.

*awaits thread from BTL landlord complaining on lack of tenants who can afford the rent they need to pay the mortgage*

Edenvalleyboy…my parents are both retired social workers, if you are handy with the appropriate forms there seems to be no end of perks to being unemployed these days….my sister brings them her paperwork, they fill it out for her, hey-presto she’s on easy street again.
I hate her for it because of my political views but if the system is that open to abuse why not help yourself!

I watched a depressing program years ago with John Prescott who naively believed everyone wanted to work and there was no such thing as a benefit scrounge….it was almost embarrassing for him when he followed a (19?) old girl around for a week trying to find her work.
She had no qualifications but wouldn’t entertain a manual or ‘dirty’ job….being a cleaner was apparently beneath her, actually for once Prescott looked genuinely shocked, it took him away from his Westminster bubble and made him realise there are swathes of people like this up and down the country.

What happened to the girl? Who knows, she seemed to think she was entitled to an exec level job in the City….we’re still probably paying for her now.

@deviant..Ok – so your sister does have inside help and knowledge. The average person doesn’t have that knowledge or skill (many people I know haven’t the skill to write the forms properly let alone wangle the system).

Worth noting – I know people are wangling the system but I do not believe it is as bad as suggested and there are far worse culprits in society e.g. tax evasion by multi nationals etc who can and should be paying in to our society. Politicians pick on the vulnerable instead of targeting the more powerful.

Question though (not directed at you @devinat). What’s the difference in wangling the benefits system (for the minority who are) or tax avoidance? Both cost the system but one is deemed acceptable whilst the other is not…

We have a generous welfare system

Said the man who has never had any direct dealings with it ever, and never will, and who’s going entirely off deliberately misleading anecdotal ‘evidence’

You say its better than the US? What isn’t? They don’t have a welfare state. No doubt you’d also have us follow the example of their healthcare system too? Which, quite frankly, is a disgrace for any developed nation

So the system is full of loopholes. This is obvious.

But that should not mean we abandon those who genuinely need help. The system clearly needs reform, but those in genuine need must not be allowed to suffer.

“The system” is a constant state of reform.

Indeed.

What we need is effective intelligent reform. Which seems to be beyond the abilities of politicians.

Why not just collect the tax that is due?
PAYE seems clear enough, just apply this to everyone. Even Jeremy Vine and Jimmy Carr.

This. It’s well beyond a joke now.

Apple, Google etc are all as bad and should have their products/services banned from the UK/EU until they start paying proper tax, that’d be my solution.
Take a huge market away from them and watch them cough up soon enough, bastards.

Banning Google in the UK would bring the country to a standstill!

A start would be to stop awarding government contracts to companies who employ aggressive tax avoidance schemes. It seems uniquely perverse to be giving over huge wads of taxpayers money to companies who pay no tax.

But they won’t do this, as what has been pointed out countless times already, its far easier to target the poor, as they can be demonised to the point where no hardship they have to endure could ever be deemed unjust

This is worth a read for the ‘we have a generous benefits system’ mob

“As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as they please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome.”

Good post binners.

I very much doubt that a man who seems to be so depressed that he can’t fill in a form is going to find the energy to mug your Gran. Do you seriously view benefits as an insurance against crime? I can’t believe the lack of empathy shown in this thread

What I’m saying is, some will fold, get the kids taken, get made homeless, even end up as the Tory party’s ever growing suicide statistics.
Others, the more resourceful will turn to crime.
And who will be the victim of that crime but the easy pickings of a pseudo middle class privileged IT worker…

And I hope the last comment doesn’t refer to me, I’ve been an activist for disability benefits rights, unemployment rights, workfare and bedrooms tax since it was made clear to me the way this regime was headed around 2011.
Im an IWW member. I support Black Triangle.
Because, even though none of the above affect me personally, There for the grace of God go I.
And even if one of the offensive t*ats off here were to suffer a downfall in fortune , ill be fighting your corner

The biggest issue of benefit cuts is the collateral damage of those who truly need it..e.g. collateral damage costs to the NHS bills due to ill health or collateral damage in the form of suicide etc.

It’s absolutely *ucked up if one can justify this at the same time as accepting the lack of effort to tackle huge corporations avoiding tax, massive payouts to chief execs who haven’t performed well but shareholders are protection their own interest etc.

No surprise though, those making these decisions and upholding the status quo are benefiting fron the unequal system …

@jambayla…I bet if you had a disabled child you wouldn’t be writing we have a ‘generous Welfare system’.

Well, I’ve spent four years looking after my autistic daughter as a single parent

It was bloody hard work

However

Housing association flat
rent paid
council tax paid
£121 /week Child tax credits
£62 /week carers allowance
£45.60 /week IS
£307 /month DLA
£82.80 /month Child Ben

Which we were pretty comfortable with, and yes, I thought it was generous. Thank you very much everyone for funding it, it was important for both me and her, and I think we made some real progress, and it really wasn’t all plain sailing (and, for the record, social services are a bunch of incompetent bastards)

@nifan…so you’re in favour of benefits …good to hear..

So you’re now advocating the slashing of the benefits that you yourself have enjoyed, to potential future claimants?

How very ‘Boomer’ of you.

Ninfan do you think you were entitled to all that?

And I hope the last comment doesn’t refer to me

No, not specifically, just to some of the callousness displayed in general. I accept what you’re trying to say regarding turning to crime. Speaking as somebody who grew up in a relatively poverty stricken area those I knew who turned to crime were morally bankrupt long before benefits came in to play. That’s for a different thread though.

Most of the folk who I know who are on benefits to any degree hate the fact that they are failing to support themselves and / or their families. Maybe I am naive, but I’d like to think that’s the case for the majority and it’s, like everything else, only the minority that makes interesting (inflammatory) reading.

Of course ninfin was entitled, he was bringing up a future contributant to society, with some particular challenges.
All parents should receive help to raise our future tax payers, artists, musicians, carers …

@nifan…so you’re in favour of benefits …good to hear..

Since when have I not been? I dont think anyone is against benefits for people who need them, its the ones who don’t need them but choose them thats the problem

So you’re now advocating the slashing of the benefits that you yourself have enjoyed, to potential future claimants?

Where have I advocated the ‘slashing’ of benefits to anyone? However I’m fully supportive of a robust system that limits benefits to those in need and prevents people malingering

Ninfan do you think you were entitled to all that?

Hmm, ‘entitled’ is a strange word – I certainly fulfilled all the statutory requirements for those benefits and received the amount I was supposed to, however I have paid ‘in’ to the system for years when working and I am very happy that the system was there as a safety net for me when I, and my daughter, needed it… I think I would say that I don’t feel people who have contributed or are not contributing anything to society in some form should expect to get ‘something for nothing’ – but, for example, in addition to looking after my daughter I did some part time work, did a shed load of voluntary for a cycling charity and some other community work. If however I had sat on my arse all day watching Jeremy Kyle, then I think I would have been taking the piss out of the taxpayer.

Ninfan; my very rough calculations suggest you were getting something like £490 a week in benefits excluding housing/CT. Which strikes me as a reasonable amount for someone looking after a child with a disability; I have no idea, it may be nowhere near enough.

This benefits cap is one of the most savage, heartless and ideologically bankrupt policies I’ve seen in a long time. The current situation is rapidly worsening, and we will only see a much more severe decline in our society now.

Some commentators cry ‘but where will the money come from’, and ‘if you haven’t got it, you can’t spend it’. Well, MPs recently voted to spend £200+ billion on a useless outdated nuclear missile system. It’s funny how they can find the money to spend on lining the pockets of arms manufacturers, whilst being happy to literally let people starve.

I think I would say that I don’t feel people who have contributed or are not contributing anything to society in some form should expect to get ‘something for nothing’

So you really would kick people out on the streets?

However I’m fully supportive of a robust system that limits benefits to those in need and prevents people malingering

So does almost everyone. The problem is that people focus on the malingerers, and those in genuine need suffer. This is wrong. And so far it has been an insoluble problem, at least for those whose job it has been.

But given that some fraud is inevitable – it is better to jut pay for the fraud to ensure that the genuinely needy are helped than to let them suffer.

Ninfan would be excluded from the BenCap.

Facts people, facts.

The benefits cap would see you getting less than that,

No, it wouldn’t, as it doesn’t apply to families with anyone in receipt of DLA or carers allowance.

essentially, it doesn’t apply to anyone who cant work, but only to those who could work but aren’t, I cant really say thats unreasonable – though I would express concern that there are some areas where there are a clear shortage of jobs, but I’m unsure if the cap ceases to apply if you are doing work/training that has been arranged for you.

So you really would kick people out on the streets?

on the proviso that if ‘bloke’ turned up to the job centre looking for 16 hours work and could be guaranteed that he would be found something (work/training/picking up litter) in order to exempt him from the cap, then yes.

So does almost everyone. The problem is that people focus on the malingerers, and those in genuine need suffer. This is wrong. And so far it has been an insoluble problem, at least for those whose job it has been.

But given that some fraud is inevitable – it is better to jut pay for the fraud to ensure that the genuinely needy are helped than to let them suffer.

Really? Its better to let people sit on their arses than contribute to society? I fully agree that those in genuine need shouldn’t suffer in the process, but I cant support an approach of “ah, well, its too difficult, so we’ll just let them get away with it” as that undermines the system for everyone else, both those that deserve it, and those who pay for it.

but only to those who could work but aren’t

What about those who want to work but no-one will employ?

After all, even if there are vacancies, not every employer will want to give them to every seeker…

What about those who want to work but no-one will employ?

well if there wasnt readily available work, then surely immigration wouldn’t be so high….;-)

“Ninfan would be excluded from the BenCap.

Facts people, facts.”

Apologies. My mistake there. It shows just how out of touch somebody in my extremely privileged situation is; I have very little current knowledge of the benefits system, which appears very complicated. However, the point still stands that the cap is incredibly nasty and will be socially destructive.

Ninfan had the choice not to receive the benefits if he thought them too ‘generous’.

“essentially, it doesn’t apply to anyone who cant work, but only to those who could work but aren’t, I cant really say thats unreasonable”

It also appears to apply to those who are working but not earning enough to live on. In fact, a massive amount of people in the UK. I’d say what is ‘unreasonable’, is that the taxpayers are subsidising cheap labour for many companies making sizeable profits.

And then there’s the quite frankly obscene system of assessment for benefits, which is fundamentally not fit for purpose.

Coroner’s ‘ground-breaking’ verdict: Suicide was ‘triggered’ by ‘fit for work’ test

And a massive chunk of benefits payments goes on rent to private landlords, an amount which is increasing exponentially. And then we’re back to more tory vote-winning bribery…