Believe in Fat

Being in these here dusty climbs, I’ve had to change my training. I was cardio, cardio, cardio i.e. shed loads of riding (200+ miles a week)back in the UK. Now I am doing more weights and my cardio is 5k on a concept 2 a few times a week with some cross trainer stuff thrown in. I have noticed a change in my body shape i.e more muscles my weight has gone up but my body fat has decreased (I’m not as squidgy at the waist). I’ve been taking 2x slow release protein shakes a day (bulk powders choc chip one is yummy) and my hunger pangs have been muchos decreased.

however, diet can go a long way to managing the weight loss/gain cased by the changing BMR of people suffering from thyroid disorders, its difficult when the meds aren’t at the right level for the individual, but once they’re stabilised, adjusting diet can be used to manage weight gain…. more effectively that weight loss in my experience.

Sorry Phil but that is not true. It’s a complicated condition and the medical profession do not look at the whole picture.

ive been playing with sugar and hunger over the last couple of weeks.

i eat a small portion of porridge, made with water, at about half seven in the morning. Then i either ride or drive to work, regardless of which, I am “starving” at half past ten, when i have a handful of nuts (ok, two handfulls, one walnuts, one almonds)

I have been doing this for months to get the routine nailled and ensure that i think i am hungry at that exact time.

The last two weeks, i have followed the porridge with a small glass of grapefruit juice.

I now get the same hunger 30mins earlier.

Well i was interested [/geek]

depends on the medical professionals…. i’ve known people get amazing support for dealing with their thyroid disorders… i dont really appreciate people calling my experiences not true its getting a bit irritating now as i’m sitting less than 20feet away from a gentleman who suffers from hypothyroidism and he’s successfully lost the 3 stone he put on when his thyroid started messing around through adjusting his diet.

my mum didn’t exactly receive a poor level of care with her thyroid cancer and the follow up treatments of constant adjustments to her meds now half her necks been removed.

one persons bad experience does not mean it applies to everyone.

thyroid levels are relatively easy to check and i’ve worked with many, many patients, more women than men, who have been diagnosed with hypothyroidism and have recieved excellent treatment, despite the condition being complicated my multiple other problems.

So are you saying that the law of thermodynamics is wrong?

Obviously not. But as I said before, the body is not a simple heat engine. I’ve typed all this out before. Not all calories are the same. You might as well ask why diesel engines are more efficient than petrol ones. Because they work differently and diesel is not petrol. Carbohydrate is not fat, and the body handle them differently.

i dont really appreciate people calling my experiences not true

That is clearly not what I am trying to say. I am saying that calories in vs calories out is not the whole picture, and is not very useful for exercising people trying to lose a bit more.

Remember I am talking about people who exercise. This adds another set of variables to the equation, or at least strongly increases the significance of the same variables. You seem to be saying (correct me if I am wrong)

Weight change = calories from food – BMR – exercise

Yes?

I’m saying this:

Weight change = f1(calories from fat) + f2(calories from carbs) – f3(calories out from bmr) – f4(glycogen burned during exercise) – f5(fat burned during exercise)

where

f1 and f2 are functions of the metabolism of the individial (which is genetic and historical I reckon)
f3 is partly genetic and historical (not to mention environmental…)
f4 and f5 are a function of the type of exercise done and the individual’s metabolism.. and the psychological disposition when exercising of course…

f1 and f2 are also linked circularly to f4 and f5 modified by a f6 which is a willpower function dependent on a load of things…

TSH and T4 are pretty easy to test for and diagnosis is relatively straight forward with hypothyroidism, thyroxine a pretty effective drug…. CG, how much thyroxine have they put you on and have you seen any reduction in symptoms?

EDIt – molly the experiences thing is where CG said what i said isn’t true, despite me stating it was my experience, not a universal fact.

Imo its easy to diet and lose weight but its the weight and where it comes from thats matters . Ok dropping your calories will result in weight loss theow in cardio and its even quicker but rest assured as i learnt its not just fat you are losing. Your body needs to find the energy from somewhere if the calories are not there then say goodbye to mucle…

Slow and steady is the key to make sure you lose the fat while preserving as much mass as possible. As i foud out…. The hard way 🙁

You might as well ask why diesel engines are more efficient than petrol ones

Because diesel is more energy dense than petrol, of course! It’s still comes down to calorific balance.

Phil – the TSH test is treated as gospel by the medical profession BUT it doesn’t give the whole picture. Unfortunately the NHS refuse to accept that thyroxine doesn’t work for everyone and, furthermore, will not carry out testing for other levels. Or if they do agree then the lab will not do them, with the lab citing they have a budget regardless of the GP having requested them!

I have taken thyroxine and was considerably worse despite dosage being increased. My (roadie) GP fobbed me off, far easier to treat me as a moaning menopausal women rather than someone who has exercised regularly for 20 years including running a marathon and coaching youngsters.

I’ve had to do a lot of reading on this subject and, believe me, it’s not easy with perpetual brain fog which is one of the many symptoms.

GPs that I’ve consulted with actually know very little about the thyroid and I’m afraid to say they’re more interested in covering their backsides. At no time was it suggested I be referred to an endocronologist.

What the medics fail/won’t acknowledge is that there can be a conversion problem with the active hormone. This is my problem and no matter how much thyroxine I would be given, it would not make any difference. It is estimated, not by the Royal College of Physicians et all obviously, is that around 15% of sufferers do not respond to thyroxine.

I’ve had to go outside of the NHS, spent huge amounts of money having private blood tests done and, lo and behold, the results clearly indicate that my body is not working properly with some levels off the scale!

Now I have to import pharmaceuticals from abroad and, whilst it’s early days, there is an improvement in my health after 3 years.

I’m sorry if I offended you, you know me and you know that’s not my way of doing things. 🙂

Because diesel is more energy dense than petrol, of course! It’s still comes down to calorific balance.

That’s not the only reason.

Diesel engines have greater thermodynamic efficiency due to the compression ratio, and also no pumping losses at the throttle body.

The fuel is different, and it’s used in a different way – that’s the point I’m trying to make. Likewise fat and carbohydrate, different muscle fibre types, and different kinds of exercise.

PS I’m also concerned about Mrs Grips’ thyroid despite her function being tested as ok a couple of years ago.

that sucks CG 🙁 well done on battling through and getting to the stage you’re at despite the brain fog! i know you didn’t mean to offend me 🙂

psychiatrists tend to know a lot more about thyroid disorders than GP’s as it comes up quite regularly in mental health hence my experiences of seeing good treatment and in the case of my mum, endocrinologists involved due to the cancer and resulting implications of having pretty much everything chopped out!

not referring to you CG with this bit of info, but if anybody is reading this, looking at their belly an thinking ‘ohh i might have a thyroid problem that’s causing this……’

it can be the other way round, which then kickstarts a cycle ther perpetuates itself:

The other thing that happens when a person gains too much weight is that the body will produce an excess of the insulin hormone. This insulin will then begin to interfere with another hormone named thyroxin produced by the thyroid gland and thus you will get a “slow metabolism” which will cause the person to keep gaining weight. Many people suffer from hypothyroidism (a slow thyroid) which makes them gain a lot of weight. Their condition of overweight will make their hypothyroidism worse and they will then begin to feel other bodily manifestations such as: losing their hair, cold extremities (hands and feet), depression, insomnia, tiredness or weakness and a lot of difficulty losing weight.

this process is more common in women:

When a woman is overweight, the fat in her body will begin to produce an excess of the estrogen hormone, generating a hormonal unbalance which Dr. John Lee, an American endocrinologist, calls “estrogen predominance”. This is a condition in which the excess estrogen begins to interfere with the rest of the hormones in the body and causes hormonal problems.

The sequence is: EXCESS FAT which converts into EXCESS ESTROGEN produced by the aromatase enzyme will procure HORMONAL PROBLEMS caused by “estrogen predominance”.

so molly, and please dont take offence at this, if you’re worried about your wifes thyroid levels, if (and this is a poor assumption from me going on you being worried about her thyroid) she is overweight, then it might not be the thyroid that caused it, but there is a chance excess weight could now be influencing her thyroid thus making it worse/harder to combat.

So.. how does being fat itself CAUSE more insulin to be produced? (Genine question)

phil – I’m glad you’ve confirmed that you’re not offended! Do hope your Mum is on the mend, must have been so awful for her.

Some good info you’ve posted there. 🙂 On a serious note though it tends to more women that are affected by this.

Three years ago I was probably at my fittest, size 10, and really enjoying doing lots of riding.

Fast forward to now, my weight is constantly increasing and am now a size 18 which is classified as obese. Lumps of hair fall out, all my eyebrows have fallen out together with some eyelashes, body temperature is always low and I check anyway with thermometer, get out of breath walking up the stairs, insomnia, no libido, etc etc.

It’s also worth mentioning that many thyroid sufferers have other auto-immune conditions.

It’s rubbish believe me. 🙁

molgrips – ygm. 🙂

fat around the belly is what is known in medical circles as ‘metabolically active fat’ which inhibits the efficacy of the insulin your pancreas is trying to synthesis, because of the human bodies wonderful ability to work its hardest to maintain homoeostasis the pancreas desperately tries to produce more insulin to balance out the inhibition from the fat. that’s why people with belly fat are at a higher risk of developing type 2 diabetes from what i understand.

that’s just what i remember from uni… i’m sure somebody will come along and correct me soon 🙂

CG – mum’s doing better thank you for asking :), although new lump has popped up so bit worried… hardest thing about going through it all was having her back operated on twice at the same time as it was all crumbling away *what a fun future i have in store!*

So.. how does being fat itself CAUSE more insulin to be produced

fat around the belly is what is known in medical circles as ‘metabolically active fat’
Which produces Leptin, a hormone that signals the brain to feed.
which inhibits the efficacy of the insulin
Insulin resistance, related to age and diet.
your pancreas is trying to synthesis, because of the human bodies wonderful ability to work its hardest to maintain homoeostasis the pancreas desperately tries to produce more insulin to balance out the inhibition from the fat.(insulin resistance)
more insulin robs the person of calories as it stores those calories as fat. This leaves the person still feeling hungry and feeling lethargic, so they move less and eat more. Increased weight and lethargy are results of obesity, not causes.
that’s why people with belly fat are at a higher risk of developing type 2 diabetes from what i understand.
Correct as eventually, this snowball sequence of events overwhelmes the pancreas which can not produce enough insulin.
And then you’re into T2D.

EDIT:

Step back from the detail for a moment to gain some perspective and what you might appreciate is that the body has these sub-systems of the edocrine process, which interact with and influence one another.
Some of these systems are reasonably robust others appear less so. In cases of increased / excessive weight. The system is now not functioning as it should. Possibly due to thyroid issues, or as I suspect is more often the case. Its down to calorically dense, carbohydrate leaning diet. When these processess and systems within our bodies encounter this type of diet, they can be effected, detrimentally.

Increased weight and lethargy are results of obesity, not causes.

I think they are both.

agreeing with molly there… you get fat, it gets harder to move, you move less, you get fatter. you cant become obese without first getting fat! but as mentioned, its a cycle that perpetuates itself so they’re both cause and result

Do you remember the vid I posted where Prof Lustig describes a scenario of having too much / elevated levels of insulin in the blood ?.

He describes the process that the insulin takes cals from the subject and stores them. No option or choice in that. The subject then doesn’t get the benefit of all the cals consumed so feels under-fed / cals deficient. So, the subject then eats more to compensate.
Now they may feel like getting up and doing something, but they’ve also eaten more cals than they ought to and you have your caloric excess. Which then, obeying the 1st law of TD, means weight gain.

Q;
Does a child grow because they are eating more ?, or does that child eat more because they are growing ?…

Do heavy people eat more because they are growing sideways, or are they growing sideways because they are eating more ?.

so what is the answer?
ignore your hunger?

Just to clarify the leptin thing. Lower levels result in hunger, higher levels result in hunger suppression. Under normal circumstances this would allow an individual to maintain a sensible percentage of body fat. However, a weakness in the body’s weight control system is that leptin receptors in the brain can become resistant to leptin if levels are always elevated ( the subject having higher body fat ).

Leptin receptor resistance will rsult in the brain thinking leptin is low and so stimulates hunger.

Do you remember the last thread we had where I said it was harder for some people to lose weight than others?

And I got the piss ripped out of me?

so what is the answer?
ignore your hunger

Simplistic answer (sorry) is to work to preserve your insulin and leptin sensitivity, by avoiding massive amounts of carbohydrate in your diet.

I was slowly putting on weight, and it reached a point a while back where I thought enough is enough…
I wouldn’t have said I was fat, but I was getting a bit flabby.

I used fitness pal to get an idea of where the calories were coming from & what I should eat to lose about 1lb a week.
Generally, on the weeks where I only keep my eating in check, I either lose <1lb or 1lb. On the weeks where I get a few decent rides in, I generally lose 2lbs.

So – for me, the exercise seems to usefully supplement the change in diet.

A lot of it is willpower & as mentioned above I find it easier to abscond from snacks if I have exercised as I feel like I will be undoing all the good work.

What I have realised is that ‘most’ people who are fat eat too much & don’t do much exercise. I don’t believe there is much getting away from that.

And I got the piss ripped out of me?

Not by me, I haven’t done that for ages as I know, to my own satisfaction, that this can be the case.

When you eat can have as much impact as what you eat. I fuel up in a morning, eat sensibly through the day and don’t have much in the evening. Works for me. I’m reasonably active in my job and do an hours cardio/2hrs weights at the gym of a weekend.

I’m not quite as careful with what I eat as I was 6 months ago, but holding steady at around 11.5st – and I’m quite buff. I was 13.5st pre-health kick and have been as much as 15.5st.

Probably 50/50 diet and exercise for me, maybe 60/40

Time for *that* pic Artist 😉

Funnily enough diet, I-diet worked for me to loose about 1.5 stone.

Did cost more in terms of buying more lean meat and fish than i did previously.

Time for *that* pic Artist

Nah, its too old – I’m much buffer now 😉

😆

50% ulcerative proctitis, 30% diet, 20% exercise

Have you ever been fat? Would you be actually properly fat if you just sat around?

I don’t know about properly fat but I put two stone on in three months when I broke my knee, and I was still fairly active during that period.