Bad skills course session review

I’ve done two group sessions now and wouldn’t do another one – I’d stump up another for a one to one session. It’s expensive but at least you can ensure that it is tailored to your needs.

I’ve had a session with both Jedi and Great Rock. I enjoyed them both – neither transformed my riding but I did take things away from them both.

I thought they were both really good coaches but a lot depends on your attitude when you attend – I was really excited about the first one with Ed and took a lot away. I was a bit grumpy when I saw Jedi and I think that tainted my experience a bit (rubbish trip down etc). The group dynamic on the course with Ed was better than the one with Jedi where everyone kept themselves to themselves.

The course with Ed are pretty relaxed – it felt more like a day out riding with mates (although it was structured) whereas Jedi’s course felt like a course. As good as Jedi’s facilities are, for me they bear very little resemblance to what I actually ride and I’ve found it harder to put some of his stuff into practice on local trails. Whereas the course with Great Rock was on trails that I’d actively seek out to ride so stuff made a lot of sense.

The issue with group sessions is that there always seems to be one or two people who seem more advanced than others or get things quicker and others who struggle. Those who need more help naturally get it at the expense of others.

Where a lot of people benefit is that Jedi gives you the confidence to do the jumps and drops at his premises, and those that couldn’t jump suddenly find themselves sailing over small gap jumps. This is great, but it’s done at a controlled speed, in a controlled environment. It’s a bit different on the trails, and I suspect many people that visit Jedi and do his array of smaller jumps struggle to covert that to natural stuff on a tricky trail.

This was me. I could do his 3 foot drops and get reasonable air on his tabletops with no problems, but still don’t have much confidence on the same ones on my real trails.

I’ve been on a couple of group courses and hope my 2p’s worth is useful to others considering tuition;

In the past I’ve done a few sports/hobbies and received tuition. I learnt to fly and held a pilots license, I learnt to drive a racing car and hold a race license, blah, blah. I guess these experiences are my reference point.

My observations (in no particular order)

– It’s often difficult to know what exactly the level of tuition is aimed at, prior to attending the course. What exactly is ‘intermediate’? A previous post said >>the intermediate course and was pretty clear up front that it’d be done on reds and blacks and require a decent level of skill<< well…if I could ride round reds and black routes with a decent level of skill, I would not consider that being intermediate. I guess I’d probably consider myself a pretty good MTBer, perhaps even advanced (I’m not BTW).

– I found that some of the obstacles we rode were just wayyyy too challenging and that we dove in at the deep end too much, to early. Perhaps this is back to my previous point about ‘what is intermediate’ and knowing what course to be on. Regardless, if the course includes leaning drop offs for example, I can’t see the point in trying to get someone to ride off a 5 foot drop, when you haven’t yet shown them how to do a 2 foot drop properly and made sure they can do it reliably and understand the basics. IMHO effective training is about doing things in a graduated way, start small and build up. I guess what I’m saying is even if a course is intermediate, if it includes a new skill, the starting point for that skill tuition should be as a beginner to that particular skill.

– For me, I think i’ll be going with 1-1 tuition in the future. Plus, I’d want to define what we got out of the day and make sure we approached skills/obstacles in a gradual and structured kind of way, with explanation before and after. I’d rather attend a course and come away having properly learnt one core skill that i could then use in the real world, than stumble through 7 or 8 tasks, learning little. Perhaps for me a tuition session working only on berms and cornering for example would be best, making sure that by the end of the session we had done so much work on the subject that we had really moved this skill on for me and explored almost every aspect of it.

– Although it comes naturally to some people I’m sure, riding a MTB to a good standard off-road is difficult. It will take time, practice and experience to get good (lots of it too for most people). Some of the skills and techniques aren’t immediately obvious by just watching someone, so i do think proper tuition is valuable.

Hope this helps.

This is really interesting as I was wary of the “trail centre” nature of Tony’s set up but I’ve managed to transfer what I learned there to jumping off stuff in the peaks , landing on loose Rocky ground that for years I’ve rolled through. It’s important to remember that coaching someone is a team that effort. Even the best coach can’t help someone if they’re looking for a magic bullet or thinking that because they’ve paid money (quite a lot in some cases) that they just need to sit back and wait for their purchase to be “delivered”.

As a motorcycle instructor I’d every so often, come across someone who believed they were buying a licence rather than a course of tuition. They were always the hardest to teach.

I think it’s quite important that coaches have access to tightly controlled “terrain”. Everyone learns differently, some people are completely visual, can just watch someone demonstate once and go and do it. Other people (like me!) need much more practice and really need to “learn” to do something. Having a controlled small drop or jump is therefore necessary, one on which anyone can start without hurting themselves, and progress at their own pace. Now, i’m no jumper, but after a session with Tony i could now see a potential jump on the trail, and at the very least “size it up”. Often, as a result i would decide NOT to ride it, but that itself is a useful skill to learn.

Now, in the real world, on real trails, drops are much more complex than the typical “roll straight in and out” drops used for coaching, but if you can get your technique dialled on those artificial ones, to the point of becoming automatic, well, the ones in the real world then just fall out in the wash so to speak. Yes, you will need to practice and keep yourself “current” so to speak, but at least you have a basic and correct idea of what you should and shouldn’t be doing!

I went on one with some mates. Hadn’t paid upfront but instructor was happy for me to join as a bit of a last minute addition. Thought I’d go and see what is was like. Teaching was ok. Offered to drive to bank and pay directly after finishing course. Instructor was all cool, no worries, pay me whenever etc in front of everyone. 2 days later started with some arsey emails for the cash. Not cool…

Now, in the real world, on real trails, drops are much more complex than the typical “roll straight in and out” drops used for coaching

More complex or just more intimidating?

Having spent quite a bit of time practising drops in the local quarry near my old house as well as various man-made obstacles including 6 foot ladder drops, this weekend I found myself approaching a drop that was just a touch too big to roll. The approach was a bit rooty and slippy and the landing was a bit rocky. I stopped, got off my bike, had a look and nearly talked myself out of attempting it. I then slapped myself round the face a bit and remembered that I knew what to do and had done it many times before. It was easy. I assume this is the coaching bit rather than the skills bit. I had the skills, but needed to coach myself into doing it.

I think some people would benefit from a ‘read and understand the words in front of you’ course.

You have no idea how good/bad any of the course attendees are/were nor why they are so happy at the results. “anyone who benefitted from a skills course must be shit” As I said; pure bollocks.

Spot the guy who had a course but is still shit 😀

UKbikeskills do a pretty good blog so i have a bit of an idea of the standard of some of the riders who go to Jedi. As for the bit in bold above, that’s something you’ve said, not me. Don’t take it bad. I can’t sing or play any instruments but don’t get upset when someone tells me i’m crap. I know it already. You just need to accept the reality and move on. As long as you’re having fun, it’s all good.

@ Euro

I’m interested in investigating the implications of you logic there, linking ability with the need for coaching:

Are you saying any of the following?

> Jedi is not capable of coaching folk with a ‘higher skill set’ (you define what that is, as it’s your assertion)
> You only need a coach if you’re crap
> Professional sports folk don’t need coaches

> Nope, by all accounts Jedi is a top coach and i’m sure he could teach riders of any level something. What i meant (obviously not very clearly) is those who get the most from a course are those who didn’t know how to ride that well to begin with. That’s not meant as an insult, just how i see (from the blog).

> Nope, you can have a coach any time but if you already have the basics of riding covered, then there’s not so much to learn from a skills course imo. Jumping is the basics, going round corners is the basics, drops are the basics as is going up and down steep stuff. A good coach might be able to give you pointers on how to improve the on the basics, but if you are doing them wrong then you really didn’t have them covered in the first place.

> I never mentioned professional sportsmen. I’m talking about riding a mountain bike. I’m sure in the world of professional bike riding there are coaches, but i’d bet they are more fitness and mental coaches as opposed to riding technique. Who’s going to give Danny Hart tips on how to ride a bike?

He does show how simple it is

Thank you.

I did my first skills day in the summer. It was good but not ground breaking. There was a lot of showing you how to do it, telling you you were doing it wrong but not many tips to help you get it right. I think I have got more out of watching the fluid ride like a pro film and lopeses book.

Personally I don’t agree with coaching/’skills’ days.

Riding bikes should be a life long passion and the only way to build the skills needed is to spend time riding bikes, the skills come with time. Years. They embed themselves.
I’m riding far faster now in my 40’s than I ever have.

You also need the ability to self analysis-if you cant round that corner quick enough then figure out why, go back try something different-is there improvement? repeat. figure it out yourself.

Crash. Falling off is part of it. Parts of my body permanently show the learning curve.

Paying someone is just cheating yourself-there isn’t a quick fix. Ride more, figure it out.

Not sure if you’re serious but I like.

Spot the guy who had a course but is still shit

It’s probably you! Hence the anti course position!

just how i see (from the blog).

Shit at reading as well I see.

I think that unless you aim at improving your skills to bebetter at racing, or you’re a beginners, it’s pretty useless.
Hop and your bike, ride it an just enjoy it.
I am sure I am shite and you can pick up plenty of “wrong” habits in my biking. But I don’t care I just love to ride my bike.
But I am curious to learn your feed back if you try it.

Riding bikes should be a life long passion and the only way to build the skills needed is to spend time riding bikes, the skills come with time. Years. They embed themselves.
I’m riding far faster now in my 40’s than I ever have.
You also need the ability to self analysis-if you cant round that corner quick enough then figure out why, go back try something different-is there improvement? repeat. figure it out yourself.

I don’t get that mentality

As has been said, if you’re practicing bad technique than no amount of practice will rectify that. Balls will get you most of the way, and most people will probably be held back more by that than an actual skill level. But elitist bullshit about ‘learning the craft’ is absurd. IMO.

I can’t be taught anything………………………..I never listen.

I went on a mixed drops and jumps course with jedi earlier this year

I’ve been mtbing for 15+ years, done the mega a few timed done loads of stuff, Wales, scotland, slid down champery dh etc

But really I’m a bit shit started racing ukges and finishing near the back decided to get my arse skilled up

Tony was great mixed ability group he was able to give a decent amount of coaching to each of us, helped me with my cornering, bike posture, setup, jumping technique etc, he pointed out things he thought I was doing wrong, explained why and now I try and focus on those

It takes a long time to unlearn years of unhelpful technique but I’m a faster, better rider than i was without the coaching, still have to ride ride ride but I’m getting better quicker than I would’ve done without the course. And its more fun than ever! Rode Aston today- how good does it feel now that I can comfortably ride all the jumps and drops on s2a 🙂

This thread must be the worst nightmare of any instructor, even if you were the best rider/instructor in the world how do you install a lifetimes experience into someone in a day course when most people don’t have the stamina to ride for a few hours let alone a full day?

I don”t think any of them actually claim to be magicians as well as instructors 😉

I don’t think that ‘Learning the Craft’ is elitist, putting in hours on the bike is best way to improve full stop. A skills course can make the time you spend on the bike much more productive however.

I guess anyone could learn to ski eventually through trail and error and watching others. If i go to the alps for a week though I’d rather pay someone to get me there much faster.

I went on skills courses as I was sick of getting injured all the time whilst riding fast. That means I fall into the ‘bit shit’ group of riders and I don’t have a problem with that. Since the courses I haven’t learnt a whole lot but my riding has improved to a level where I’m enjoying it more.

I think that a lot of people who invest a lot of money in MTB hardware would maybe benefit from going for SLX over XTR and spending the difference on getting a bit of skills coaching.

I don’t think that ‘Learning the Craft’ is elitist, putting in hours on the bike is best way to improve full stop. A skills course can make the time you spend on the bike much more productive however.

In the same way that you can get fit by going out and riding, but most people who want to be competitive will follow some sort of plan. Cycling is an odd one in that you learn to do it when you’re very young and that’s it, no one ever teaches you anything else. seems some see a real stigma around tuition. Which I don’t get.

You could learn to drive a formula one car or fly a 747 by trial and error. But you don’t.

I’ve had two sessions with Great Roxk, one a half day basic thing in a group at Hurstwood, and the other a full day 1 to 1 around Hebden.

I got loads out of both, but only because I took what was taught on the day and tried to expand on conciously. If you just looked at each day in isolation you may only take 3 or 4 things away, which doesn’t seem good value. However, if you look at how much more fun it can improve your riding overall it is well worth it.

I’m sure some people have less to learn, or less capability to change, so they may get less out of these.

I’ll be doing a jumps session with someone soon.

It’s probably you! Hence the anti course position!

Nah, i’m shit but at least it didn’t cost me anything 😆

For the record i’m not anti course. When i first heard about skills courses (on here when i first joined) i was a bit anti. A bit ‘pay someone to show you how to ride a bike? Suckers!’ But i can see a place for it and if you don’t have the time to ride and experiment and learn (not just the right way to do things – there’s lots to gained from doing it wrong too) then it’s a great way to get more from your riding time. They’re not for me though. I have bad habits but enjoy working out how to make them less bad.

RustyNissanPrairie – Member

Personally I don’t agree with coaching/’skills’ days.

Riding bikes should be a life long passion and the only way to build the skills needed is to spend time riding bikes, the skills come with time. Years. They embed themselves.
I’m riding far faster now in my 40’s than I ever have.

You also need the ability to self analysis-if you cant round that corner quick enough then figure out why, go back try something different-is there improvement? repeat. figure it out yourself.

Crash. Falling off is part of it. Parts of my body permanently show the learning curve.

Paying someone is just cheating yourself-there isn’t a quick fix. Ride more, figure it out.

But that’s your experience. Not everyone who wants to improve has the background that you have. What about someone who is moving to MTB from a different background, especially late in life? I took up mountainbiking at the age of 45. At that age I was already injured through other sports with 11 fracture injuries and therefore “time served” as your analogy points out. At that age a beginner is going to be circumspect and not necessarily brave or devil-may-care as a teenager on a set of dirt jumps or bike park to get the skills required.

Five years later here I am, with another couple of fractures to go with the ones I already had, all through pushing myself, but with a nagging doubt that I’m missing something fundamental. Until a year or so ago I was still unable to get any air at all, even on tabletops, but I can ride fast on some pretty rough terrain, forcing myself to be braver on drops and rocks. I get cornering, it’s pretty intuitive to an ex superbike scratcher , but wheelies, manuals, in fact anything that involves changing centre of gravity away from planted remains a mental “block”.

I am absolutely determined to be able to ride with confidence, style, and artistry, but at the age of 50 I doubt I have much time left to do the “life long” “embedded” thing that you so glibly endorse. I don’t want to cheat, I want to put in the effort to learn, but I’m not twelve! So, I’m on the lookout for someone who can help me overcome the reticence hampering me. The right sort of coach/instructor must be able to provide some of that, surely?

Euro, why don’t you book a training session with Jedi instead of barking from the sidelines or is that not an option?
You will then be qualified to give your opinion be it a good experience or bad.

Euro, why don’t you book a training session with Jedi instead of barking from the sidelines or is that not an option?

I live in a different country. You pay my fare and accommodation and i’ll pay for the course?***

You will then be qualified to give your opinion be it a good experience or bad.

I haven’t given any opinion if it’s a good or bad experience. The only thing i said was that if anyone was considering coaching then 1-1 or 1-2 would be better than being part of a larger group.

***Actually, thinking about it, if i mouthed off enough do you think i could get some of you to chip in and pay for a day with Jedi? He could do a blog and you could witness my shitness. Go on, have a laugh at my expense at your expense.

I still only have good things to say about Jedi. I’ve been riding bikes for years, bmx etc when I was a teenager and wasn’t bad but always felt I was winging it a bit on jumps – like each one was a potential cock up waiting to happen which it did a few times. Since my day I haven’t felt any of that and its been a constant progression onto bigger stuff with no big crashes since despite pushing the comfort zone. Can’t speak for any other coaches though.

I’ve done 4 courses and if I take one thing away that improves my riding I would consider that a good investment given a pair of tyres taps £100 near as damn it. I would rate Tony Doyle as the best BUT we’re all different, have different gaps and learn in different ways so 1 coach may not suit another. I like stuff broken down, explained to me and prescribed patiently, also would always go 1 to 1 now.

I have bad habits but enjoy working out how to make them less bad.

That’s all well and good but what about the bad habits you don’t know you have? 😉

Where a lot of people benefit is that Jedi gives you the confidence to do the jumps and drops at his premises, and those that couldn’t jump suddenly find themselves sailing over small gap jumps. This is great, but it’s done at a controlled speed, in a controlled environment. It’s a bit different on the trails, and I suspect many people that visit Jedi and do his array of smaller jumps struggle to covert that to natural stuff on a tricky trail.

This was me. I could do his 3 foot drops and get reasonable air on his tabletops with no problems, but still don’t have much confidence on the same ones on my real trails.

So is Jedi worth going to to improve XC skills ie cornering faster and pumping but are not remotely interested in jumping or air?

Yes, I’d say so. It’s so hard to quantify if I actually got faster, but I thought it was worth it, even if it didn’t revolutionise my riding.

Jumps – a basic skill? On what planet?

What a skills session will do is give you pointers on ways to improve your riding. Some might be so simple that you’ll come away from the session having implemented them and improved, others you need to go away and practice and practice and practice, it’s only then that you’ll start to improve.

The reason professional sportsmen and women have coaches isn’t that they need teaching the skills, they’ve got those, it’s so that bad habits don’t creep in following an injury for example.

I’d been riding MTB for 25 years when I went to UKBS on a group course. I’m not the fastest, but above average. I knew I could already do his little easy smooth run out drops/tabletop/gap without too much trouble before I went. I thought I knew the basics of cornering, drops, jumps very well. I’ve watched more skills videos and read more mag articles than I care to remember. I’ve done the following people faster than me bit, and the practicing it over and over bit.

I felt that I got my moneys worth in the first 30 mins of riding round in circles on the flat. Turns out that what I thought I was doing right was OK but not as good as it could be.

By the end of the day I didn’t do anything I could not do before, but I could do it all with much more control, smoother, and faster.

The point is, you might think you know it already, I bet most people don’t.

So is Jedi worth going to to improve XC skills ie cornering faster and pumping but are not remotely interested in jumping or air?

Yes.

What happens if something appears on your ‘XC’ trail that should be jumped though? Tony has a progressive range of little lumps that will take you from 6″ to clearing a 6′ tabletop. You progress as much as you’re comfortable with. He has an excellent trail with loads of corners, pumping, all sorts of features. TBH it’s worth it just for the coffee, riding around a bit, and driving all the way home buzzing.

singlespeedstu – Member

That’s all well and good but what about the bad habits you don’t know you have?

LIKE. A big benefit of coaching can be the skilled critical eye. I remember riding with Ian Potter of A Quick Release, he wasn’t officially coaching me but I don’t think he can stop himself… Anyway, day one of the holiday, he watched me ride for about 2 minutes and said “How long have you been riding motorbikes”, he’d clocked all the little counterproductive habits I’ve transferred from street motorbikes into mountain bikes just like that and then started taking them to bits. I’d got really good at riding round them- the old “bad technique done well”.

Problem with that….

I still ride motorbikes LOL.

What happens if something appears on your ‘XC’ trail that should be jumped though?

Roll or walk is my motto :D. More skillz to go with my improved fitness for better XC placings is what I’m after. For Gorrick this means learning better descending on steep stuff, cornering, getting max pump benefit from features and possibly lifting the front wheel on bombholes? I’m 50 I don’t bounce and I really don’t want to start upping the ante by learning to jump on a 20lb race bike.

^^^^ Thing about “learning to jump” is the same basic techniques also shows you how to absorb a trail obstacle, pretty much by just varying the timing of your inputs! So, if you want to go really pretty fast, but keep both wheels on the ground, you can do that too 😉

Good thread this and good see other opinions expressed on the benefit or not of skills tuition. I’ve had three experiences of skills days, all different with varying degrees of benefit. I pretty much always ride either solo or with my gf or kids so not much opportunity to learn from better riders. First one was with a guy who I think went under the banner of MTB Skills. I’d been riding for a couple of years and didn’t have a clue on any form of technique or concept of what I needed to be doing in different situations. He took me and another guy around Rivington, going over all the different aspects of a typical day out, ie uphill technique, downhill, drop off, jumps etc. I really got a lot from this as although I’ve never ridden Rivington before or since it was similar to the areas I do ride (Lakes/Dales). My confidence came on a lot from this and I enjoyed my riding a lot more as a result. Prior to a trip to the Pyrenees I decided to take another course to prepare myself. After seeing lots of recommendations on here went with Great Rock for a session at Gisburn. To be honest didn’t’ get as much from this. The course was very much centred on one aspect, and although I knew it was at a trail centre I thought any skills acquired could be transferred to more natural riding environments, I didn’t feel this was the case and came away pretty underwhelmed. Final experience was my gf, she attended a womens only course at the Dales Bike Centre. She enjoyed this enormously and her riding came on a lot, giving her a lot of confidence. Even now she still remembers a lot of the advice that she was given and she always looks a lot more in control then I do. So I guess what I’m saying is that from my experience, take a course in an environment that is most suited to the majority of your riding. For me I see little benefit in having a session in a manmade environment if you this isn’t where you ride regularly.

^^Sounds good

So is Jedi worth going to to improve XC skills ie cornering faster and pumping but are not remotely interested in jumping or air?

Couple of years since I did a day with him (2:1), but it was mainly about cornering and pumping IIRC. That was definitely the biggest gain for me anyway.

The jumping stuff was useful too though, and it’s all pretty low pressure and with a natural learning curve.

Haven’t felt the need for any more skills sessions since. Not saying I’m perfect, far from it, but it’s my head that holds me back rather than my technique now I suspect.

I have had:

– some informal coaching from guides on holidays (mainly BasqueMTB)
– a week in the Basque country with Great Rock; and
– a day in Leigh Woods, Bristol with Pedal Progression.

I have two main observations:

1. I can learn roughly 2 things before my brain overloads. It doesn’t matter if you coach me for 5 hours, for an hour a day for a week or make a couple of remarks about my riding every day for a fortnight. There comes a point when no more goes in, and I start getting worse.

2. Once my 2 things have gone in, it takes about 2 months of consciously trying to internalise what I’ve been taught while I’m riding, until I’m doing it reasonably naturally and it becomes a durable part of how I ride.

The combination of those two things means that I simply don’t show spectacular progress which is easily chalked up to being “from the coaching”. I show slight progress after a while. It’s hard to say that the coaching is definitely a major factor, but it helps motivate, doesn’t really break the bank, and is fun.

🙂