Audi S3 – quite fast!

Thought experiment…

So, we have a problem with people driving a fast car faster than a slower car, right? They should drive at the same speed. But wait, the fast car with its improved brakes, traction, possibly electronic stability and all that jazz, is safer at the same speed than a bog standard family saloon. By extension, there will be a point where the fast car is going faster, but is on balance exactly as fast as the slow car driven slower.

So by the same logic, if the slower car and the faster car are travelling at the same speed, the slower car should now slow down to equalise the safety. At which point the fast car should also slow down otherwise STW will get offended. And then the slower car should slow down again. It all gets a bit paradoxical in the end but the main thrust of the argument seems to be that all cars should be identical, because as soon as you have even one car in the world with higher or lower performance than all the rest, it becomes morally unforgivable to drive anywhere.

Northwind wins the Internet for the whole of April

You can apparently only see in black in white.

You must be new here…

the main thrust of the argument seems to be that all cars should be identical

Not really. The main thrust of the argument is that we should all be driving in basically the same way, at a relaxed pace.

To encourage this, I would like to fit black boxes to every car, but also I’d build racing tracks in every town – access would be free in return for zero tolerance on the roads. That way, boy racers could get their rocks off on a track and drive properly fast, and leave the roads as a means of transport rather than self expression or indulgence.

Northwind wins the Internet for the whole of April

😆 😆

Wow 7 pages about an Audi s3…actually it a pretty slow tbh

I’d still like one.

molgrips – Member

The main thrust of the argument is that we should all be driving in basically the same way, at a relaxed pace.

So you’re happy that most people will be driving around being drastically less safe than someone in an S3, driving in basically the same way at a relaxed pace? In that case, why aren’t you happy with someone in an S3 driving around just as safely, but a little quicker?

Seems like the concern here isn’t about safety at all, it’s about demeanour.

I’m constantly amazed at people on a cycling forum talking about driving fast on public roads, don’t you ever think that some of the people that you respond to on here might be using those roads as well as pedestrians, cyclists or horse riders? although, admittedly, if they knew you were out being awesome and driving fast then they probably won’t be using those roads..

I’m constantly amazed at people on a cycling forum talking about driving fast on public roads,

Oh, bugger, is this cross-posted into the bike forum by mistake?

*checks*

Nope, all good, looks like its a conversation about fast cars in a “chat” forum then

why aren’t you happy with someone in an S3 driving around just as safely, but a little quicker?

Because a S3 doesn’t stop any better than most other cars on the road. Do some research on the cars with the shortest stopping distances Northwind. They are not sporty cars, unless you count big luxury barges a

Because a S3 doesn’t stop any better than most other cars on the road. Do some research on the cars with the shortest stopping distances Northwind.

I thought we’d established that a lot of this was to do with tyres, and I’d be willing to bet that the S3 will have significantly better rubber than a Nissan Almera

I love driving on twisty roads. I like cars with a bit of performance. I used to own an S3. To have fun on twisty roads you don’t need to break the speed limit, drive without consideration or progress in any other way which increases risk. I am enjoying a commute which takes in the road between Bromyard and Ombersley in Worcestershire at the moment. It is really great fun. There are many elements of it though where I don’t do the speed limit… I drive less than the speed limit as the road isn’t suitable for driving any faster IMHO.

I would have and really enjoy a new S3 but in a family of five and taking our holidays in Europe by car it wouldn’t be practical. I would be jealous Lecht but I know I have the right car for me now. I hope you really enjoy it though!

why aren’t you happy with someone in an S3 driving around just as safely, but a little quicker?

Because an S3 doesn’t stop any better than most other cars on the road. Do some research on the cars with the shortest stopping distances, Northwind (and check out my earlier contributions to this thread). They are not sporty cars, unless you count big luxury barges and people carriers as sporty. Even then the insignificant differences in stopping distances don’t justify driving even a little bit faster when speed limits are based on the consequences for what happens when it all goes wrong.

30: the speed below which at which a pedestrian has a good chance of survival if hit. More recent research suggests dropping this urban limit to 20mph to improve survivability as pedestrians and cyclists are now disproportionally represented in fatalities.

50/60: the speed at which occupants of a vehicle leaving the road and hitting an obstacle have a chance of survival.

70 the speed at which the occupants should survive a motorway accident in which the vehicle remains on the carriageway.

Cars have turned into air-bag-equipped tanks since the limits were set so the number of people surviving has improved. People being killed has become less socially acceptable though so limits have remained low – vulnerable road users are just as vulnerable as ever.

If you want confirmation that going faster in a vehicle with better brakes, handling and acceleration is not a good idea compare motorcycle fatalities per km with pedal bicycles.

Check my earlier posts, Zokes. Stopping does indeed have a lot to do with tyres.
Having the right tyres for the season is very important. Changing tyres at 3mm rather than letting them get down to the legal limit is very important. In terms of stopping ability the width and profile make next to no difference in the dry and overly wide tyres don’t stop well in the wet.

Changing tyres at 3mm rather than letting them get down to the legal limit is very important.

And who is more likely to take heed of this sage advice?

Someone applying bangernomics and bluffing their way from one MOT to the next? Or someone who’s spent 35 grand on a car and is thus likely to be somewhat interested in all facets of its performance, including the four bits of rubber that keep it glued to the road?

I’d wager it would be the latter. I’d also wager that it’s extremely unlikely that someone with so little interest in cars as to let their tyres get to dangerous levels of wear would be spending 35 grand on a performance hatchback.

FWIW, mine are at 15 mm at the moment I think, but then horses for courses – you wouldn’t get an S3 where we go, that’s for sure…

Edukator, theres no point everyone on this threads too awesome.

Perhaps Anagallis. Perhaps Zokes didn’t read my R8 fatal crash story the first time I linked it. It has all the attitudes of the AIM/”I’m a better driver” in performance car in it, including the dangerously worn tyres.

Edit: you’ll find performance tyres have less tread to start with to avoid tread squirm. As little as 8mm though I’d have to do some Googling to confirm that.

Edukate yourself of the definition of the word “likely”, then try again.

IAM? Its only called that because The Institute of Slightly Better Than Average Drivers wouldnt sell.

I reckon it’s more likely someone who buys tyres with only 8mm on them will be more tempted to run them below 3mm than someone that buys tyres with 14mm on them. Especially as the buyer of performance tyres will know that racers who are obliged to use road tyres put them in a lathe to machine off most of the tread to improve dry grip and handling.

That link does contain an excellent message.

I reckon it’s more likely that someone that buys tyres with only 8mm on them will be more tempted to run them below 3mm than someone that buys tyres with 14mm on them. Especially as the buyer of performance tyres will know that racers who are obliged to use road tyres put them in a lathe to machine off most of the tread to improve dry grip and handling.

That’s certainly interesting, but as a previous owner of a fast car (not S3 level, granted), I can’t say that ever occurred to me. Had I been interested in racing it, on a race track, then maybe. I would be highly surprised if it was something the majority of drivers of faster versions of standard cars would do though…

Change tyres with 3mm left on them?
Yeah right, OK. I wish I could afford to.
Same as winter tyres, can’t afford that. Dream on sunshine.
Most of my miles are done on a motorbike now anyway (for reasons of economy and commuting in heavy traffic) and AFAIK you can’t get winter tyres for bikes anyway.

I’ve had time to check now, Toyo 888 tyres have 6/32″ (4.7mm) when new. They also have no sipes. Can you see anyone changing them at 3mm which is only half worn in legal terms.

why aren’t you happy with someone in an S3 driving around just as safely, but a little quicker?

They can drive a bit faster, that’s fine. But this is a 300bhp car and people are talking about pushing it hard. That would make it a hell of a lot faster than normal.

Re tyres with less tread – are we saying that even in the dry worn tyres are worse grip?

I’ve had time to check now, Toyo 888 tyres have 6/32″ (4.7mm) when new. They also have no sipes. Can you see anyone changing them at 3mm which is only half worn in legal terms.

I think you’d have to be mad to buy them in the first place!
That’s a barely road legal track tyre. Same sort of thing is available for bikes…. But the big problem is that road use doesn’t work them hard enough to get them warmed up, so they end up being worse for the road than a sports-touring tyre, which is the sort of thing I put on our bikes. Bridgestone 023, for example.

anagallis_arvensis – Member
Edukator, theres no point everyone on this threads too awesome.

Pretty sure I’m not. Deeply average I imagine – probably why I don’t speed on twisty country roads despite my previous choice of car, current car or liking of the new S3. Liking and/or owning such a car and loving driving on twisty roads doesn’t mean you have to drive above the speed limit or any speed up to the speed limit greater than the road conditions should sensibly dictate.

Back to the point of the thread – the new S3 and in my experience the original model are lovely cars!

Worn tyres have more grip in the dry, Molgrips.

Yokohamas with 7mm of tread when new are probably the equivalent of your sports-touring tyre, Peter. Again not the ideal thing on a cold, wet road.

I have yet to post a negative comment on the S3 or similar other than to point out that braking performance isn’t superior to many “dull” cars and therefore doesn’t justify driving faster. What drew me in was bragging about a “ding dong” on the M40 in 150mph+ cars. I’d be tempted by an S3 if it were bigger inside, had a little more ground (snow) clearance and did better than 6l/100km on petrol.

If you are making use of anywhere near the potential of a 200+bhp car then you need to be going seriously fast, I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.
I’ve got a seven year old, round the clock, Octavia estate VRS diesel with a piffling 170bhp. I find it ridiculously easy to get to 100 or cruise about at 80+.

It has been looked after, has good tyres and so on, but making use of that 170bhp can become dangerously fast very easily.
I rarely drive the car, most of my miles are in my van.
When I do rarely get it to myself, and go for an ‘enthusiastic’ drive, I fully admit that I’m an arsehole. It is more dangerous, end of.

Another one turning into his dad 😉

If you are making use of anywhere near the potential of a 200+bhp car then you need to be going seriously fast, I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.

I think this depends what you see as potential…

When I do rarely get it to myself, and go for an ‘enthusiastic’ drive, I fully admit that I’m an arsehole. It is more dangerous, end of.

I would suggest that it’s best you don’t drive it then. If you can’t drive considerately, thoughtfully or with the legalities of road use in mind – leave the car at home.

That’s the point I’m making jamj, talking about the driving within the legalities of the road renders cars like the S3 totally pointless.
Having fun on a twisty road at less than 60, something like an old mini makes more sense.

Yokohamas with 7mm of tread when new are probably the equivalent of your sports-touring tyre, Peter. Again not the ideal thing on a cold, wet road.

Probably not on a car, no. Motorcycle sports-touring tyres are where the smart money is on bikes though, they are the best for general road use by a mile. Nobody would put anything much harder (if it was available which I doubt) on a modem bike and lots of sports bikes come with sticky rubber that soon gets swapped for a S-T tyre when it wears out. I’m not into pure sports bikes at all. They’re no good to us as we both do a fair few miles on our bikes. We share 2 bikes, a Ducati ST3s and a Honda NC700x. The Duke can whisk us both away on a touring holiday fully loaded with ease but I wouldn’t want to commute regularly on it. Too much bike, too much power for that. The ease with which it gets from A to B is simply staggering. But 25 miles of heavy motorway traffic every day? No thanks. That’s what the NC is for. Manoeuvrable and easy to ride with a nice high riding position to see over all the cars.
But both bikes wear the same type of sports touring tyre. Thinking about it they’re as close as you’ll get to a wet weather tyre on a motorbike I guess. They’re designed for best grip in all conditions on the road.

Enjoy the bikes. I’m a lot more tolerant of bikers traveling quickly. I know that they know that an error is going to hurt if they survive at all.

The problem with cars is the impunity drivers feel which is why I’d like to see trackers fitted to all cars with insurance premiums and payouts in the case of a crash based on the behaviour of the driver. people with bad habits would soon be priced off the roads.

Agree with Ed, on this thread!

#nedthread

That’s the point I’m making jamj, talking about the driving within the legalities of the road renders cars like the S3 totally pointless.

For some maybe – for me it definitely didn’t! I drive a car with 313PS at the moment. Don’t use all that power either!

Ah right. So it’s more a posing thing then?

Different people get different kicks out of motoring. Some like flash in your face cars, some like economic cars that do 60 + mpg. With some people it’s a status symbol, look at me look how successful I am etc. Some of my most favourite times in a car have been in a bog standard mini 1000 van. The best fun was in an Audi 80 sport that had an Audi Quattro 10 valve turbo engine transplanted in it. What a Q car that was. Let’s all live and let live.

Now if somebody would transplant that S3 running gear into a old Octavia 4×4 estate now your talking!

I’d like to see trackers fitted to all cars

1) I’d rather you paid for that

2) I’d rather not live inside an Orwellian 1984

I’ll pay for it as soon as I can, it’ll save me money. My sister has it on the car her kids use. The kids are happy to live with it, the lead-footed, hole-in hedge-parents find it hard to adapt.

Log off then, your ISP knows your every move.