Army at Mayhem

Really enjoyed Mayhem this year, perhaps back to the good times in the good weather. Excellent, tough course that kept the Alaskan Puppies going hard at it. Incredible scenery, beautiful touching moments like cresting the long climb to see 20 riders off the bikes watching the sunset, riding/grunting up that long climb ahead of the solo women winner as she yabbered away about the price of shopping, chatting to Matt Page in the handover, and chatting to Ant White about how he was getting on.

Didn't spend too much time away from the tent/the bike but walked over to the arena on the hunt for hot food and cake and the first thing my 5 year old son saw was a massive inflatable fun looking Army dude with a big fun rifle. In the background was a video screen showing footage of youngsters boxing getting the hairdryer treatment from their corner. Then he spotted some young lads having a go with rifles. He was drawn to it, and really wanted to go and have a look. But absolutely no way was he going any where near that place of illusion and death. Only last week some young soldiers were blown to pieces out in the field, and it left a bit of a bitter taste to see that lifestyle being promoted at a family orientated event like Mayhem.

Obviously my 5 year old chose to ignore it after that initial distraction.

🙄

All very true, but realistically if you sunddenly got rid of the american army, of which currently the british army seems to be some kind of division would the world be a better place ?

Probably not, so the army still needs to recruit.

I blame the tories

I blame BP

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I don't know who said it but it is true. Seventy years ago this August the Battle of Britain was well underway. Hitler and his high command wanted to eliminate the RAF before operation Sealion (The invasion of the UK). Because of the UK military (in particular the RAF) the invasion was postponed. Four years later soldiers of the British Army in conjunction with others began landing in France beginning the operation to liberate europe.
I understand that we were in no danger of being invaded by the Taliban but the military are a tool for use by the government of the day. You might not agree with how the military are being used and you should take that up with the government. Thank fully because of the deeds of men all those decades ago you are entitled to have those opinions.
The manpower for the armed forces has to come from somewhere, town centers, Cadet Organisations and at events where the public will be, unless you'd rather conscription was brought back in? You don't join the military and not know the risks, but thank god for those that do. The next time it might not be such a distant war.

You didn't agree with the way that the Army were present at Mayhem and you didn't let your son go near the Army stand, there will have plenty there that did find it interesting though. I presume you also disagree with returning troops marching through towns and cities? I'm not ranting or being confrontational, I served in the RAF and I just want people to realise that these people go out of their way for the country as a whole and they should appreciate their efforts.

They where the Navy.

It was a Bootie.

You might not agree with how the military are being used and you should take that up with the government. Thank fully because of the deeds of men all those decades ago you are entitled to have those opinions.

Well said.

Absolutely no dispute from me whatsoever that all of the Forces who protect these shores and others at this time and in the past do a great job. I've got no problem with Remembrance Sunday, troops marching through towns being celebrated for their efforts, Help For Heroes raising money to help those heroes, and remembering my relatives that died in WW1 and 2.

I suppose I just do not want my son to die. Most of all, I do not want my son to be manipulated for his interest in all things energetic/exciting/invigorating/sociable/global and end up getting killed.

Kids at that young age are very vulnerable and get swept up in all things that others are doing – Star Wars, Ben10, Walls ice cream – so having a table full of rifles being handled by 7 year olds, for me, was as manipulative as any other brand. He's not able to make the decisions on what brands are the right/wrong brands/ways to support, so my wife and I try to help him make those decisions.

I would much rather see him put his energy into something like cycling/football/painting/music.

Yeh imagine a young lad wanting to run about with guns. Those Army (RM?) guys are evil.

The OP has a good point. Plus I don't agree with the words 'hero' being used alot recently. I think Afghanistan is churning out a great deal of young victims of a conflict.

Thank fully because of the deeds of men all those decades ago you are entitled to have those opinions

Forgotten Voices series of books will start to open your eyes to manipulation, pressure, incompetence and wholesale disregard for human life.

But absolutely no way was he going any where near that place of illusion and death.

What is your major malfunction, cakefest? Didn't Mommy and Daddy show you enough attention when you were a child?

I suspect there are 2 sides to this. You do make the forces sound a bit like one of those weird religious brainwashing cults when you talk about manipulating people for their interests though.

Perhaps the guns were there as an attention grabber (maybe they could've used something else) and the video and people were there to explain the other opportunities that the forces present.

Lets be honest, if you laid out on a table the considerable volume of paperwork that I end up doing in my part of the Forces, i doubt many people would've come over to investigate.

Is that you, John Wayne? Is this me?

Cakefest, I see your point in wanting to protect him from the evils of the world. I think most if not all young boys play war, have toy guns etc. I don't feel that just because he has ten minutes of handling weaponry that he'll want to join up at sixteen and be another statistic. He'll soon learn about war, guns and the military. It's inescapable really, Xbox, friends and the news, he'll soon hear about it. There aren't many parents that feel the same way as you about it, and when he asks you about the military you can give him a balanced view.
Don't write off the military for a career or even the cadet movement when he is old enough. Both will give him a sense of discipline, pride and confidence. Not only that I have made friends and memories for life. Through the RAF I have a good trade behind me and some great memories.
I am the father of a four year old daughter and if she shows interest in the military when she is older I'll willingly tell her all about it, good and bad. If she wants to join up I'd be more than happy. I know there is a risk but I can't stand in the way of what she want to do with her life.

Id rather the troops were called heroes than those overpaid overrated bellends currently crying about conditions and not seeing their wags in sa 🙁

I can see exactly the OP is coming from. Personally I'll welcome my lad to fire/handle guns etc etc however he will be brought up the sameway I was, on the poetry, remembrance and understanding of the futility of war.

I still remember a Summer fair handling a Schmeisser 9mm ad a small boy and almost falling over trying to hold it! I also went into the air cadets however as mentioned above many many young boys and men died in WWI and WWII so that we don't have to suffer.

firestarter – Member
Id rather the troops were called heroes than those overpaid overrated bellends currently crying about conditions and not seeing their wags in sa

We sing from the same song sheet Mick

I find the easist way to deal with these situations is to openly discuss with my son what a gun will actually do to you if you are on the receiving end. It doesn't have to be frightening, just pragmatic, and obviously these sorts of discussions are all the better if the recruiting soldiers are prepared to join in as well (although that seldom happens).

Kids (and especially boys) are always going to play 'war' and be interested in it, but helping them understand the consequences means they can make their own minds up in the future.

Only last week some young soldiers were blown to pieces out in the field, and it left a bit of a bitter taste to see that lifestyle being promoted at a family orientated event like Mayhem.

Yes some brave young men who joined up to face the reality of having to lay down their lives on a daily basis to reduce the threat to hundreds of people. People they will never know threatened by being blown apart in their own country as they inocecntly go about their daily lives. people who will never thank them, or even know that they had their lives saved. People like you and me.

OP I understand your point in the distaste for "hey kids guns are cool and fun, join the army and you get lots of guns" type marketing approach. However anything that breaks down barriers and introduces people to the military as people and as an institution for vocational betterment and not just a factory producing meathead killing machines is fine by me. I'm sure most people are capable of developing the idea of the longer ramifications of a life in the military and won't be bowled over by a blow up soldier and a trade stall.

We all love our kids, but nothing would make me more proud than having a kid who is willing to shoulder the resposibility that he is willing to risk his own life to save hundreds of others. I'm sure the world needs sales reps, accountants, traffic wardens, nail technicians and so many other jobs as the way of the world in an economic free state neseciates it. However we still need brave men willing to make a sacrifice for this to continue, bravery is not the absence of fear, it is doing your best despite it.

Not wrong nick 😉

Yes some brave young men who joined up to face the reality of having to lay down their lives on a daily basis to reduce the threat to hundreds of people. People they will never know threatened by being blown apart in their own country as they inocecntly go about their daily lives. people who will never thank them, or even know that they had their lives saved. People like you and me.

Brave young men laying down their lives. Lets be quite clear on this, you are right- YOUNG men. Whats the average age of a combat soldier I wonder? What do they face when they come home? Does the Government care for their mental and physical scars properly afterwards?

Elements within Pakistan are more a threat than in Afghanistan. Do you suggest we invade every country who doesn't follow our commercial/democratic model? Heroin still makes its way from Afghanistan to the UK. Do you really buy into George Bush's thinking? War on Terror is it?

If the Soviets couldnt beat them what makes you think we can?
So the IRA threat for many years didn't mean anything to you?

Stop wasting young men (and womens) lives needlessly out there I say. Brave? Yes. I agree they are brave but lets not forget you receive army indocrination when you join up. A form of brainwashing. They break you down and make you think 'you are doing it for your mates'/'cant let my mates down'. They train you to fight without personal thought and to follow orders.

Its more complicated than we all think however it pisses me off when someone rattles a saber and says 'anyone else is a soft-cock' when you raise a concern about killing another man (or women and children as sometimes happen with 'mistakes').

The best thing you can do is bring your child up to have independent thought, to challenge and sometimes go against a common-train of thought.

Here we go. How dare someone question our 'brave boys' who are obviously all 'heroes'. Personally I reckon that volunteering to kill and maim people you've never met at the behest of someone else is anything but brave.

I too would be concerned at the forces doing a recruitment drive at a family event, especially when they portray joining the army as an adventurous fun-fest (remember those where's Frank adverts which showed him strolling down a tropical beach with a girl on his arm?). If they're going to recruit at things like this, then they should at least be honest. Maybe have a few 'in the field' videos of people getting their legs blown off, some graphic shots of the aftermath of battle etc.

Need a tissue Princess?

Hora, mate you've lost me completely.
Edit- well on part of it anyway.

I simply believe it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak and oppressed. I have no argument with a polly socio/economic globe. I believe the Truman doctrine and the Marshall plan were erroneous ideals best consigned to history along with McCarthyism. However likewise a lassies faire non interventionist attitude does bring to the fore the “all it takes is for evil to triumph…" maxim.

I disagree with the military being used as a political blunt instrument to enforce and ideal on people, and the consequent failure to address the subsequent political vacuum in a destabilised multi ethnic proto state will always begat a long term period of instability, the consequent re-drawing of the global map post two world conflicts still has ramifications today.

I really don't understand what you mean about the IRA or your references to heroin or George Bush (PS you DO know he's no longer in power don't you?).

I heartedly agree that to waste the lives of young men and women through a needlessly long and pointless conflict (we fought our way in, now lets fight our way out) is pointless. But there will always be a tipping point between sticking your nose in where it doesn’t belong and looking out for the little guy. To systematically introduce the chance to develop a more egalitarian society in a country previously unfairly ruled does have a precedent, the success of the Kurdish society in the enforced Iraqi no fly zone after the Gulf conflict in the nineties and the developments of the post conflict former Yugoslavian areas is a testament to that.

However nothing’s black and white and I think I’ve veered way off the intended target here.

I whole heartedly applaud those who are able to question everything and I dissagree with the use of force as an instant resort. I think the aid workers, charrity workers, volunteer doctors and many others are just as heroic.
And yes I think to present an informed choice and not to pretend the army is just for making rope bridges would be a better concept.

Edit- Hora your last paragraph, re an informed choice is kind of my point too I think.

Hora, mate you've lost me completely.

He has this effect.

If they're going to recruit at things like this, then they should at least be honest. Maybe have a few 'in the field' videos of people getting their legs blown off, some graphic shots of the aftermath of battle etc.

I assume that you don't work in recruitment then because i'm sure that's not a very good way of recruiting.

I can't think of one company that recruits based on an approach where they tell you about all the overtime you'll end up doing, how you wont be able to take holidays when you really want, about the bureaucracy that you'll encounter on a daily basis. When I bought my bike the company didn't show me images of what might happen if I crash.

The Forces don't lie in their recruitment campaigns but they apply some business sense and sell the appealing stuff.

Don't forget that there is an interview process prior to joining where people are sifted so those that are under any misguided view of what the forces do just don't make it through.

They break you down and make you think 'you are doing it for your mates'/'cant let my mates down'.

Break you down or make you aware? Perhaps those people that go into high risk environments to rescue wounded/trapped colleagues do so because they feel they should, not because they've been told to.

Have you noticed that we only attack countries with badly-formed or zero armies?

Have you noticed that we only attack countries with badly-formed or zero armies?

Good point,

But, could that be a tell tale sign of a failed state with a high potential for insurrection and civil strife with consequent oppresion?

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Doubt anybody on here would dare call Wilfred Owen a c0ck for writing those lines.

This always gets to me. How can anyone willingly go into battle?:
What passing bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.

No mockeries now for them; no prayers nor bells;
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs,
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.

What candles may be held to speed them all? –
Not in the hands of boys, but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of good-byes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;

Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

I've just been through this thread and edited/warned some of the contributors.
I know some of you are in the forces or ex-forces but that does not give you the right to verbally abuse the OP for his opinions or how he chooses to raise his children.

I won't be editing or warning anyone else. I'll just hit the ban button!

How can anyone willingly go into battle?

Well, I'm thankful they did, not least in 1939 – although I share the OP's discomfort at some aspects of recruitment. I remember looking after a tankie of some three decades' service, who would get very angry if he overheard anybody glorifying combat.

Besides, I think it's entirely possible to be supportive of HM Forces, without condoning the fcuktard conflicts inwhich they have been deployed, as of late. Kipling's lines still ring true:

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap

hora – Member
Have you noticed that we only attack countries with badly-formed or zero armies?

Not quite true now. Argentina in 82 (I won't bore with the details), Iraq in 90 (3rd largest army in the world and a real threat of chemical weapons).

hora – Member
Have you noticed that we only attack countries with badly-formed or zero armies?

The Taliban Badly formed?

Hardly, we trained them in the late 70's and early 80s..

Iraq: Badly formed and drained from a very costly war with Iran. Where were their airforce?
What chemicals again?

Argentina: So you are saying the land forces of the Argentines were covering themselves in glory? The Air force is a different matter..

In addition, we didnt invade to effect a regime change in Argentina. We only went so far to take back our two Islands.

Taliban isn't a 'Army' is it? We didnt' train the Taliban, we train the Mujahideen. They were trained in guerrilla warfare.

Why didn't we attack the Chinese and affect a regime change? BECAUSE THEY'D HAVE SQUASHED US! 😆
Why are we holding off attacking Iran and North Vietnam? (cough Nuclear?)

You seem to be suggesting as mountain mayhem is 'family event', it is not a good place to recruit.

But princibily mountain mayhem is a 24 hour endurance event invloving moutain bikes, not a family day out.

Some of the key skills to be a good solider surely are fitness/endurance/coping with sleep deprivation.

All of these are tested at events like mayhem, surely its better for the army to recruit people who are actually like to get through the training ?

I'm quite happy to see the army, navy and Raf at events etc, I don't live in a bubble won't allow my kids too either.

Seeing members of the armed forces in person makes you realise that they are normal guys like us. I believe anyone who is prepered to give up their time and lay their life on the line for our country and safety deserves recognition for what they do. I'll quite happily say I couldn't do it.

Its an easy thing to say they don't deserve the term Hero from behind your computer screen in some town over here.

+1 no teeth.

Wish I had put it so succinctly