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A new manager started at work recently. He has said that if you've worked somewhere for 2 years or more you've become institutionalised. He'd also like more 'churn' of staff, that is old staff leaving and new staff replacing them. What's your opinions?
That he's a ****
I am not a number, I am a free man.
Be seeing you.
Sack him in 23months
Depends on the industry. I'm one of those wacky creative types. I was told years ago, by a design business owner that she would never employ anyone who'd been working exclusively in one area for over two years. As by then you've run out of fresh ideas, and you're just being lazy and repeating yourself
FWIW I thought that sounded like utter cobblers then. Even more so now
Don't work for an institution, so can't be institutionalised I suppose.
Churning staff is a pretty weird term. Do you work for a butter institution? Lurpak, perhaps?
People can and do become somewhat institutionalised but personally it would take a lot longer and when it did happen would probably be the time to leave. On the bright side he'll be gone in 2 years 😉
In some industries high staff turnover is good, for some its bad....and it can be good/bad for the staff/business in each instance.
Whatever - by openly stating he wants more 'churn' is either an act of management genius, simply a little atagonistic or he's a complete tool. I have an opinion on which of those three catageories he falls into 😉
I agree with him, but put it at about 3-5 yrs.
Never trust working with someone who's been in the same company for more than 5 yrs because they're less likely to care about you, the client or the quality of the work than how easy a ride they can maintain.
NASA space suit on, and we have lift off.... 😈
We try to minimise voluntary labour turnover. Loosing staff = lower revenue earning, management time to recruit and train, lost client contacts, unsettling to other team members...
What would be an example of a business where higher turnover is good? i'm curious
By his reckoning, I need to find a new job early next year. As it is, my plan is no more than 4 years in this role.
I made a (relatively) bold transition within my profession - though not an unusual one - so I need to get the skills I need and then go in hunt of more (about £20k minimum) money.
P7Pro what line of work are you in?
I worked for the same place for 8 years in total and only when bad manages came in and wrecked everything did I move on a I’m really glad I did. I know it got worse. The next job was 2 year this one coming up to two years now but if by three years there isn’t any sing of promotion then I’ll move on.
swedishmatt: It's an IT department for a finance company.
13 years in, several roles, no industry qualifications, well paid...
yep thats me signed up for the institution...not sure how it happened tbh
What would be an example of a business where higher turnover is good? i'm curious
Pretty much anything unskilled as far as can tell, where the available labour market is large - helps keep wage levels low. Used to work in a meat processing factory where conditions were generally poor, which meant staff turnover was high, but the availabilty of local labour meant there were always many people still applying for jobs where the wages were always actually and relatively low..... which in combination with the working conditions maintained high staff turnover.
Depends on your field of work. Many change all the time, so how do you become institutionalised to something that is always developing? You do not and cannot. If your field hasn't changed since the 1960s, on the other hand, then yeah you'll become institutionalised in your approach (which may mean you're an indispensible technical asset because you know the job inside out).
In an ideal world maybe it would be good to change things up every few years. Anyone talking about 'churn' for churn's own sake in the current climate, though, wants a pickaxe in the head.
19 years in the same job for me.
I get paid well, the coffee is 10p and occasionally they hold a mirror under my nose to see if I'm still breathing.
Almost eight years for me.
Actively trying to think of a way out - self churning, if you will.
Problem is, my job's very niche (not well paid, but niche) and there's not a lot of call for my 'skills', so moving on may not be an option at the moment.
Not institutionalised though. There's way too much chaos here to kick back and spark up my pipe.
What would be an example of a business where higher turnover is good? i'm curious
I've always wondered if kids might benefit from teachers being forced to change schools a bit more often.
I'll tell you what - there are a lot more institutionalised people about to enter the job market.
Those zombies that populate council offices, government departments, job centres and suchlike. Same crumpled suit since 1978, held together entirely by soup stains. Single. Dubious personal hygiene. Quarter bottle of vodka tucked away in inside pocket. Nobody knows what they actually do. Whose only ambition is to make it to the pension without anyone noticing them.
Apparently the resurgent private sector is going to be leaping at the chance to take them all on. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 😕
Send him an invite for his leaving party in 23 months time and then see if he walks the walk.
binners - It will just be proof that the welfare state is only there for the unemployable 🙂
At the 2nd interview for my last job, the MD, sitting reading my CV says something like, "I see you worked for 22 years at blah blah, I personally am concerned about anyone who stays in one job for more than 5 years", to which I replied "so how long have you been here then?" - er um 15 years, when can you start.
Some people don't even beleive what they say as it comes out of their mouths, but they are too sold on following whatever is dressed up as "best practise" this week and/or too lazy to question it.
following whatever is dressed up as "best practise" this week and/or too lazy to question it.
totally agree with this.
it can really depend on the HR/ recruitment process in place at the company and how they interpret your CV and interview responses.
you have to tailor your response to what you think they want to hear.
some recruitment processes are so static and undynamic that I would question whether I wanted to work for a company who had implemented them.
Depends on your role within a business, the creative and energetic roles are where you'd maybe want a turnover and you'd probably get one anyway because those types of people have a wandering eye, The steadfast jobs you want people to hang around, creating a 'corporate memory' so that you don't go repeating mistakes that were made 2 years and 1 month ago.
Some lines of work you can't jump ship all that often though. I used to be in the contemporary art game. Got my proper job at 25, was director of my own venue by 28, ran out of things i wanted to do or places I wanted to work by 31 and effectively retired. Can't even be bothered to walk into a gallery now unless someone pays me to.
Staff leaving costs money, you need to advertise, spend time recruiting, train them, etc. Most modern companies strive for staff retention through staff benefits, working conditions, etc not a high labour turnover.
This new manager will need to explain why he has a high staff turnover, why he's blown his training budget and saying 'staff have become institutionalised' will be laughed out of the boardroom.
Yep some of our systems take 2 years to learn and 5 years to become an expert.
It also depends upon personal circumstances - when you have a family and mortgage just chopping and changing jobs because some tool thinks you should every couple of years might not be the best idea.
I'd tell him to go and churn himself!
P7Pro - Member
A new manager started at work recently. He has said that if you've worked somewhere for 2 years or more you've become institutionalised. He'd also like more 'churn' of staff, that is old staff leaving and new staff replacing them. What's your opinions?
You should have told that isn't how it works here, but in time you're learn how to fit in.
Yep some of our systems take 2 years to learn and 5 years to become an expert.
Really?
dont think it matters how long youve been with a company.
10years in my case (yeaterdays redundancy isnt good news of course) but ive moved within the company from military aircraft, uav, shipbuilding now on civil aircraft. So ive been with differnet teams, different ways of working throughout, am i really less employable?
or would future employers see someone who will stick around, not take all the training then buggar off.
Really?
Yup, didn't feel like I was an expert in the software we design and sell for 3 years, and there are still bits of it now that I feel that I don't know as well as I should (new features mostly)
P7PRO: I think you definitely don't want IT people to leave on a regular basis. I'm not in IT, but I can see how that would be a disaster! (hold on what was the password for that again?). But then if he is from a finance background (the new manager that is) he might be on the lookout for the next deb..I mean investment vehicle!
Institutionalised - mentally ill?
HR - human remains?
17 years in for me
I get paid way above average for doing well below average hours, I've now accrued so many additional days annual leave that I can rival a teacher for time off [43 days this year]
Institutionalised? - I bloody well hope so
From my experience, IT has quite a high turnover....
Does this apply if, despite working for the same organisation, you change posts/roles and working location (not just office but town/city and sometimes country) every 6-24 months...?
Then again, very little has changed in my line of work in the last hundred years or so.
12 years in by the way and 66 additional days' leave accrued in the last 12 months...
Whilst that kind of talk might apply to some roles or industries, it smacks of a manager trying to talk big and impress. And sounding like a cretin.
It's pretty ludicrous really. There are many, many roles where experience of a particular field built up over a number of years is invaluable.
It takes 6 months to learn a job at my place and you are still considered inexperienced up till about 2 years.Oil industry, they are happy with people they know and trust.
Obviously does not take experience into account. At our place it takes years to build up the required knowledge base.
How the hell did he get into management with that outlook
To$$er
actually some of our managers also think the same way, they are bloody useless as well.
Sounds like the big man coming in and banging his chest to make some noise.
Pffft! What a fanny!
When recruiting I would be very cautious about interviewing/hiring an individual whose career was characterized by moving around every couple of years for any responsible professional position.
To me it just smells of someone who can't work through problems, and difficult times, has no loyalty and is only interested in themselves.
If they have moved a lot and they are now a Director of major company, then that is one thing, but if people are just moving without any real progression then I would be very skeptical.
From my experience, IT has quite a high turnover....
depends what level of IT. If you're talking helpdesk operators, perhaps.
At our place I'm 11 years in at the end of October and I'm [i]still[/i] the new guy 😯
Do you want a nurse in intensive care with 2-3 years experience, or 23?
Choose wisely, it may be the only choice you get.
I've worked in 3 places in 11 years, 2 of them finance. He thinks IT - high staff churn good?
The guy is talking out of his arse.
As someone mentioned above, domain knowledge is king, unless of course you have new, up to date, well coded and documented systems....
38 years in the job, 28 at the present site if you've been in a job long enough get to know the new manager's latest idea didn't work last time some whizz kid tried it and it won't work now either. They don't appreciate you telling them that though 🙄
been at our place for 8 years and hate it, i am institutionalised, we have a new manager and he is bringing 'new' people in, irony is our work is very bepsoke and we end up training the new people which is taking the piss... its all going to kick off soon.
8 years in the job, 28 at the present site if you've been in a job long enough get to know the new manager's latest idea didn't work last time some whizz kid tried it and it won't work now either. They don't appreciate you telling them that though
Probably wondering why someone who's been in the job for 38 years isn't in his place or higher making the decisions....
👿 😆
Probably wondering why someone who's been in the job for 38 years isn't in his place or higher making the decisions....
maybe because some of us want to keep doing the job we love.
oh and don't want to play the 'politics' that go with some higher positions.
NASA space suit on, and we have lift off....
One can presume that is a one way trip to planet loon stoner? 😉
33 years in IT for (basically) the same company. As has been said above, knowledge of the older systems is crucial when updating and replacing. And as also said above, some of us did/are doing very well out of not moving "up" the career ladder thank you very much. See that TUPE thread? What happens is that you get transferred over and all the middle managers soon find themselves extraneous to requirements whereas the folk that know the systems are OK.
Why would I want to move any further up the salary scale and end up in a job dealing with people and all the problems that entails, give me machines to deal with any day 😆
I'm on the same pay grade as my team leader but earn more than him due to overtime as it is.
It takes 6 months to learn a job at my place and you are still considered inexperienced up till about 2 years.Oil industry, they are happy with people they know and trust.
Plus One
I'm on a gas platform right now and I find new and inexperienced staff worrisome. (Even people with strong experience elsewhere have a lot of idiosyncrasies to learn about here)
Having said that, when I've spent 3 or 4 years becoming intimate with my workplace, and the gas starts running out, how much effort have I wasted?
binners - Member
I'll tell you what - there are a lot more institutionalised people about to enter the job market.Those zombies that populate council offices, government departments, job centres and suchlike. Same crumpled suit since 1978, held together entirely by soup stains. Single. Dubious personal hygiene. Quarter bottle of vodka tucked away in inside pocket. Nobody knows what they actually do. Whose only ambition is to make it to the pension without anyone noticing them.
Apparently the resurgent private sector is going to be leaping at the chance to take them all on. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Sorry binners, just for once I'm going to have to **** you. You usually make me laugh but not this time. It's not me. It's you. This whole 'anti-public sector' thing is hurting us for no good reason.
Rant over.
Institutionlised (is that a word? - it is now!) - not me: my (IT) contract lasted one day (thanks to asshats, not thanks to me!)
Lesson from today? Don't work for asshats who have no idea how a decent IT application should work.
druidh - Member
33 years in IT for (basically) the same company. As has been said above, knowledge of the older systems is crucial when updating and replacing. And as also said above, some of us did/are doing very well out of not moving "up" the career ladder thank you very much. See that TUPE thread? What happens is that you get transferred over and all the middle managers soon find themselves extraneous to requirements whereas thee folk that know the systems are OK.
I would agree that experienced IT systems people are essential as I have found that most of a system's functionality is not written down on paper rather it is stored in somebody's head!
For me work/life balance also came into it. I was keen to take on more once and was given it, but then reached a stage when I was happy with the time/stress in work and that spent at home with my wife and children and saw what was happening to those a level or two above me and realised it was time to slow down 🙂
last place i had a perm job i was there a total of 12 years in a few different roles, but for the shop floor took 5+ years to actually learn all the tricks to make the products. Old machines with certain oddities, yes you could learn the basics in a year or two, but when things went wrong.
It took me 2 years to get good at my last job, and that was considered freakishly fast (most people never get good at it). But that time was spent at least in part institutionalising me. Does he think it's a bad thing?
I worked for 6 years in a large psychie hospital, we all had our own lockers, chairs and cups, and we didnt like it if somebody sat on outr chair or we where given a different cup, by the trainee nurses.
Then we had to try and instill in the patients how not to become institutionalised.
I find myself institutionalised after 14 years in the same company, my only real job since leaving university. However, I have a huge knowledge of the industry and legacy systems so I think I am one of the 'old hands' so to speak. The pay me enough to mean I have never seriously looked for another job and I have moved around departments enough to keep it interesting. If I make it to 25 years I'll have enough money to retire.
I've been at risk of redundancy enough times to make sure I work hard enough to avoid it, so not sure that the gravy train analogy is true.
I've also worked with and recruited people who move about every 3 months to 2 years and they end up having no accountability for their delivery and more often than not its the 'old hands' who are left picking up the pieces...
I'm on a gas platform right now and I find new and inexperienced staff worrisome. (Even people with strong experience elsewhere have a lot of idiosyncrasies to learn about here)Having said that, when I've spent 3 or 4 years becoming intimate with my workplace, and the gas starts running out, how much effort have I wasted?
I am on gas side in FPS and was informed today that there is still 20 years left Oliverd so no immediate worries
Your manager is a tool. But there is a grain of truth.
The problem of inertia largely affects managers. As decision makers they get very stuck in their process which prevents the company exploring new methods and markets and stifles progress. This is dangerous because a less established competitor can fly straight past .
As already pointed out, the principle is less applicable to expert and technical roles where both wide and deep experience are key.
Well many bands and musicians end up just churning out the same type of stuff that they did at first, but by then it lacks the freshness and originality. See Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, Rolling Stones and anyone else well past their sell by date.
Some jobs need consistency though. Sometimes you need someone who knows where everything is, how everything works. Less and less jobs need such people now though sadly, in this age of instant disposability.
12 years experience can often be more accurately described as 2 years experience repeated 6 times
I have worked for the same company for 36 years exactly today
Undertaken many different roles as technology has advanced, so reckon he is just talking a load of old cobblers
P7Pro - Member
swedishmatt: It's an IT department for a finance company.
I'm guessing he's worried about all the knowledge being in someone's head - what happens when that person falls ill / retires / gets hit by a bus? There're still a fair amount of people out there that try to guarantee their jobs by making themselves indispensable.
Still, there are better ways to go about covering that problem without the massive hassle (and cost) that this idiots's proposing.
I am on gas side in FPS and was informed today that there is still 20 years left Oliverd so no immediate worries
Not in the industry no, just on my Platform
[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQbJJ0mj8u2OSBFzM9_5j-RRIiLqR3TkUYdeYtPovFUBVYcatM9Zw [/img]
What's his name?
