[Closed] Are travellers an ethnic group ?

For the purposes of the various anti discrimination laws they are an ethnic group - or rather a alliance of several such groups.

Some are an ethnic group, some are "new age" trvellers who are usually stoners from oxfordshire. But yeah, "proper" Gypsies rather than travellers are considered to be an ethnic group.

the Annual School Census notes a pupil's ethnicity - out of the 100 or so ethnic groups there is a group called 'white irish traveller' and another is 'roma gypsy'. So based on this data alone, yes.

roma gypsies are a ethnic group
irish pikeys are not.

I think the term traveller to describe all people who choose to live a nomadic (or semi-nomadic) lifestyle is problematic. I am a cyclist but I am sure there as many 'types' of cyclists as there are folks riding bikes.
I would am a traveller. I have been for over seven years but I am not Romany, Irish, new-age or pikey! I'm a man who lives in a van who has no home. I'm also a cyclist (and many other things too)!

Most Irish travellers are white Europeans they are simply travellers. The only true gypsies are ROMA and ant at all like the Irish travels, as they came from India a few 1000 years ago.

Traditional ‘gypsies’ (as opposed to travellers) are capable of being a racial group on the basis of ethnic origin (Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton [1989] QB783)

what about Geordies, Scousers, Cockneys etc

roma gypsies are a ethnic group
irish pikeys are not.

No, irish Pikeys are an ethnic group, are they british? are they the majority population in the UK? no, therefore by definition they are of a minority ethnic group.

Now whether they should be given special treatment, that is a different question, and on that score i would also say no. If you want to teach your children their heritage that is the parents issue, but should the state be subsidising any form of racial segregation?

irish pikeys are not.

Incorrect. Unless it's just in the uninformed ignorant opinion of the person that said it.

Anyway, even if he is from Nailsea, and looks like a bit of a pikey, deluded has it. And he [i]should[/i] know. 😉

No. They're just caravaners. Very annoying people.

In my experience, "Travelers" are people who choose to opt out of society when it suits them but expect to enjoy its benefits and the respect of those that are fully paid-up members of a tax-funded society.

The fact that they want permanent homes, yet still enjoy the benefits of a nomadic existence (ie not pay any tax or be encumbered by any planning laws) really grinds my gears.

I should have made it clear that I meant the Transit van & Caravan travellers, not the Hippy Bus travellers.
Although that does raise an interesting point.
If they are not a separate race, but just "ordinary" people who have chosen to live that way, why are they considered an ethnic group for anti-discriminatory laws when hippies are not ?

On a vaguely similar theme, I get PPE supplied at work.
I asked for some vegan safety boots.
Under recent changes to the law, for my employer to refuse to supply them would be discrimination, along the lines of racial or religious discrimination.
I chose to become vegan of my own free will, and I could give it up if I wanted to.
Could I choose to become a traveller if I wanted to ?
Obviously, I could buy a caravan and live in it, but could I become an ethnic traveller without being born in to it ?

Nope. 'Obtain' a massive Mitsubishi 4x4 and 6-birth touring caravan and you're in.

Most Irish travels are white and Europeans, Roma are a ethinc group..the Irish are not a ethnic group.

The only true gypsies are ROMA and ant at all like the Irish travels, as they came from India a few 1000 years ago

@ Shibboleth

Wow! What a load of bigotted generalisation!

In terms of criminal offences - a racial group is defined under s. 28(4) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. In each case hostility must be based on the relevant person’s membership of a racial group, i.e. membership of a group of people defined by reference to

Race
Colour
Nationality
Ethnic Origins
National Origins

in determining whether or not a group is defined by ETHNIC ORIGINS, the courts will have regard to the judgement in the House of Lords in Mandla v Dowell Lee [1983] 2 AC 548. In that case it was decided that Sikhs were such a group after considering

a long shared HISTORY
a CULTURAL TRADITION of their own
a common GEOGRAPHICAL ORIGIN or descent from a small number of common ANCESTORS
a common LANGUAGE
a common RELIGION
the CHARACTERISTIC of being a MINORITY or OPPRESSED or a DOMINANT group within a larger community.

MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
The only true gypsies are ROMA and ant at all like the Irish travels, as they came from India a few 1000 years ago

I believe this has only been proved recently with modern DNA tests.
Wasn't it widely believed at one time that Gypsies were from Egypt ?
So, are "white Irish travellers" a separate race, going by DNA tests ?

nope they are the same as us. were all the ****ing same any way just with diffrent "colour ways"

Milky, why? Do you know what "bigotted" (sic) means?

The fact that they want permanent homes, yet still enjoy the benefits of a nomadic existence

Where do you get this startling info from? I thought the whole point was that they [i]don't[/i] want permanent homes.

yes many of the Irish travels also own homes.

Actually most Roma people are not travellers. The majority of them live in their own community in Romania and have done for the last 1000 years. Of the current ' travelling' community, there is a law of thirds, in that a third are static, a third travel, but very much within the samelocal area / county, and a third travel wider, has been this way for while, though i dunno how long.

deluded, that's interesting. So, to use my examples above, Hells angels, The Salvation Army and vegans don't fit that definition.
Do travellers though ?

tablesalt, I appreciate your point in trying to avoid divisiveness, but I find the "Out of Africa" theory and the way the Basques are not related to any other Europeans for example fascinating.
It's a shame things like this can't be discussed without offensiveness or defensiveness from one side or the other.

I thought the whole point was that they don't want permanent homes.

You've never heard of Dale Farm, for example?

Ahhh. Mandla v Dowell Lee. I wrote my final year dissertaion for my law degree on that case and whether or not Irish Travellers could be considered an ethnic group by applying that test. This was before there was race relations legislation in place in NI.

I concluded they could but then so could people from the nationalist tradition here but reclassing sectarian crime / discrimination as racial would open up a whole new can of worms.

reclassing sectarian crime / discrimination as racial would open up whole new can of worms.

That was quite an insightful prediction Shooterman...

MTG

I'm no expert (just flicking through my police manuals) but for the purposes of criminal offences I'd say your 'common or garden' traveller is NOT an ethnic group but traditional gypsies are, having regard to the case law above.

OY DD - just noticed that - Cheeky little tinker. Next time you want to convey your bikes you'll have to use a pony & trap 😀

Cheeky little tinker

Racially fruity language from a Polis.

*emails link to thread to Portishead*

😛

😀

So ...
Romanian heritage and ancestors = Yes
Egyptian heritage and ancestors = Yes
Opt out of the system and buy a van and offer to cut yer hedges = No

Portishead is not as beautiful as Avonmouth.

My Granny was of Roma descent.. no-one in our family has travelled for generations though really (although I quite fancied the new-age bit in my youth..)

So I'm not a traveller or a gypsy.. but I firmly believe that anyone who still has the pride and mettle to turn their back on the life of senseless consumerism and blind obedience that the British wage slave chooses.. whatever their ancestry happens to be.. has earned the right to call themselves whatever they like and has far more right to the land than any of us..

My ACPOS diversity booklet states...'There are several categories of people within the group defined as Gypsies and Travellers. 1) Romany and Irish Travellers, 2) Fairground and Circus Travellers, 3) New Age Travellers and 4) Gypsies.

Romanies are recognised as a distinct ethnic minority group and are protected by the RR(A) Act 2000.

Irish Travellers are a distinct occupational group and have a language of their own called 'cant' or 'gammon'.

So that's how it is in Scotland anyway.

salvation army arnt an ethnic groip they cant hav sexule partners hells angles maybe but they spekeenglish

😆

yunki - Member
I firmly believe that anyone who still has the pride and mettle to turn their back on the life of senseless consumerism and blind obedience that the British wage slave chooses.. whatever their ancestry happens to be.. has earned the right to call themselves whatever they like and has far more right to the land than any of us..

Far and away the biggest load of twaddle I've ever read on this forum... And this is a forum that ranks as off-the-scale on my twaddlometer.

Sometimes the world just needs Mark Datz to cut through the BS and get right to the heart of the matter.. 🙂

Far and away the biggest load of twaddle I've ever read on this forum...

thanks very much for enlightening us with that insight Shabby.. 😀

Far and away the biggest load of twaddle I've ever read on this forum

Nah; your bigoted rant about tatoos was far twaddlier. 😀

mmmmmmm..... twaddle

[img] [/img]

If they are not a separate race, but just "ordinary" people who have chosen to live that way, why are they considered an ethnic group for anti-discriminatory laws when hippies are not ?

Interesting one I don't have any answers. There is a group of hippies who have been parking up somewhere in the New forest for a few weeks over the past few winters. They are very conscientious of there litter and do seem to be left alone more, but it may also be because they are not Transit and caravan travellers as well. I don't know.

Itinerant worker, living in a beat up old caravan, sometimes forgets to pay his taxes..... Is this molgrips we're talking about? 😆

On the grounds that one can't just change one's ethnicity by buying a caravan & living illegally on someone else's land...no. Isn't that obvious?

Are there travellers who might be of a different ethnicity? Of course.

Common sense, facts, and the law don't always go hand in hand though.

living illegally on someone else's land

[url= http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/pjproudhon/whatisproperty/toc.htm ]what is property? - Pierre Joseph Proudhon [/url]

I keep hearing that there are some nasty traveller folk who get the good ones a bad name. Well, in 36 years, every group of travellers who have pitched up in our vicinity have been a shower of dirty, messy, unruly ba5tards.

I'm sceptical.

I'll also be careful here. I have lived about 1/2 a mile from a council traveller site for the last 12 years. Not a day gies by without some trouble, like the time group of teenagers rounded on my then 5 y.o. Son, or when they kicked my fences in, when they nicked the tree cutters chainsaw (the n a month later asked if we wanted our hedges cut), when they drove their motorbikes over my garden, when they put my window through....

Police are scared, so in my opinion (without wishing to upset the cry babies on STW) theycan **** right off. Dirty ****ing horrible pikey bastards.

(and that's me being careful)

careful, now sc-xc. You'll be accused of reading the DM at that rate.

You need to visit their site and ask about their history, they'll no doubt welcome you in and regale you with tales of life on the road and maybe sing you a traditional travellers song passed down through the generations.

Travellers? are they the thieving
pikey non tax paying scum who infest my village for our fair every year leaving crap everywhere fighting each other ,running crap horses at the locals and charging old ladies 100s to trim hedges which they dump in laybys?

As long as they are law abiding, pay tax and national insurance they can be lablelled what they want.
However from personal experience,they are none of these things!

And these racism toubled travellers have nicked two of my bikes!

i'll add to this post before my edit option vanishes, I had to attempt to integrate these things into my educational authority, it almost caused me to resign, It cant be done, these people cannot fit into a normal "respectful" society.

To my bosses - If you see this post, please do not sack me.

if you'd care to travel to gracie fields birthplace you ll find a council estate with at least whole street of council semis used by white irish travellers when there not travelling

I know what'll settle this, I'll quote from Wikipedia!

"An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[1][2][3] Another definition is "...a highly biologically self-perpetuating group sharing an interest in a homeland connected with a specific geographical area, a common language and traditions, including food preferences, and a common religious faith".[4]

Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness."

Wikipedia votes yes, they are.

if wiki says it's so..it must be

I know what'll settle this, I'll quote from Wikipedia!

You can't be serious? That's a US site, HTF does that relate to the UK? Have you actually read some of the bilge on Wikipedia?

So are paedophiles an ethnics group?

So given I'm 1/4 Irish, if I buy a caravan and park on somebody else's land can I reclassify myself as "white irish traveller"? Or do I also have to steal stuff and leave behind a mess when I leave?

aracer - Member

So given I'm 1/4 Irish, if I buy a caravan and park on somebody else's land can I reclassify myself as "white irish traveller"? Or do I also have to steal stuff and leave behind a mess when I leave?

Yes & Yes if my experience in these matters is the usual event

Are the English an ethnic group or just a shitty German sub group?

Are the English an ethnic group or just a shitty German sub group?

Yes In this country it seems so, ( to the first bit).

TuckerUK - Member
That's a US site, HTF does that relate to the UK?

Is the concept of ethnicity different here than anywhere else?

TuckerUK - Member

So are paedophiles an ethnics group?

According to that definition, no they aren't. What's your point caller?

I'm a traveller and I am law abiding. I pay tax and national insurance. I don't and never have I claimed any sort of benefits. I try not to make sweeping generalisations or call people names either.

travelers; yes. dirty thieving fly-tipping pikies who shit in the woods where i walk my dogs and leave a trail of filth wherever they go. no.

seriously, it's a maze of crap and bog paper. cretins

So are paedophiles an ethnics group?

get of my land, or i blow ur ****ing head off.

I'm glad no-one has reported this thread (yet)

It's a very neat list of members attitudes and intelligence..
Whilst I fully understand the sentiment.. it's the application of objectivity that's most telling..

I vote we bump often and make this thread a sticky.. 😀

It's a very neat list of members attitudes and intelligence.

I'm sightly concerned that you feel you need a list

a bit too Oskar Schindler perhaps...?

Someone else kept a list or two around that time....

my granny did.. usually shopping lists I think..
for making nice cakes and tha'

I think we've done this now.

Sun's out - time to ride?