Are the Isrealis the new Nazis?

Agreed, RudeBoy, and apologies to you for that, but I think it has to be understood that actions have consequences, and that Israelis in general cannot expect that the man on the Clapham omnibus is going to forget everything and extend the hand of friendship while their elected government is pursuing a vile policy of slaughter of innocent people.

Surely Ulster has shown that the only way to end a terrorist threat is to sit down and talk. For all that we threw at the IRA we never came close to wiping them out.

Abserfuckinlootely. If there was an economy in Gaza that was not destroyed by Israel, a young guy looking to feed his family could go out and work in a shop, or an olive oil factory, or pursue his career as a graphic designer, or go to university. Now all he can do is go work for Hamas, whether he wants to or not. The Israelis, in a spectacular show of brutalilty and stupidity have ensured that Hamas is the only game in town. If I were paranoid I’d suspect it was deliberately done, just to get the excuse to fulfill their real goal of driving the Palestinians into the sea.

Tankslappper,

Regarding accusations of a disproportionate response. It is a clear fact and understatement that the Palestinians are suffering a great deal more than we are. However, if the aim is to stop the ability of the Hamas and its allies to attack, this cannot be acheived by attacking them a little bit, as this guarantees failure, it involves killing enough of their fighters to force them into submission. There have been minor incursions into Gaza resulting in no useful outcome and several soldiers coming back in body bags. Negotiation has been tried, largely through Egyptian mediation and failed. I don’t know if the present action will work but the time for tolerance has passed. Hamas cannot demand normal relations as well as the right to launch rockets.

It is very true that the outcome of this fighting is unclear. Will it have the effect of stopping the Hamas attacks? I hope so. Unfortunately the only guaranteed outcome is that the people who die will be dead, those suffering will continue to suffer, and the levels of hatred will have been stoked. What do you suggest we do, allow the rockets to continue? The intent of Hamas seems to be to turn themselves and their population into Shahidin (Martyrs) for some insane religious/political end, instead of building a situation where they can live and work in peace. What I am trying to say is that they too have responsibility for this situation.

I have a baby girl and a three year-old son, I cannot watch Palestinian children being killed and maimed due to the actions of my government without asking myself if the lives of my children are worth more than theirs. The answer is surely not, but on this occasion I cannot see how the situation could be avoided. A woman at work lost her nephew a while back to a Hamas rocket when he drove to a meeting in Sderot for work. I live just out of range of the rockets, people I work with live in range, and are sleeping in shelters, the children in my village are at home because their school is in range. No government on earth would allow this to happen to their population, we don’t have the luxury of being “popular”, when under attack before without any large scale response were we popular? I don’t think so.

Britain has also faced attack by Islamic fanatics of a similar mind-set on the London Transport system, after turning a blind eye to the activities of exhiled fundamentalists resident in Britain for over a decade. Such atrocities are a logical conclusion of their preached philosophy. Britain has also invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Britain and France drew-up the borders of the Middle East at the end of WW1. Britain sanctioned the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the 1917 Balfour Declaration, and governed as a colonial power until the going got rough. Britain has no right to claim the moral high ground. Some British people may be disgusted by the actions of their goverment and military, but the terrorist intent on killing them will not ask about their sentiments. I also hold British citizenship, and therefore am doubly deserving of self-righteous condemnation in the minds of those who fail to make the distinction between someones nationality and some sort of moral culpability for a situation out of their control.

I have a baby girl and a three year-old son, I cannot watch Palestinian children being killed and maimed due to the actions of my government without asking myself if the lives of my children are worth more than theirs. The answer is surely not, but on this occasion I cannot see how the situation could be avoided

Please, I’m going to puke. You can make a start on avoiding killing children by simply not dropping bombs on schools. Simple enough, I would have thought.

What do you suggest we do, allow the rockets to continue?

I suggest you get out of the occupied territories.

I suggest that you stop taking land from the Palestinians.

I suggest that you stop destroying the livelihoods of Palestinians.

I suggest that you go back to your homeland.

See, Whargrider, I could take you more seriously, if you actually bothered to consider why the Palestinians are so enraged against Israel. Do you seriously think they would attack Israel, a much more powerful military force, for no good reason? That is what you must ask of your society.

As for the rocket attacks, whilst not wishing to justify the actions of murderers, have you considered the informaiton that ernie lynch included in his post earlier, about the dropping of cluster anti-personel bombs in the West Bank? Have you any idea what devastation these devices cause? And have you no idea of the use of chemical and biological weapons, by your country’s military?
Use of nerve gas by Israel

You have to accept the fact, that your nation is seen as an evil agressor, by most of the World’s people. And with good reason. Israel has refused to sign up to any International agreements regarding the disclosure of weapons of mass destruction, something which even Iraq did. And there is proof of the use of weapons, as banned under the Geneva Convention, by Israel, in Lebanon and Palestine.

Your nation has forfeited the right to expect sympathy. If you want to know why, then look at the facts, and stop burying your head in the sand.

I can’t help thinking that the Palestinians would have had their state a long time ago if they had only chosen peaceful protest as a means of acheiving their legitimate aims.

Yep, without a doubt. Not blowing people up worked better for the IRA than blowing them up. In fact if it wasn’t for the IRA there’d have been a united independent Ireland in the 50s. You could blame the Germans I suppose…

Ernie Lynch,

“I suggest you get out of the occupied territories.”
I personally am not in them but agree thet my government should absolutely get out instead of bowing to the extremist settlers. Did we not already pull out of Gaza?

“Stop taking land from Palestinians,” I agree absolutely.

“Stop destroying the livelihoods of Palestinians,” an obvious pre-requisite for peace.

“Suggest that you go back to your homeland,” it is your prerogative to suggest. I will come back to visit my family sometimes.

The state of Gaza is a direct result of decades of foolish Israeli governments’ policy, indeed we reep what we sow. At some point though you have to put this aside. We pulled out of Gaza, and still we get attacked by potentially lethal rockets on a regular basis.

What would your suggested reaction be if you were similarly attacked, to sit by and let it happen?

What would your suggested reaction be if you were similarly attacked, to sit by and let it happen?

If the Palestinians had a proper life with a future to build for – not a hole in the ground where an Israeli bomb dropped on their house, or a bullet in their head where a settler wanted their olive groves – then Hamas would not get volunteers to stick leaflets in letterboxes, let alone get themselves killed by shooting a pop-gun at the US Israeli army.

You made this choice – maybe stupidly, maybe cynically – yours is the responsibility for the consequences.

Did we not already pull out of Gaza?

Ah, I see that you didn’t read the article by Seumas Milne which I posted earlier.

Let me repeat :

“But that is to turn reality on its head. Like the West Bank, the Gaza Strip has been – and continues to be – illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. Despite the withdrawal of troops and settlements three years ago, Israel maintains complete control of the territory by sea, air and land. And since Hamas won the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel has punished its 1.5 million people with an inhuman blockade of essential supplies, backed by the US and the European Union.”

I am not a blind supporter of the actions of my government, they didn’t ask my approval regarding the use of cluster bombs in the last Lebanon war nor would they have gained it if they had.

I don’t remember asking for sympathy for my nation or for myself. I am expressing my own personal opinion, and stand by it.

All extremism is crap and all extremists are c**ts and should be stabbed to death whilst they are still suckling at their mothers breast, then they and their mothers should be boiled in oil as an example to the rest of you feckers……… that and rendering them down after would solve population issues and the fuel crisis simultaneously, and is obviously the way forward that any of us right thinking and God fearing folk would come to if we gave up the triple sins of sex drugs and alcohol and rode our bikes religiously every sunday …….Am I right?….. Can I have an Amen on that?

😉

FFS Tanky when are you going to stop winding people up and get over here to the flat lands to ride your bike? We’ve got a round of Thetford Winter Series Race at our place on the 25th, and I bet I can persuade the old snuffler to let you sleep in the spare room that weekend, and then we can get right royally pi44ed and everything! 8)

G

Yet you appear to condone the actions of your nation, and act as an apologist for it.

As for terrorism, ever heard of Mossad?

Eh, Mossad ?

Why look at just Mossad ?

Surely the IDF can be classed as a terrorist organisation ?

Dear me…I do hope someone comes and shuts this thread down soon.

DrJ

I agree with your assertion that if the Palestinians had more chance for a proper future they would not be driven to desperate means. However I fail to see what they expect to acheive by the indescriminate launching of rockets against a civilian population, particularly after Israel has already withdrawn from their territory (in the case of the Gaza strip). Nothing NOTHING can justify the criminal murder of Palestinians on extremist racist settlers, who literally do get away with murder, as this is not dealt with seriously by our government. I totally agree, and have in the past excercised my democratic right to protest against such abuses.

However, in the case of the Hamas regime in Gaza, we are not talking about a few Palestinians throwing stones in frustration at their occupation. We are talking about the criminal actions of an organization responsible for the goverment of the Gaza Strip and the welfare of over 1.5 million residents. This organization had the ability to choose not to attack innocent Israeli citizens on a regular basis. I fail to see what benefit this brings to the popultation of Gaza, or how it could possibly improve their situation? We made them do it? Their interests would be far better served by peacefully stating their point, by demonstrating their ability to resposibly govern the Gaza strip in preparation for proper statehood. This would display to the world their legitimate right to a state, and undermine any justification for Israeli aggression or occupation. In their clinging to irrational violence, they have lost any moral ground they may have had. Israel has declared war on Hamas with disastrous consequences for the innocent residents of Gaza, and for the Palestinians as a whole. Israel is responsible for the defence of its civilians against such mindless aggression which CANNOT be justified. Anybody who justifies these attacks merely gives sanction to the continuation of the inevitable war which now manifests itself, and cannot claim to seriously promote the eleviation of the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Good Night, the outcome of this war of words isn’t going anywhere, just the same as the “peace” process. Very, very depressing. Not getting slagged off by you lot, a lot of people are going to be doing some very real suffering tonight, it’s cold out. And for what, the arrogant gesturing of a bunch of criminal lunatics? IGMC.

I do hope someone comes and shuts this thread down soon.

I don’t. At least this is a forum where people can share/exchange ideas, and have a reasonably intelligent debate. And maybe some of us will be inspired to find out more, and learn something. And maybe, just maybe, use that knowledge for good.

However I fail to see what they expect to acheive by the indescriminate launching of rockets against a civilian population

What they expect to achieve is a place at the negotiating table, once the Israelis have realised that the legitimate aspirations of a nation will not be destroyed by the military jackboot. Unfortunately for all concerned, the Israelis are rather stupid in realising this, which prolongs the suffering on all sides.

particularly after Israel has already withdrawn from their territory (in the case of the Gaza strip)

As has already been pointed out to you a few times, this is just a fiction as long as the Israelis control all access to and from Gaza. Gaza has no autonomy or independent existence. Israel has created the world’s biggest concentration camp.

Their interests would be far better served by peacefully stating their point, by demonstrating their ability to resposibly govern the Gaza strip in preparation for proper statehood.

This has been tried over and over again, but the Israelis never give anything in return for peace – either in Palestine or in Lebanon. They have a blank cheque from the US to do anything they like, and they are happy to use it, for short term political reasons, ignoring the bigger picture for themselves, and never giving a tinker’s cuss for the Palestinian “untermenschen”.

who are the criminal lunatics then I keep getting a bit confused here?

Well done for at least trying to explain/defend etc whilst i do not agree with your governments actions (which I know is not the same as your action unlike some on here)or some of what you have said you have earned my respect for at least trying and never rising to the personal attacks some have thrown at you.
Sleep safe and lets hope we can all wake up in a better world.

the arrogant gesturing of a bunch of criminal lunatics

A perfect description. Fits the Israelis to a “t”.

Reasonably intelligent debate? Er, yes quite. The latter posts? I think not. Whargrider has the right idea. Good night.

FWIW I also respect Whargrider, whatever our differences may be. Takes some bottle to come on here, and fly in the face of popular opinion.

If there was an occupying force in this country, I would be not be reasonable, peaceable, or willing to sit down to negotiate.

Thus I cannot expect the Palestinians to behave differently. This will not and should stop until they get their country back.

the palestinians are damned if they do, damned if they dont

Your concern for the suffering of the Palestinian people is truly touching WhargRider.

And I’m sure that many Zionists share in this concern.

It reminds me of how the Nazis also shared a deep and touching concern for the well-being of the Jewish people. All the Jews had to do they argued, was to fully cooperate with them, get onto the trains that would transport them to the East, whereupon they would start a new happy life.

Right up to the point where they walked through the concentration camp gates below a sign which declared :

“WORK MAKES FREE !”

And even then, the Nazis insisted that the gas chambers be fitted with shower fittings. Because hey, the Nazis only wanted the Jews to be clean and smelling sweetly.

Yes, very very touching indeed.

.

BTW, the Hamas rockets are in response to the Israeli attempt to starve the Palestinians with the enforcement of a blockade. Hamas has said that the rocket attacks will cease if the blockade is lifted.

and so we continue to go round in a circle……

One things for absolute certain, the conflict will be resolved when its resolved, in a room around a table bit like Northern Ireland was. How about we jump the intermediate stages and get to the table bit straight away, then everyone can bugger off and ride their bikes which IMHO is a great outcome.

Oh and by the way my previous post was written with tongue barely in cheek.

Bless and good night

G

One things for absolute certain, the conflict will be resolved when its resolved, in a room around a table bit like Northern Ireland was. How about we jump the intermediate stages and get to the table bit straight away, then everyone can bugger off and ride their bikes which IMHO is a great outcome.

Good plan, but as long as Israel refuses to speak to Hamas, it can’t happen.

Without wishing to spin the roundabout again, I do believe that is a case of both sides going “you first, no YOU first, No you , No You”……etc etc ad infinitum and that ends up with sleeves rolled up and them both rolling around on the ground playground bullies having a punch up.

I reckon the best way to resolve these things is to internationally enforce a law to the effect that anytime a country wants to go to war the children of all their politcians and their extended familes must enlist in the Infantry and be the first to go into action on every occasion that military action is deemed necessary.

Pretty sure most conflicts would not get past go and certainly would not collect £200.

Thinking about it, I should rule the world. We’d have more singletrack, no tax on bike bling, free Stella and Red wine on presentation of an empty camelback with dirt on it, special holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one! Then on Day 2 we’d abolish the FC and replace it with the Singletrack forum, then we’d make all kids learn how to hold a several hour long conversation on appropriate tyre choice……….

Vote for G…… its the way forward, you know it makes sense!

For those who think that the Palestine/Zionist problem can resolved as easily as the Northern Ireland question, I fear that you are deeply misguided.

Quite apart from anything else, there is the little problem of almost 5 million Palestinian refugees in the world.

Yes, that’s 5 million people driven off their own land.

Vote for G!!!

The state of Israel is inbetween a rock and a hard place. If they do nothing Arab interests from surrounding countries will over run them in anyway possible. Remember there are a few in the world who see Israel as an extension of America. Israeli politicians know that a Hawkish-stance wins votes to boot. If you look deeper into the Orthodox/Secular-mix of the population you’ll see that the Orthodox birth rate outstrips Secular-Jews. This in its self is going to create huge problems in the future.

All the best to both sides to be honest. I don’t see any solution anytime soon. Decades of strife lay ahead.

Hora- still talking bollocks, I see!

And how will the increase in the numbers of orthodox Jews become a problem? Many orthodox Jews are actually opposed to Zionism, as the concept goes against their teachings. And Zionism itself is used as a veil for Western attempts at cultural and economic hegemony.

You’re right about their being decades of strife ahead, though. As long as there is conflict and struggle in the Middle East, the West can continue to impose it’s will on the rest of the World. And sell it’s guns and bombs.

Its well known that Secular Jews contribute alot to the economy whereas a large percentage of Orthodox/ultra etc devote the majority of their time to scriptures etc. Theres an inbalance of income etc. That is going to be a big future problem. Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli’s are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.

That’s absolute bullshit, Hora, I’m afraid. Sounds like a bit of anti-orthodox propaganda, to me.

I know Jewish people here, who do business with people in Israel. Many of those are orthodox Jews. Many of whom are quite affluent.

And go take a walk round somewhere like Stamford Hill, where many businesses are Jewish-owned. Go and look at the houses people live in. And tell me they’re sitting around writing scriptures!

Oh vey

Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli’s are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.
In that case they have the opportunity to vote out the party that leads them to war, and to publically express their opposition to being involved in murder. Israel is (as they keep reminding us) a democracy, so they can’t claim that they are fighting against the wishes of the population.

Israel is (as they keep reminding us) a democracy, so they can’t claim that they are fighting against the wishes of the population.
It’s quite possible that the people who are against violence aren’t voting for them. It’s also possible that people are voting for the government, not because they are warmongers, but that despite them being warmongers they are more credible than the opposition. Pure conjecture on my part I’d freely admit, but just cos you live in a democracy doesn’t mean you get the government you’d like.

The thing is it’s not really a difficult problem to solve. Everyone knows that Israel has to withdraw to it’s 1967 borders, the Arab nations have to ackwnollege the existance of Israel as a legitamate state, and Jerusalem will need some joint or independent control, something akin to the vatican state maybe. All sides broadly realise that this is the only solution that can bring some semblence of peace, but they’re all too wrapped up in the baggage of the past to start moving forward to this 🙁

ernie_lynch – Member said :-
For those who think that the Palestine/Zionist problem can resolved as easily as the Northern Ireland question, I fear that you are deeply misguided.
Quite apart from anything else, there is the little problem of almost 5 million Palestinian refugees in the world.

Yes, that’s 5 million people driven off their own land

So of course theres no Irish people who had that happen to them then?

Wally!

Anyway moving on to more important issues Day 3 : One set of free tyres per week on presentation of your bike at your local bike shop. Chain Reaction and Wiggle nationalised, whilst all local bike shops are to have free coffee and cake, plus fit serving birds that talk endless shop whilst leaning their ample cleavages over the counter. DIY lessons for all females, including special emphasis on the significance of doing all major DIY jobs around the house whilst sending your partner off riding to the proof of female equality, All dual carriageways to have the nearside lane turned into bike lanes, the establishment of the annual M25 both ways bike race, one lap clockwise followed by one lap anticlockwise……… still going…….

Ernie – As easily as the N.I. question – oh good, nearly 40 years and 4000 dead – when can we drop you into Gaza then?

G

special holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one!

Love it! You have a career in politics beckoning there fella’!