Personally, I’m more concerned with the needless deaths of innocent people, than my gas supply, as I can always burn something else to keep warm, or move to warmer climes.

Why? It’s not like you know them. They were going to die sooner or later.

Not having central heating, now that is a real problem.

G accomodation here next time your up mate! Can do most weekends if booked in advance. Or you can wait until Dr.Z gets his wings etc and stops screaming ‘it’s alright I’m a Doctor’ in public places when any young lady looks faint 😀

5elephant – that’s scarily how SFB replies………. 🙄

Tank – I doubt it – young women look feint in public as a result of seeing me (and not in a good way 😉 ) so I doubt me pretending to be a real doctor would help! If we were to go gown to G’s flatlands at some point, I can always pick you up on the way too! Unfortunately my little cottage may be a little small to squeeze you both in, but you’d be more than welcome to try.

And back to the real subject…

I’m going to have to turn Newsnight off before I swear any more at that Israeli **** who is those Israeli **** being interviewed

tankslapper – Member

That Hamas are a bunch of murdering cowards who hide behind a civilian population is not in doubt

As far as I am concerned that is very much in doubt.

Rather than “murdering cowards who hide behind a civilian population”, Hamas are indeed very brave civilians who have decided to stand up and fight the brutal Israeli regime.

Gaza is not a country it is a strip of land. Approx 25 miles long by between 4 and 7 miles wide (you could jog across it in a matter of minutes} Within it 1.5 million stateless Palestinian refugees have been crammed in.

They have no army, no navy, no air force and no air defences. Israel has imposed an unlawful blockade designed to starve, kill and break them. Nothing can go in or come out, including food and medicines. Israel is now and has been, bombarding it from land, sea and air.

Cowardly and murderous acts which it commits using the most advanced weaponry available in the world. And in the secure belief that the risks to themselves are practically non-existent.

However, in much the same way as some Jews in the Warsaw ghetto decided to engage in futile resistance against the might of the Nazi armies, Hamas has decided to die whilst fighting back.

Cowardly ? No. Futile ? Maybe.

But it should also be remembered that when Hezbollah first started resisting the murderous Israeli occupation of Lebanon, that too seemed totally futile. Who would have thought that after years of ignoring UN demands to unconditionally withdraw from all Lebanese territory (UN Security Council Resolution 425), Israel would be driven out by armed civilians ?

It wasn’t the US or the UN itself, which forced Israel to comply with UN demands and finally brought peace to Lebanonn, but Hezbollah. The only armed organisation anywhere in the world to confront and defeat Israel.

And whilst on the subject of bravely resisting the cowardly and murderous government of Israel, the bravery of many Israelis should also not be forgotten.People like Mordechai Vanunu who told the world of Israel’s Weapons of Mass Destruction, and paid such a heavy price. And all the young Israelis who would rather face jail than take part in the slaughter of Palestinians.

For a different angle, I strongly recommend this very short article which appeared in The Irish Times, a paper which I don’t believe is particularly noted for being “pro-terrorist”

Israel broke ceasefire by killing six

.

BTW, I have noticed a particular comment mentioned a couple of times on this thread along the lines of, “why didn’t other countries take the Palestinians if they cared so much about them” to justify what Israel is doing.

I find that comment particularly offensive as it is identical to the one used by many pro-Nazi Germans to justify what they did to the Jews in WW2 i.e. : “why didn’t other countries take the Jews if they cared so much about them”.

Well said ernie lynch.

This thread represents, quite simply, EVERYTHING I hate about those with a sanctimonious attitude, a bleeding heart outlook and an ability to talk rather than do.

Remember the International Brigades? From a generation when people of conscience actually DID something rather than whimpered on public forums?

If you feel strongly about something then go help. If not, STFU.

If the English Army had killed 100 children there would be a massive outcry.

Funny that. No one dare go there too much for fear of being anti-semitic.

From a generation when people of conscience actually DID something rather than whimpered on public forums?

Damn straight. I’m off to don a bomb belt and sit on a tube train. That’ll show em.

Today’s terrorist is tomorrow’s iconic hero.

Check out Nelson Mandela.

Check out Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams………

Precisely.

‘We will never negotiate with terrorists’. Really?

The simple truth is that terrorism is the most direct way of achieving a political or social goal.

Terrorism works. Very effectively.

ro: “The simple truth is that terrorism is the most direct way of achieving a political or social goal. Terrorism works. Very effectively.”

Of course it does when there is a will to kill indiscriminately. That is the goal isn’t it? To frighten others into submission?

It is a battle of wits and endurance. They are effective as they slowly grinds you down and others let them because they have much more to loose than them.

Effective? In what sense? What sort of time scale are you talking about? One year? One generation? One century?

It is not effective but merely a way of life and the person who gives up first is the looser.

😯

That is the goal isn’t it? To frighten others into submission?

errr… yes. that’s why it’s call terror-ism

Effective? In what sense?

in bringing about the change being promoted. apart from malaysia and kenya – and perhaps the basque nationalists – active members of most terrorist organizations over the last 50 or so years have gone on to become legitimate members of a ‘government’. they have not paid for their crimes, not in a meaningful sense anyway.

hamas or their successors will bring about change, eventually. just as the jewish terrorists were successful in throwing out the brits.

like i said, terrorism works.

So – define “terrorist”. In general it seems to mean “the other guy”, and using the word “terrorist” only conveys your politcal affiliation without saying anything about the situation itself.

well, in the context under discussion, we have a palestinian group engaging in acts of indiscriminate rocket and small arms fire and the use of suicide bombers against military and civilian targets, and we have a israeli conventional army engaged in acts of indiscriminate tank, air-launched weapon and small arms fire against civilian and military targets.

both sides claim their fire to be ‘targeted’. both are liars. both are using terrorist tactics.

apart from the fact that the israeli guys look a lot neater and have some pretty cool weaponry, there’s not a lot of difference between them really.

so, drj, who are the terrorists here? or if that’s too difficult a question for you, is either side abiding by the accepted rules of military conduct in a war situation?

I think it means to use terror as a means to achieve a political aim/goal/objective – ergo you terrorise a population into submitting to your political aim. I think it also shows the strength of feeling /injustice/desperation involved in the cause as you dont get terrorists to improve the railways, have better schools or reduce taxation. You only get it where a group or race of people feel a massive sense of injustice – whether legitimate or not (Blacks in South Africa or USA in 60’s, Catholics in Ireland, Indians under the empire for example
Personally I think that both sides are using terror to achieve a political aim (safe state and actual state/terrirtory).

PS ro why are we agreeing (politely as well) on this point and arguing elsewhere? 😆

junkyard, i think it’s because i’m starting to fall in love with you, in a man-to-man sorta way…

“ahh but are you a sponge or a stone “

Hopefully as scarey /funny as the actual scene in the movie (Withnail and I )

for some reason i still don’t fully understand, i have never seen that movie, so your reference leaves me flummoxed.

but i’m guessing you know i’m not serious… right?

*looks fearfully over shoulder and runs off in abject terror*

so, drj, who are the terrorists here?

Like I said, using the word terrorist just tells you what side I’m on. For what it’s worth, I think it’s pretty clear that the Israelis are the bad guys in this story.

then you’re part of the problem, drj. for until you can see that neither side deserves one ounce of support from anyone, you’ll add to the misery, not bring it to a just and final end.

“…it’s pretty clear that the Israelis are the bad guys in this story.”

I don’t think it’s ‘clear’ at all. In fact, there is very little about this whole sorry episode that is in any way ‘clear’, apart from the intrinsic brutal nature of human beings.

Then we have different interpretations of someone shooting tank shells into a school.

Robert Fisk has some interesting comments about Israel’s culpability

The actions of both sides are reprehensible – I would not seek to support or justify the actions of either side (I would tend to agree with ro’s comment above).

What Israel is doing is barbaric. I read with interest Robert Fisks’ article however it is too one sided (albeit the side I am on!)

Fisk uses numbers to convey his message for example the number of people killed by Palestinian rockets is relativey small given the number killed in the last week by the Israeli army. He doesnt mention that often up to 80 rockets per day are fired into Israel and whilst many dont cause injury the effect must be terrifying.

fisk does not mention the number of rockets , bombs nor bullets fired by Israel he just mentions the casualties. Surely the most accurate method is DEATHS rather than shots fired?

I dont think things can be seperated from intent. The 80 rockets are fired with the intent of killing and maiming innocent (!) people in Israel. They are indiscriminate and are not aimed at soldiers, bases etc but into settlements.
The Isralis’ would claim the deaths they are causing are colatoral damage and the intent is only to kill Hamas rebels.

This has gone on long enough, can you all get together for peace talks. If not can one of you take out all the others and finish the thread as you are being as effective as a bunch of politicians.

And, if you have no interest, why does this concern you, mt?

then you’re part of the problem, drj. for until you can see that neither side deserves one ounce of support from anyone, you’ll add to the misery, not bring it to a just and final end.

But as you pointed out above, I’m just sitting talking, not doing, so I’m not adding to anyone’s misery, thanks all the same.

Still the argument rages I see, about the use by Hamas, of home made wildly inaccurate rockets with a pathetically short range (approx 90 percent of Israelis live beyond their range)

.

For over 40 years Israel has continuously acted illegally towards Gaza violating international law. Amongst the many things which it has done, it has unlawfully occupied the land. It has unlawfully withheld tax receipts. It has unlawfully imposed a blockade. It has violated the Geneva Convention.

The people of Gaza have a lawful right to fight the Israelis. This is a right which is recognised under international law.

To the people who criticise the Palestinians for using their home made Qassams rockets I ask you, how exactly would you suggest that the Palestinians fight the Israelis ? I ask this as a serious question.

And I’m sure that the Palestinians too, are dissatisfied with their Qassams rockets. In the last seven years up until the present Israeli onslaught, the Palestinians have only managed to kill 14 Israelis – probably more Israelis than that died from slipping on their bathroom floors. The Israelis on the other hand, have managed to kill approx 5,000 Palestinians during the same period.

The sad, tragic, truth, is that the problem isn’t that the Palestinians have been killing Israelis with their rockets, it’s the opposite – they haven’t been killing Israelis.

Had the Palestinians managed to kill 5,000 Israelis in retaliation for their illegal blockade, who can honestly say that the Israelis wouldn’t have lifted the blockade ?

Like all bullies and cowards (incl the world’s greatest bully) the Israelis only pick up the small and the weak, they don’t like to get hurt themselves. The 2006 incursion into Lebanon was deemed as a huge failure by the Israeli public not only because Hezbollah was not smashed, but because the Israeli causalities were considered to be unacceptably high. 120 Israelis died in that conflict.

The Palestinians are being slaughtered in Gaza today not because they have been killing Israelis, but precisely because they haven’t been killing Israelis.

Is the genocide in Sudan still going?

500,000 dead and I don’t remember anyone getting all excited about it.

Dead africans just aren’t as cool as shmegahs and kalashnikovs. Maybe they need better PR?

He has a point…..

5thElefant – Member

Is the genocide in Sudan still going?

500,000 dead and I don’t remember anyone getting all excited about it.

Dead africans just aren’t as cool as shmegahs and kalashnikovs. Maybe they need better PR?

And I don’t remember you posting any threads about it.

But I am aware of you repeatedly posting on this thread.

Why’s that ❓

After all, according to you :

5thElefant – Member

Does it really matter?

Foreigners murder each other all the time. Something to do with the heat.

**** me this is unreal!!!

Right you lot, if you really truly care **** off and set up the International Brigade of Suicide Mountain bikers, have affairs with fit Arab birds and then go off and herocially and pointlessly blow yourselves up somewhere without doing any damage to anyone else, or if you are that way persuaded get your knob sorted out with a BIC razor, and have an affair with some fit Jewess and then go off and pointlessy get yourself blown up by some foreign nutter on a mission to resolve the world problems by pointlessly blowing themselves up…..

In the meantime Tanky, great wind-up, but now verging on boring, Zokes, properly glad you’ve joined the ranks of the working classes, (not to be confused with the working class [singular], which you have yet to aspire to)…. I’m up for a C2C reunion on a Martini basis…. i.e anytime anyplace anywhere.

Thinking about a trip West with my lot sometime soon (like two to three months), or alternatively can come alone with soft southern bedwetter ways to sink you feckers with ale and bawdy tales, if you would prefer to handle just one of me between you!

Zokes, properly glad you’ve joined the ranks of the working classes, (not to be confused with the working class [singular], which you have yet to aspire to)

OI! I share a slate quarryman’s cottage with a solid fuel stove in the middle of a welsh village halfway up a mountain where it rains all the time – surely that’s aspiring to be working class 😉 (Obviously I share it with a person, not just the stove)

And I don’t remember you posting any threads about it.

I wasn’t implying I’m full of angst about it. I don’t remember a 200,000 post thread about dead Africans though, which would be proportionate.

But I am aware of you repeatedly posting on this thread.

Why’s that

Yep. It’s an interesting thread, full of passion from people who can’t possibly have any reason to be passionate about it. Well worth giving them a poke to see if they know why they care about this in particular. It’s certainly nothing to do with numbers of dead.

One thing, guys. If I were a Jew, and I’m not, I’d remember 5-or-so million of Jews dead in Poland during WW2. That means no matter how politically incorrect or how painful and immoral I’d be bombing the F out of anybody who even tries to attack. Grudges are bad but very powerful.