Are massive back country rides with big numbers of unknown riders sensible?

100 riders may well work like the mass trespasses of the past that got walkers access to the moors.

The Kinder trespass was walkers going past the Duke of Devonshire’s gamekeepers onto land designated as private–i.e. somewhere they weren’t then allowed to roam. One hundred riders traipsing around bridleways they already have every right to be on isn’t quite the same Sandwich. What exactly is this going to open up to us?

I agree snowslave was right to raise the matter for discussion, however when it comes to mitigating risk of being held liable:

Presumably by getting your leader’s and first aid qualifications, packing for every contingency, getting disclaimers done and above all getting insurance from CTC or whereever to cover thrid party claims etc etc.

I have a feeling that in taking these measures one is tacitly accepting further liability. I’m so squeamish I don’t think I could bear to take a first aid course and could certainly never be bothered collecting signatures. I do have 3rd party cover from the CTC, which can still be had for £12 pa for affiliated clubs.

There is a big difference to an organised ride where someone is a leader and a “I am riding here – anyone who wants to tag along meet here” type arrangement.

IMO there is absolutely no legal liability on the folk organising these rides so long as they don’t do anything really really stupid.

Do they have a duty of care? etc etc

There is a group of us who are meeting regularly now and we have done a few group rides. I would not be tempeted to issue a disclaimer beforehand, but I would let them know what they are in for. If it looks professional you may be treated as such, if it looks like a bunch of mates then thats the expectation you give and as such its the likely way you will be treated.

I used to be an expedition leader for a group of marine conservationists and learned that you have to be very up front and clear so everyone knows whats involved. Dont compromise the groups aim for the sake of one or two people. Get rid of the one or two who turn up with the wrong kit or wrong attitude and then the majority will be happy. Make sure you dont end up with riders dependent on others for anything, like spares, food, directions, tubes, etc. Then your in a whole world of pain and compromise.

But you will also find that a regular group develops its own culture thereby it becomes only attractive to those who would fit in. Sure, there may be a one off where some total newbie turns up, but they wont come again if they dont fit in.

I would suggest that if they look like they wont fit it, dont try to accommodate them – you will push them to something they are not comfortable with and at the same time spoil the whole groups dynamic culture.

If your organisiing a ride you can avoid most of the problems:
– Discuss the route and difficulty beforehand online
– Ensure you only talk to riders you know
– New riders come via invitation by existing members, this cuts out those who are not likely to fit in.
– Be very clear about kit, bike, skills, distance, attitude, etc
– Make sure those who plan stuff have experience and leadership ability
– If your unsure of the group then plan a series of loops so there are bail out options.
– Set the tone and style stright away otherwise you will lower your ride to the lowest common denominator. Lift the group not lower the group.

When you get to a group your happy with STOP. Dont keep on inviting more. Life is too short to allow some **** to spoil it.

🙄

fail to plan = plan to fail

If you pay for leadership then you can expect the reassurance of insurance, skill evaluation all backed up by foward planning, ie planned routes and details left with a non rider of route and start finish times.

Groups lead and backed up with guys with two way radios and fully charged mobiles and first aid knowledge.

Manageable group sizes too, everyones details, etc.

If you’re not paying it’s down to yourself to find out as much about the terrain, distance, etc as you can before hand.

I was going to continue, but CBA.

Mountain biking can be and for the most part IS an extreme and dangerous sport/hobby/life style, respect that, know your limits and ride within them.

If like me you choose to push the limits expect it to hurt sometimes and blame only yourself.

I would suggest that if they look like they wont fit it, dont try to accommodate them – you will push them to something they are not comfortable with and at the same time spoil the whole groups dynamic culture.

If your organisiing a ride you can avoid most of the problems:
– Discuss the route and difficulty beforehand online
– Ensure you only talk to riders you know
– New riders come via invitation by existing members, this cuts out those who are not likely to fit in.

This just sounds really snobbish and cliquey to me.

This just sounds really snobbish and cliquey to me

I don’t think that’s a fair comment in this particular case (disclaimer: I ride with Trimix every week). In practice, it means that

1. We use a mailing list to advertise and plan rides. Occasionally we’ve posted on here and new people have been added on or we’ve added friends and acquaintances. This means that everyone knows exactly what to expect and we avoid the kinds of problems that come up when someone arrives with very different expectations of the ride.

2. We organize different kinds of ride to accommodate different people–faster and smaller on Tuesday evening but larger social rides with partners, pubs and picnics on the weekend.

3. We can (hopefully) do stuff that keeps everyone happy–that lets people join in but doesn’t, like Trimix says, disrupt the really good regular riding we’ve got going.

Snobbish and cliquey? Not at all…

I would suggest that if they look like they wont fit it, dont try to accommodate them

Well that sounds a bit like ‘if they don’t have the correct riding clothes or are riding a Carrera then we won’t let them ride with us’.

I’m all for being very clear and upfront about the route/difficulty etc

Sure, there may be a one off where some total newbie turns up, but they wont come again if they dont fit in.

What if the total newbie finds it a bit difficult, but really enjoys the challenge and wants to come again? Tell them they don’t fit in and can’t come? I do appreciate what you are saying to an extent but it doesn’t exactly make it sound like a friendly, welcoming group.

As said by someone else, if you are that bothered about being really fast and not stopping on a route, then why ride in a big group?

What if the total newbie finds it a bit difficult, but really enjoys the challenge and wants to come again? Tell them they don’t fit in and can’t come? I do appreciate what you are saying to an extent but it doesn’t exactly make it sound like a friendly, welcoming group.

Of course not. In part you adapt the pace or intensity to take account of who’s there; in part you make it very clear what each ride’s going to be like–and be sure to have some proper variety in what you do.

And let’s be clear here–I said ‘faster’ rather than ‘fast’; we stop at the end of every section to chew the fat and let Trimix push his lungs back in. The quick guys that ride with us normally end up doing extra miles before or after to get their fix.

If it’s not friendly and welcoming then it’s difficult to explain why we had fourteen people out in the Chilterns the other Sunday.

I thought we all had a duty, when a stranger turns up on an expensive bike and full of talk about how great a rider he is, to take him down some tight technical stuff and tyre-buzz him so he goes just that leeeetle bit faster than he really wants to.

This just sounds really snobbish and cliquey to me.

to me too! I do my best to accommodate all comers, particularly on beginner rides and don’t demand anything beyond enthusiasm and good will. Trimix perhaps inadvertently managed to sound elitist 🙁

As far as I’m concerned, and I’m fairly sure the law would agree, if you don’t pay for a “leader” to take you around and it is simply a meeting of people with similar interests, each takes individual responsibility and accepts their destiny from that choice. Maybe if <18s are going you might need to be sure that their parents are happy with the arrangement, but the rest are grown adults capable of making their own decisions and dealing with the outcome. We don’t all blame the guy who invited us to the pub when we end up breaking a leg on the way home after 10 pints, by the very action of MTBing you’re accepting the risks, only you now have an even bigger backup of experience and safety than if you’d done it alone or with a couple of mates. I’ve been on more than one ride with relatively unknown people where I’d felt like keeling over half way round due to the distances and fitness involved. I prepared for that, packed a map and found my own way home.

I don’t know, the fact that we even have to consider such things cheeses me off.

I don’t know, the fact that we even have to consider such things cheeses me off.

I don’t think we really do though, it’s just paranoia in the main I think.

I do think ‘no win no fee’ has a lot to answer for though.

grumm – at the risk of turning this into a cliquey thread and being the third person in this particular group to contribute – I’m not sure that I’d read ‘fit in’ in the way that you are. It’s not to do with the correct riding clothes (whatever they would be?) or the type of bike you ride, it’s about being upfront about the route/difficulty etc, and each person knowing their own ability and fitness. Plus we do different types of routes, so people can choose what they ride, there’s always bailout options etc.

I wouldn’t use Trimix’s terminolgy of ‘members’ either – it makes it sound more formal than it is. Like Mattie_h says, it’s a loose email mailing list – some people ride occassionally, other folks most weeks.

I’m not a total newbie, and sometimes i find it a bit difficult and a challenge, but still want to go out again. So far Trimix and Mattie_h haven’t told me not to come back.
Oh, and I’m definitely not bothered about being really fast and not stopping on a route – this group works fine for me on that score!

I can’t be arsed reading through all this, but I can imagine all the legal crap and nanny state-type bollards being spouted all too well. But in the end it’s simple, take responsibility for yourself. If you think a ride’s too hard for you, ask properly or simply don’t do it. As for the Howgills being a deadly backcountry wilderness. Erm…

The simple solution is to not meet random people from the internet in the woods.

I have a feeling that in taking these measures one is tacitly accepting further liability.

I’d urge everyone who rides to do a basic first aid course. There’s a lot of misunderstanding of what “first aid” actually is. It’s not all about splinting people’s legs or giving them tracheotomies with biros, more assessing the situation and not making anyone’s injuries worse than they are.

If you are too squeamish to do a first aid course then you should should probably lock yourself away from society, the worst thing you’ll see all day is some cheesy plastic stick-on wounds. Plus you might get paired up with a lady for the CPR bit.

Stuff like head counts to make sure riders haven’t been left behind is common sense too, it’s far more likely to prevent a bad experience for someone than it is to assist them in suing you.

I’ve just remembered that I once rode in the Howgills on my own, in winter – and I got slightly lost. Can someone please give me the details of who I should be suing?

We don’t really have ‘back country’ in England anyway – Scotland you could say that about some areas maybe.

I don’t know what the problem is.

I went for a ride in the lakes on Sunday (Howgills area) and would you believe it 33 other mountainbikers also turned up with a view to ride the same route.

what are the odds on that eh?

then you should should probably lock yourself away from society

yeah, they’d probably all be happier with that too :o)

Stuff like head counts to make sure riders haven’t been left behind is common sense too

in my extensive experience, once you get past 15 head counts are almost impossible. People won’t hold still. I often find there were one or 2 more riders then I ever counted during the ride 🙂

If you want a group ride to work then you need a certain level of ruthlessness to weed out the bits that will cause it to go wrong.

Also you need to be flexible – dont stick to a plan if the plan turns out to be crap. Life is dynamic, so make your plan adaptable. It also helps if your riding mates are adaptable.

Dont expect everyone to like the same ride as you. Humour helps.

Best way is to just plan when the pub stop will be and leave it at that. As snowslave found out on Saturday, this method is a proven winner 😉

That was indeed a genius plan Dave Routemeister, providing an extra focus to a utterly top day out, and much appreciated! 😉

Just to clarify – I am NOT anticipating 100 riders turning up for the Chilterns ride 😯

I am NOT anticipating 100 riders turning up for the Chilterns ride

it would serve you right after all your gobby talk innit ??

sfb – gobby talk? Moi? Nah, you’re getting me mixed up with a bloke 😀

Can’t believe I’ve only just seen this- the mind boggles- as for people complaining about the high numbers, WTF has it got to do with you? I’ve been on the last few rides and fair to say it’s some of the most enjoyable time I’ve ever spent on a bike. Who would ever think about suing someone else for falling off your own bike……….dear lord, who even thinks like that!?

gobby talk? Moi?

perish the thought :o)

I’ve run loads of group rides with people I didn’t know. I’ve had one ride where I had to go back to the cars with someone, as they couldn’t get up the hill from the car park (the little slope at Penmachno), and clearly weren’t able to even walk the route, let alone ride anything. Other than that though, people have got tired sometimes, and a few people got injured, but in any incident, people have just got together and made sure everyone is okay.

I wouldn’t bother with disclaimers or anything like that, or getting leadership awards. I think if was some kind of qualified group leader, and made a point of that, I’d surely be under a higher duty of care to people I was leading – I’m sure I was told that with respect to my long since lapsed lifeguarding/water rescue qualifications.

I’ve never seen a case like this get as far as a court though, the only case I’ve heard of of this nature, where a person is doing a dangerous activity and gets hurt (actually against a juggling club, about a unicycle related injury) are because they were hoping for a payout from the insurance (and once it got to court, they lost). I suspect if you don’t have hefty insurance, you’d be somewhat less likely to get sued?

Joe

this was fun

roll up, roll up

Good turn out Pook.