Are massive back country rides with big numbers of unknown riders sensible?

You catch on pretty quick. 🙂

So let’s imagine this scenario. 15 y.o girl arrives to ride. Appears to be 18 y.o or older. When (if?) asked says she has all the correct gear. Falls off part way around, gets hurt. None of the riders have been CRB checked. Daddy acuses one of the riders of getting in her way and causing the accident, and accuses another of behaving in an innappropriate way towards his precious darling- who had in fact been coming on a bit strong to her ‘rescuer’ anyway.

There would be so many witnesses present that any accusations of impropriety would be thrown out- but who wants or needs this level of stress.

What the ‘organiser’ of the ride needs to do is to state a set of ground rules in the original post.

I accept that Mountain Biking carries with it some degree of risk; both to person, property and emotional trauma of friends and family spectating. Knowing of the risk I still wish to register and participate in said group ride and so expressly agree to assume the risk of personal injury, damage or trauma to friends and family while I paticipate in this activity.

I release, waive and hold harmless …………………., forum name of: …………………. (herin reffered to as ………..), its officers and / or its employees from all claims, losses damages or expenses including legal costs that may be incurred during or inconjunction with my participation in the Mountain bike ride.
I also indemnify ……………., its officers and / or its employees against all claims, losses damages or expenses including legal costs that any of my guests or any one or more of my executors, administrators, heirs, next of kin, successors or assignees may have or assert against …………….. as a result of my participation in the mountain bike ride.
If I am not a resident of the UK I declare that I will not endeavour to avoid clauses 2 & 3 of this document by commencing legal action in another country.
I declare and confirm that I am physically fit and have no condition or injury that could be affected by this activity.
I declare and confirm that I have advised ……………. of any conditions or injury as listed on the ………….. medical conditions list
I hereby consent to receive medical treatment which may be deemed neccessary by ………… in the case of injury, accident or illness during the course of undertaking mountain biking and also agree to indemnify ………….. in respect of such medical treatment.
I agree that any films, sound or other recording of my mountain bike ride will not be used in any promotion or advertising without the prior consent of …………………. and further agree that ……………. may itself use such recordings as it deems fit without my prior consent.

Do you really want to have to sign something like this before each ride, wouldn’t you then have to collect money, and pay for insurance etc…

In future perhaps it should be a following rather then a group ride, I’m starting from here and riding to here, if you chose to follow me that’s your own ride?

{…}

Just to clarify, fully agree suing is not on, I’d personally prefer proper countryside to trail centres almost any day, yes of course it’s down to personal responsibility, and yes signing long silly forms is ultimately futile as well as annoying. I’m not endorsing any of that.

What triggered my observation is the big numbers on these rides, and I was thinking this is very different to what we all normally do, when yes there can be newbies, and even bigish numbers, but most riders in the group usually know each other etc., and that makes a massive difference.

Is there some sort of tipping point at which a general invite ride gets too big?

For my taste, a ride with more than about5 people on it is too big and is doomed to turn into a giant faff-and-puncture-a-thon. But tastes seem to vary. 🙂

so don’t arrange a ride – you arrange a group meeting at a car park, one later the top of a hill somewhere and one later somewhere else. Suggest that people can make their own way between points according to their abilities and equipment?

paedo hysteria lightning rod?

LOL

So let’s imagine this scenario. 15 y.o girl arrives to ride. Appears to be 18 y.o or older. When (if?) asked says she has all the correct gear. Falls off part way around, gets hurt. None of the riders have been CRB checked. Daddy acuses one of the riders of getting in her way and causing the accident, and accuses another of behaving in an innappropriate way towards his precious darling- who had in fact been coming on a bit strong to her ‘rescuer’ anyway.

Think you’ve spent a bit too much time imagining this scenario. 😛

Maybe it’s because I ride alone so often, but I’d never turn up on a ride and expect anyone else to be responsible except me. Not unless I was paying for a guided ride.

I always bring appropriate food and tools to provide for myself, and to be honest it’s just a pain in the arse when others turn up without being properly prepared themselves. I’d leave some tools at home if I knew beforehand that someone else would be carrying the same.

Even on a guided ride, you’re in the saddle and you’re in charge. If you go plunging off a cliff on the side or a trail it’s nobody’s fault but your own for not accepting your limits and walking.

When I saw this thread initially I though it was about a massive BLACK COUNTRY ride, however I’ve actually realised its about liability and distrust.

Backcountry ? LOL.

I’ve never met anybody from the Black Country who wasn’t a liability and who I didn’t distrust.

what a bunch of handwringing, unneccessary toss.

Indeed. A 15 year old girl into backcountry riding brings a whole raft of potential criminality that I suspect wasn’t within the remit of the original question 🙂

Wot jambo said

doomed to turn into a giant faff-and-puncture-a-thon

well, this time it didn’t, and no doom ensued. I wouldn’t endorse such high numbers in bad conditions, as then waiting around could be uncomfortable or even dangerous, but in lovely weather it wasn’t a problem (with the odd antsy exception). If you like heads-down uninterrupted riding then avoid this kind of event!

For my taste, a ride with more than about5 people on it is too big and is doomed to turn into a giant faff-and-puncture-a-thon.

Totally agree.

Also the Howgills are hardly “back country”

Nowhere that lacks grizzly bears can really be back country. If you aren’t risking being mauled by savage beasts then it’s really just XC/epic-lite. 😉

Fair comment Big Dummy!

snowslave, i was on the big ride yesterday.
i made a point of making a headcount at the start of the ride.
i also tend to ride at the back because i am slow, but also sensible, i can keep a eye on the group, see who is struggling and then at stop points (which are many) relay to the group who is at the back and for what reason.

I can hold back no longer. Probably get me banned, but so what. The op’s post is probably aimed at me anyway as I organised the Rivi ride and contributed to the Howgills ride.

Not much gets my back up but this is **** ridiculous. Namby **** pamby attitude to health and **** safety, pandering to this **** ridiculous cnting litigious society that we **** live in. What a **** **** stupid **** of a **** post.

Who knows the skills/fitness of the riders coming? Or whether the ride leader has selected a safe/sensible route with bail outs that matches the skills of the riders? Or whether a slow rider might get lost or injured and not be missed by the others? And who’s got appropriate first aid skills, or leadership qualifications per se? Who’s carrying insurance? What if some unfit dood turns up on a supermarket bike? what if someone is wearing lycra?

Your not paying to come on the ride, no one is forcing you. I did the Rivi ride as a few friends suggested they would like to be shown around. I posted on here as its my backyard and I love to show it off to people. I aint got any leadership qualifications other than common sense. If someone had turned up on a “Argos Stealth Rapist”, I would have told them at the start. The route was posted together with a link to the map (as have the other rides). People need to take some **** responsibility for your own actions.

Last month was Rivington, currently the centre of controversy, with land owners under pressure to close the area to mountain bikes. Appreciate we have a right to be there at the moment, but is hitting it with such big numbers on a Sunday sensible?

I take it your refering to UU’s threat to remove access from the Gardens. That is due purely to the actions of guys cutting DH lines in the Gardens. I purposely made the route to avoid as much as possible the hotspots of Rivi. UU would be better advised to spend some time keeping the MX and 4×4 crowd from undertaking the kind of vandalism to the landscape that will take decades to repair.

This month, the Howgills. There’s a generally enthusiastic friendly vibe on the thread which is great, but it might give the impression this is a nice ride in the country.

Your right, there was a friendly vibe on the thread, thats because we are friends who wanted to have a nice social ride and meet other like minded riders for a good day out. If you would have come on the ride you would have also seen that there was (presumably, as I couldnt make it) a very friendly atomsphere there also. It was a nice ride in the country. It wasnt climbing mount **** everest.

Ermmm, you’d struggle to find a more remote area of England. Proper backcountry territory, few bail outs, if rider or bike breaks, they’re potentially in very serious trouble, and at that point their problem becomes a shared problem, whether the other riders like it or not

Thats the whole idea. get away from it all… have a big country ride… live a **** little. Jesus **** christ, I spent my formative years fell walking all over the country. God forbid I pass on this to my family, they might get hurt. Perhaps we should put a big **** fence around the Howgills as stop ANY riders going there for fear of them hurting themselves and not being able to get out ???

If you’re the injured person – how do you know the other riders are going to make the right decisions to get you sorted out? If you’re completely in control and carrying all the right kit, bikes in good nick etc, how do you know some nutter is not going to turn up and ride beyond their capabilities, injure themselves and leave you with a liability to fix in the middle of nowhere?

I dont even know where to start this mountain of bullshit. your probably better off in a big group in this instance. Perhaps you should spend your time trying to disuade solo riders, lest they get into difficulties.

If I were a lawyer employed to get some dosh for someone injured badly as a result of one of these rides, there’s some interesting liability issues here presumably….

What, like concerned friends looking out for one another ? Bollocks like this is the whole reason why this country is completely going to the dogs.

Anyway thats me. I’m sorry about the swearing but it get right on my tits this attitude.

Oh and heres and extract from the OP’s linking website :-

We’re not a formal mountain bike club with insurance etc, and riders ride at their own risk obviously. This forum simply puts like minded mountain bikers in touch to nail rides and so on.

Food for thought.

Its attitudes like this that make me wonder if its worth organising group rides. But then I just think about all the laughs, views, fun, adrenaline and most of all, new mates, that makes me remember why. And no amount of utter worthless shite will make me change.

See you when my Ban runs out.

whooop whoop cheering go Lowey GO

lowey lowey lowey lowey lowey lowey 😆

I really don’t know what to think of this thread there’s some utter shite floating around.

Me and Terrahawk organised a mass ride yesterday. We were the only ones who showed up!

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-fancy-a-spin-this-afternoon

I think if you read about it on here and you know roughly where you are going then you know what you are letting yourself in for.

However, as part of the Hit the North promotional stuff we organised a series of preview rides that were attended by upwards of 30 people, some of whome had the shock of their lives because they thought they were going for a pootle in the park.

The point that i’m cack handedly making is that you should have an idea of what to expect before you show up, and most people that i’ve met off here do.

Lowey – I think you grabbed the wrong end of the stick. The OP was merely pointing out what anyone with a brain, who has been involved in organising rides, has probably already thought – playing devil’s advocate if you like. To go off on a rant at him is a bit off….
He’s right to bring it up – I personally wouldn’t attempt to hold somebody responsible for my own failings on a ride (not enough time in the day!) – but I have no doubt that there are others who would – and regardless of what you or I think of those people – they exist! Like that nutter who took his riding mates to court as they allegedly knocked him off on a training ride… I don’t know the outcome but it’s certainly hassle we could all do without.

Also… Lowey keep up the good work!

Sorry lowey – no personal pop intended. It’s a general point, and seeing these rides grow in size made me think exactly of the debate we’d had, only the size of these rides is bigger in numbers and there’s more of an unknown quantity about riders, so it’s more difficult to control.

So, the point I was making is that given the above, is it not better to de-risk by doing trail centres which are maybe better suited to handle different standards of rider.

And yes, I agree people can equally be injured anywhere etc….

I’m glad you got that off your chest Dave, but I wasn’t even annoyed, just amused. I’ll be damned if I’ll let delusions of litigation interfere with organising and leading as many rides as I can, with friends or strangers, old (ie me) & young, fat & thin, male & female. It’s what I do :o)

Nice one Lowey old son. Here Here!!

Snowslave, I have never heard so much utter tripe in all my riding days.

T

The more you organise the more you are taking responsibility for what happens surely? If someone asked me to sign a disclaimer I would, and would probably think it a bit odd (and maybe wonder what was coming) but a disclaimer cannot excuse negligence anyway. Again, the more you organise the more responsibility you are accepting (IMHO).
Stick with “we are going for a ride from x, going around y, its a bit tricky but we will be arsing around taking pics and laughing at each other as well, come along if you fancy it” and as far as I am concerned that is a fair invite with no promises to be broken.
Oh, I am not a lawyer, can you tell?

Well, I’ll agree inasmuch as disclaimers are pointless. We all bear a degree of responsibility to each other.

Don’t know about anybody else but I don’t ride in the Atacama desert 🙄

It’s just tosh your post. I have organised loads of rides and am always completely upfront about the distance to be ridden, the type of terrain, being self-sufficient with food/drink, waterproofs. As long as you make it completely clear about what to expect.

And, FWIW, I have done loads of riding on my own – Wales, Cheviots, North York Moors, Dartmoor etc. as well as in the South. Personal responsibility together with a well-maintained bike.

In January, we had nearly 50 folk turn up at Swinley Forest for a ride and it was minus 7 degrees. Was I worried as organisor I would get sued for frostbite, hypothermia, damaged limbs – was I heck.

I once guided a 100 person ride 7miles under the sea on the seabed with diptheria and hypothermia and no one died but my bike got a bit rusty.

Forgot to mention, I normally give a little pep-talk that it’s a PR exercise and we have to be nice and smiley to everyone. DO NOT give any other trail users the opportunity to have a pop at us.

This will be particuarly relevant when I lead 100 STW’ers around the Chilterns on 21st June – this is the one area where I have found we are not popular 🙄

>I once guided a 100 person ride 7miles under the sea on the seabed with diptheria and hypothermia and no one died but my bike got a bit rusty.

Yes, but I caught a cold as a result of said underwater epic and my mum will be pursuing legal action against yo ass.

Tracker – that was also one of the debates we had on the issue, and a lawyer rider made a similar point to us. I suspect you’re right.

This debate did our collective heads in, cos legal people who had better knowledge took the line that liability was there, and it wouldn’t necessarily be riders suing, it might be their union, partner, insurer, etc. I suppose they would say that, that’s what they do when you ask their opinion. Personally we all felt this stinks, but nevertheless. We toyed with disclaimers – see above. But largely we ignored the issue, we just wanted to ride our bikes.

Then we had a couple of issues with newbies joining that were on the rash side of wreckless. Separately, someone self employed got injured and couldn’t work. All of a sudden this silly legal stuff started to look more real.

We’d never anticipated people not understanding the principle Harry The Spider has stated, I mean that’s self evident right? We stated the hardness of rides (well as much as possible), distance, amount of climbing and so on, and assumed anyone in possession of a mtb with access to the internet and enough guile to find our web forum would never misunderstand what this game is all about. But by pure fluke, some of us met 2 newbies in the pub before they’d ever ridden with us, and they asked what the rides were all about, and genuinely hadn’t a clue. Let’s say they were glad to find out.

We went so far as dissuading newbies for a time, daft as it now seems. We hated where this was taking us. Elitism stinks.

Ultimately we held the sfb “we’ll never get anywhere if we listen to lawyers” line, and we try to apply a “what would a reasonable person do here” guiding principle. We started running easier shorter but still technical rides as well as big rides each month. Acceptable to push, pub stops included etc., good way to spot people before they go on bigger rides and get themselves in trouble. If they think it easy, ride the bigger ride. If that’s too easy, we’re too soft. If we have a serious incident, we tend to debate what we’d do differently. We restrict numbers.

I’m not in any way saying this is failsafe, or we’re right with what we’ve learned and applied – we just like riding our bikes. But this forum is for a laugh, sharing the odd experience etc, and this is our experience. Possibly see a similar thing unfolding here, only it’s on a bigger more high profile scale. Perhaps it’s a debate that is needed to be confronted and understood if the intention is to hold rides for 30+ riders who are unknown to each other in more remote areas?

Certainly no pop at individuals whatsoever – lowey, to repeat, truly sorry if you see it that way.

On the last sunday of this month a few like minded individuals will be meeting up in malham. We will be riding a 25 mile course, the terrain will be about a 5.0 on the radness scale. If you want to tag along you can but don’t expect us to talk to you, look at you, assist you with mechanicals or pick you up if you fall off and break yourself. Oh yeah and don’t expect us not to molest you. So bring your own first aid kit, survival gear, 3lbs of kendal mint cake, a whole spare bike, a good book (cos we won’t be chatting at the top of the hill) and rape alarm. Of course 1 or 2 individuals may offer conversation, friendly assistance and may not molest you but that is entirly their own doing and I and anyone else who knows the meeting time, place and route cannot be held responsible for that individuals rash acts.
🙂

Whether we like it or not, snowslave has a point. There is a risk of being held responsible for a group ride gone wrong if you look like you’ve organised it. Whether there should be, whether our sport dies a little every time someone thinks about it etc etc is not really the issue.

Once you accept that the risk is there you can do three things:

1 – you can ignore it. The risk of you actually being taken to the cleaners if you have no assets or insurance is pretty small, but as has been pointed out, if someone tries it on it could spoil your life.

2 – desist from organising rides. Thhis is, realisitcally, disproportionnate to the risks involved, but is the least hassle/lowest risk option.

3 – mitigate the risk. Presumably by getting your leader’s and first aid qualifications, packing for every contingency, getting disclaimers done and above all getting insurance from CTC or whereever to cover thrid party claims etc etc.

If the ride is definitely going to happen, whether you go for option 1 or option 3 depends on your assessment of the risk landing on you. We asked yesterday whether anyone could flag up a concrete example of this happening, or point us to something other than a flakey argument based on general principles of the tort of negligence. No-one has so far, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t out there. Personally, I’d go with ignoring the risk, being sensible and trusting to the common sense and decncy of others. But there is an element of risk there.

🙂

One hundred people on a ride in the Chilterns? Isn’t that just a bit too many given all the hassle you suggest we get from walkers there??