Are 26ers a dying breed?

29er is aimed at the newbie or the niche-type (AttentionSeekingWhore)

Been riding 12 years so I’m not a newbie, that makes me a …

We should settle this with a race. 26er riders of the forum versus 29er riders of the forum. Results will settle the argument once and for all. Any takers?

Gravity enduro style race?

What helped me really understand the pros and cons of different wheel sizes was riding my BMX to work over the same (most offroad) route as my 26″ hardtail, and playing on the same jumps etc with it. I can now totally see why some riders would like bigger wheels and why some would like smaller wheels – it’s just a question of choosing the balance of compromises that suits your preferences. And those preferences aren’t all quantitative differences, just as two riders of similar ability, riding similar trails, may ride quite different bikes that they’re both very happy with.

Personally I like relatively slack, relatively long-forked hardtails with big tyres (easily 27″) and I feel mine has tanklike abilities at rolling over stuff and rarely short of grip uphill or speed on the flat (subject to my legs!) so the last thing I want is something that rolls better at the expense of acceleration in all directions. If 26ers die out I’ll be amazed but if they do I’m sure whatever replaces them will be great. If it isn’t then someone will spot a business opportunity and relaunch the amazing new revolutionary 26er! 😉

Uphill down dale, xc, enduro, gravity enduro, dh. Agreeing on a format will be the issue 😉
A race to the cafe might be most fitting.

Why is it always about Skillz and speed …why can I not just mince around on my 29er like I did on my 26er

I think I’m reasonably quicker on a 29er than I was on a 26er. But I ride with people who are still quicker on a 26er than I am on my 29er, and they always were when we were all on 26ers too.

I don’t see what that shows except some people are quicker than others, and wheel size is not a magic bullet. But we already know that. One still has to pedal the damn things!

Maybe we could just do some research into what members ride and what niche they aspire to.

I’ll start. I ride a 26er and I’m a lonewolf.

Next!

26 is not dead and will take a lot of killing. We still have more tyres more wheels and more frames. 29 is still to new to be judged as a stayer especially with 650 on its heels. Personal opinion it will be 26 and one other size for xc racers and people who want to be different and ride smooth trails or roads.

The industry have already found the limitations of 29″ and it’ll remain relegated to hardtails and short travel trail bikes. Not exactly the silver bullet they were hoping for.

Now the industry have realised that if they want to offer long travel bikes they need to go back to a smaller wheel size – which is why they’re now pushing 650b, claiming all the benefits of both wheel sizes (more marketing BS).

Not all current 26″ frames have the clearances/geometry to simply stick a set of 650b wheels in – so the industry will still be able to sell another lot of complete bikes and components.

so the industry will still be able to sell another lot of complete bikes and components.

Do wheel sizes encourage many more sales than this year’s fork preference compatibility, head tubes, slacker angles, different suspension etc?

No-one in the industry I know is daft enough to think that 29″ is a solution for all, I think rigid to shorter travel FS is where it belongs.
Like we’ve accepted that (eg) 140mm travel or more can work for XC, we’re accepting that 26″ wheels aren’t the optimum performer for many riders, 29ers started that though process and 650B is gaining popularity because of it. No-one’s saying “26 is sh1t”, more the case that enough people are voting from experience, riding what they prefer of the options presented. Bikes have always evolved and always had obselescence included.

What I am more concerned about is the vastness of options for wheels, travel, type = many buyers confused, holding back from buying, waiting for 650B FS, etc. That’s not good for the industry so anyone saying ‘it’s all marketing bs /sales driven’ – the market confusion is the known flip-side to all this, it’s not win-win for bike brands and that is always a factor with new categories, standards etc. Get on the wrong one and lose a year’s sales growth, etc. The windsurfing industry made this kind of mistake years back with everyone thinking they needed 5 different sails and 2 or more boards, sales suffered there too.

Thinking about what makes me buy a new bike, it things that give obvious improvements, like the introduction of suspension or disc brakes. Neither 29 inch nor 650b wheels do that. Most people looked swamped by a 29er and they steer like barges – and so are actually worse not better. I have tried a few 29ers and the things that I liked about them were all to do with them being new bikes and nothing to do with wheelsize. Seems like the industry is flailing around looking for the next best thing and sales advantage but is actually putting everything at risk by confusing the market and alienating it’s customers. So I will wait to see what happens before parting with cash

The main mass producing manufacturers will decide this for us. They can’t and won’t stand for three wheel sizes, it’s too costly to develop and produce frames and bikes across that whole spectrum, with Specialized already making commitments to 29ers and Schwalbe now ceasing to make RR’s in 26inch, only in 650b and 29er. It will settle on either 26er and 29er or 650b and 29er. The battle seems to be moving to one between 26 inch and 650b rather than 26inch and 29inch. However there are plenty of small independent manufacturers that will support the ousted wheel size for plenty of time to come. I’m past caring now. I don’t think it is a case of one of the option wheel size being wrong for you, unless you’re a keen racer chasing seconds. Buying the wrong bike for you will have a bigger impact than buying the ‘wrong’ wheel size. Just ride what you’ve got, and by the time it breaks the wheel size wars will be over.

Schwalbe now ceasing to make RR’s in 26inch

I expect they’ll keep the tooling though so can start up again at any time – just a short-term demand thing.

By RR – do you mean Ralph or Rons?

Seems like the
industry is flailing around looking for the
next best thing and sales advantage but is
actually putting everything at risk by
confusing the market and alienating it’s
customers.

I have recently bought a new bike recently, a 29er…though with 23mm tyres and drop bars…

I shall not buying any new mountain bike kit for a while until the dust settles on this issue.

I am a short arse at 5’6″ and at the moment I’ve got a light weight racy HT and a heavier long travel HT. I need to sell one to find room in the garage. So I will be selling the racy HT. If I were to consider a 29er HT it would be just for xc riding which would limit my riding (echoing Cy’s quote regarding the Solaris being more suited to long steady rides for short people a couple of pages back on this thread).

Hopefully we shall all have a drier summer this year and I will be dodging trees on wooded singletrack on my 26er. With the option of putting on a lightweight wheelset for longer distance events.

I will not be making any major MTB purchases for a while because I want one bike that can do multiple jobs and at present it is not clear if this is possible with a 29er for a short arse.

I’d agree that the industry is unlikely to support three standards long term, but I still think that there is a chance that the 29ers will die and we’ll be left with 26 and 650B.

Imagine that you are a manufacturer wanting to push 650B as the “next big thing” (either because you missed the 29er boat or because your 29er sales have fallen off). Who are you going to target in your marketing campaign, the 26 or 29er crowd? The 29er riders are by definition early-adopters. People who change bikes frequently and are always looking for something new. The 26″ riders are, by contrast, reluctant to change. I reckon that you’ll get more sales by pitching to the 29er riders (“all the advantages of the bigger wheel, but more fun”) than the curmudgeonly old 26″ riders.

Well it’s a possibility.

I can’t see 29er dying off – it’s actually a sensible size for taller riders. Ultimately I think it’ll come down to between 26″ and 27.5″, and which one survives…

I can’t see 29er dying off – it’s actually a
sensible size for taller riders

Why?

Why is it always about Skillz and speed …why can I not just mince around on my 29er like I did on my 26er

Typically the more skilled the rider, the smaller the wheel size. Larger wheels make bike skills more difficult (manualling, jumping, pumping etc)

Most people who buy 29’ers are not bothered by this as they gravitate towards climbing and covering ground rather than skill.

Those riders who are skilled on a bike are not interested in anything that makes the bits they gravitate to, harder.

Hence the polar opinions from different riders.

If you spend some time really thinking about it, it’s pretty obvious that by scaling a frame to fit riders from 5’2″ to 6’6″ without changing the size of the wheels, you’re going to end up with very compromised geometry. We make a bike change direction (in 3D) by moving our centre of mass relative to the bike’s centres of balance. The further our centre of mass is from them, the less we have to move it. The greater our centre of mass, the less we have to move it.

Therefore a very short and light rider on a big wheeled, long-travel, slack angled, long wheelbase bike will need to move a HUGE amount to make that bike to what its rider wants – ie the bike is too stable and too difficult to manoeuvre. Conversely, a very tall and heavy rider on a small wheeled, short travel, steep angled, short wheelbase bike will have to move tiny amounts to make that bike do what its rider wants – ie the bike is not stable enough and too difficult to keep balanced and controlled in the gnarr as external forces cause the rider to involuntarily move, thus destabilising the bike.

If a wide range of head angles, wheelbase and suspension travel are valid for MTBs then so too should be wheel sizes. Bigger wheels make sense for most taller riders and for less tall riders that favour stability over manoeuvrability.

I ride with quite a few different riders on everything from 160mm FS to rigids on my local trails. Everyone has trails that they’re best at and one ~5’8″ rider on a rigid 29er is quickest on the tightest twistiest trails – not because it’s a 29er but because of the whole bike’s geometry (it’s a Jones) and its rider. On rougher faster trails my smaller wheels but long forks and slacker angles prove faster. It’s complicated!

Hehe that’s me 😀 haven’t seen you about for a few weeks, Alex.

Double post.

While it’s not the whole story there is something in this “skills” argument. As a long time roadie and recent convert to mountain biking I have no problem covering the miles on rough trails, but my skills are rubbish (skills course is booked, before you start). By skills I basically mean anything that involves lifting one or both wheels off the ground. Even with a 26″ bike that is on the small side for me I can only lift the front wheel a few inches for a few seconds, so I’d be reluctant to get any bike that would make that even harder. If and when I ever get to the point where I can move the front wheel around at will and take jumps/drops in my stride then I may be more interested in the ability of a larger wheel to roll over small obstacles more easily.

Hehe that’s me haven’t seen you about for a few weeks, Alex.

We seem to be out of synchrony Ash – I thought maybe your big wheels didn’t work in the mud or that your bare Ti frame might rust in the wet! 😉 Are you out this Tuesday? I’m going to do some DH stuff tomorrow, the steeper and less ridden trails are in much better condition than the Stanmer Somme, if you fancy some plummeting and pushing back up?

A well designed 29er is a sensible option for taller riders in exactly the same way a 24″ kids bike is for a shorter rider

…but I’ve yet to see a short arse above the age of 23 with the confidence to admit this fact! and those in the bicycle industry know where their income comes from 😉

Im 5 foot 7 possibly just under, with a 29 inch inside leg, trouser wise, 29ers are a no no for me as if i need to ditch the bike and step of the back i get a tingling sensation on my nuts.

Different wheel sizes benefits everyone.

The only people that care are trolls.

Skilled people will be able to manual, wheelie and jump 29ers as well and easily as 26ers. Wheel size is irrelevant to rider height. You are not seated any higher off the ground on a 29er than a 26er. My bike has the same BB height and wheelbase as the 26er version of the same model, so the rider is seated exactly the same. Kids bikes do correlate wheel size to kid height as there is such a huge difference in height from a 12 month old to an 8,9 or 10 yr old you physically can’t fit larger wheels under a small child. The comparison to the 26 vs 29 adult bike is not the same. The difference in top tube length between a small adult frame and a large one is usually very small, a cm and a half or so.

Already Many of the big brands don’t offer their more targeted XC bikes in 26 inch wheel sizes, only in 29er, so 29ers are not dying off and are in the ascendance. Similarly brands like Scott and Norco have already ditched 26 ers on their long travel 150/160mm AM bikes in favour of 650b. So in some areas with some big brands 26ers are already dead or in the final years of production. And these big brands are big sponsors in the sport, it doesn’t take a genius to see what wheel sizes will influence and shape the sport going forward.

Other sports have gone through even bigger transitions and ended up all the better for it. Skiing springs to mind. 10 yrs ago it was all about long parallel sided skis, now it’s about much shorter curved edged carver skis and the sport is much much better as a result.

Skilled people will be able to manual, wheelie and jump 29ers as well and easily as 26ers

I’m sure that skilled riders can do just fine, but it’s not true to say that it is just as easy on a 29er. While a 29er may have the same wheelbase as its 26″ cousin it will usually have longer chainstays. Longer chainstays and heavier wheels make it harder to lift the front wheel. Not impossible, but harder.

I’d also be cautious about making long term predictions based on the short term marketing decisions of a few manufacturers. A manufacturer may have 650B and 29ers in its lineup this year, but that doesn’t mean they wont switch to 26″ and 650B (or some other combination) if they think that will result in higher profits next year.

I’m a short arse and would look ridiculous on a 29er I think. Low standover 26″ mtb or a proper sized bmx for me until I can’t get either any more!

Other sports have gone through even bigger transitions and ended up all the better for it. Skiing springs to mind. 10 yrs ago it was all about long parallel sided skis, now it’s about much shorter curved edged carver skis and the sport is much much better as a result.

That doesn’t necessarily mean all change is good though. Why did we end up with VHS over Betamax?

Double post…

Skilled people will be able to manual, wheelie and jump 29ers as well and easily as 26ers. Wheel size is irrelevant to rider height. You are not seated any higher off the ground on a 29er than a 26er. My bike has the same BB height and wheelbase as the 26er version of the same model, so the rider is seated exactly the same. Kids bikes do correlate wheel size to kid height as there is such a huge difference in height from a 12 month old to an 8,9 or 10 yr old you physically can’t fit larger wheels under a small child. The comparison to the 26 vs 29 adult bike is not the same. The difference in top tube length between a small adult frame and a large one is usually very small, a cm and a half or so.

This sort of stupidity really doesn’t help anyone’s understanding. Correctly sized frames exhibit much larger differences in top tube length, which is only increasing as manufacturers realise that using longer stems to compensate for insufficient ETT on larger sizes is a bodge. More force is required to manual a 29er than a 26er with otherwise identical geometry because the 29″ wheels have greater rotational inertia and the axle height (which you pivot about when manualling) is higher which reduces your leverage (as its closer to your centre of mass).

Furthermore the packaging of the wheels becomes more difficult as you shrink the frame, which can’t be ignored if you want clearance for big tyres, mud and long-travel suspension.

Bigger wheels can be good but they are not a panacea and the shorter and lighter the rider, the sooner their balance of compromises becomes skewed against good manoeuvrability.

Go tell my friend Ray that 29ers are no good for smaller lighter people. If you can catch him.

Go tell my friend Ray that 29ers are no good for smaller lighter people. If you can catch him.

Please turn on your brain when reading! 29ers are great for smaller lighter people if they prefer that balance of compromises – being smaller increases the probability that you won’t like larger wheels but that’s all it is, just probability.

the sooner their balance of compromises becomes skewed against good manoeuvrability

He destroys twisty singletrack on it.

He destroys twisty singletrack on it.

Which is exactly what I said further up this page about futonrivercrossing and his 29er!

A small light rider with an active riding style will get on much better with a 29er than a rider of the same size and weight with a more passive riding style. I’m betting that Ray is strong for his size and/or has great timing and balance, which means that his 29er works better for him than 26ers.

The only reason some brands have dropped 26″ in favour of 650b in 2013 is due to wanting to be ahead of the sales curve. They don’t want to make the same mistake they did with 29ers and play catch up *if* the market takes to 650b.

I’m sure they haven’t dumped all of their 26″ CAD drawings in the bin. For someone like Norco it makes sense to offer 650b over 26″ for the coming season. They sell complete bikes, and at the moment 650b is thin on the ground in terms of ‘complete’ offerings – so if the market takes to 650b in 2013 then they’re one of the few players with a range to offer the consumer.

I think it’s interesting that (and potentially telling) that Spesh haven’t released a 650b model for 2013 – maybe they realise it’ll come down to between 26″ and 650b and think the former will win out. Which wouldn’t be any surprise considering the amount of after market products available.

Skilled people will be able to manual, wheelie and jump 29ers as well and easily as 26ers.

Put down the crack pipe.

Next you will be telling us that a skilled rider can manual, wheelie and jump a 26″ bike as easy as a bmx.

I don’t think you understand how wheel size effects geometry, and how this effects how a bike handles.