Anyone had their political views changed after the age of 25?

Binners. Where would you like me to start?

For a brief moment he was the most powerful person in British politics. Then he climbed into bed with Call Me Dave. After Dave had finished with him he didn’t even have the stones to ask Dave to finish him off.

I know Wikipedia isn’t perfect, but leaving that aside, here’s a list of past and present states that have elected socialist governments, something that many people profess they wold love to see here.

Perhaps you’d like to tell us which of these is a better place to live than Britain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

Er, no it isn’t. I don’t think “elected” enters into it for many of those listed. It is a list of countries which have declared themselves to be “Socialist States”. That’s quite different.

Fair point. Elected maybe wasn’t the best word to use for some of them. My essential point stands though.

I’m happy to admit that many left wing views are well intentioned, and are often driven by quit altruistic motives, however the harsh facts of life (or human nature) are that socialist governments almost always end up with lower standards of living than centre right (or centre left sometimes; Scandanavia is an interesting case).

I guess that depends on how you measure “standard of living”…

Rachel

That’s an interesting way of looking at the correlation. Of course it could just as well be that countries with lower standards of living are more likely to declare themselves to be socialist.

I guess that depends on how you measure “standard of living”…

It’s a subjective measurement I agree, but putting it another way, there’s not one socialist country I can think of where I think the average person would have a better life than they do here.

Britain isn’t perfect, but I can’t think of many more places I would like to live.

Indeed and you would also need to compare the country before socialism and after rather than compare it with the UK and control for many other factors.

As we are a G7 country of course most other countries are worse than us economically. Most would be even if we really screwed up the economy with say centre right policies related to liberal banking conditions. However it does not prove what you think as you are comparing chalk and cheese and reaching a non sequitur as a result.

however the harsh facts of life (or human nature) are that socialist governments almost always end up with lower standards of living than centre right

This claim is so weak you dont even seem certain of what it is you are saying so you fade from certainty to claim almost always ……its either true or false. you seem to think its sometimes true and sometimes false in which case, whatever the cause, its not the govts socialism or rigth winginess is it.
Your own argument negates your own argument which is some achievement.
I have heard folk argue greed is human nature but your claim is a new one on me
IMHO , as they pursue wealth above everything else its hardly surprising they achieve that, however many other costs are higher as rachael notes. On that narrow point you are probably correct but standard of living is not just about wealth

Basically you dont like soclialism

Of course it could just as well be that countries with lower standards of living are more likely to declare themselves to be socialist.

In some cases I suspect that is true, however take East and West Germany for example. Both started from the same base point, one capitalist and the other socialist. Which was the better place to live?

Again over simplification

take the north and South of Britain for example. Both started from the same base point, one capitalist and the other capitalist. They must be exactly the same in terms of SoL then as only system matters

FWIW i think you are saying SoL but you mean GDP

You may wish to read this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

RW/LW/socialist this/ socialist that…..so what?

These labels bear little resemblance to what is going on in reality. Some of the socialist governments in Europe are implementing more radical RW policies than the Right of centre parties and vice versa. We even had the SNP quoting extreme policies out of the Hayek notebook (in that case more because they were confused though)

Major parties have to deal with the unpleasant reality of the global deleveraging cycle. There are no easy answers to this and the adjustment phases can be very prolonged eg Japan and Europe now. This makes them unpopular as the populations hate going cold turkey.

So folk search for panaceas among the:

Extreme parties – UKIP
Fluffy utopians – Greens
Snake oil salesman – SNP (Sturgeon today!!!!!)

As those rather nice purple in yellow and sandles showed recently, the fluffy stuff spoon disappears when you actually have power and have to do things. Why? Because there are few alternatives. No parties have quick fix solutions to the issues that we face. Why not? Because they don’t exist.

So, simple solution is vote for the MP who best addresses you local issues. That is one area where he/she might just make a difference.

There are so many factors at play that it’s virtually impossible to do direct comparisons of any countries. That’s why I generalised. I don’t claim to know much about global economics, however I do know that countries which have tried socialism as a form of government generally seem to me to end up worse off.

You mention about Britain being one of the G7. Indeed, but how did we end up being one of the G7.

This claim is so weak you dont even seem certain of what it is you are saying so
you claim almost always

I said “almost” always because I’m well aware that “almost” every rule has an exception to it. That doesn’t weaken my general point. Not everything is completely true or false, though true and false aren’t really the terms I’d use in that case.

Also, I wasn’t advocating pursuing wealth above everything else. What I would say though is that the things we all want (good health, education, housing, trail centres 🙂 etc) do tend to require a country to be wealthy in the first place.

I don’t claim to be 100% correct, and am happy for someone to disprove my claim. it is, to be honest, basically a gut feeling more than scientific research. Also, I was actually more drawing a distinction between socialism and the centre right/left, than between right and left per se. Much as my own views do tend to be right of centre, as I said, countries such as Norway, Sweden etc do give me a lot of food for thought.

FWIW i think you are saying SoL but you mean GDP

You may wish to read this link

I actually meant a general, fuzzy, ill-defined “would I be happy living there” sort of thing to be honest. Interesting link though and it does confirm my view that there aren’t many places in the world I’d prefer to stay other than Britain (14th out of 187).

I’d also like to say that I agree with pretty much everything in teamhurtmore’s post. I know it’s the done thing to rubbish politicians of every party, but, at the risk of sounding controversial, over the decades I think they’ve generally done a great job of making this country a great place to live.

This claim is so weak…

My claim essentially is that socialism doesn’t work. As you say that it’s a very weak claim is it safe to say you believe socialism does work? If so some evidence please. Ta.

I think the LD bashing is way OTT. So they renagde on tuition fees – no shit Sherlock – always a non-starter, and they have Vince in the a team along with a bunch of people they don’t agree with. Oh and they were dealt a pretty shitty hand to play.

Yes the coalition have made mistakes, but despite all of the above and our inexperience re making coalitions work, they haven’t done too badly. And the LDs should take some credit, but instead they are slaughtered because they give up on the fluff,

Tough life….who are the next lambs to the slaughter at the altar of unrealistic expectations?

In some cases I suspect that is true, however take East and West Germany for example. Both started from the same base point, one capitalist and the other socialist. Which was the better place to live?

I guess it depends who you are ask.

Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism

“Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany”.

You mention about Britain being one of the G7. Indeed, but how did we end up being one of the G7.

Slavery and pillaging the world for resources via war
Was I meant to say hard work an enterprising spirit and centre right policies 😉

Most of Europe is in the G7 it is a lot of luck that it is currently our [ the west] empire but China is about to kick all our arses and that is not that centre right and its progress this century will negate much of what you are saying.

I guess it depends who you are ask.

Would be interesting to see what percentage of West Germans would say their half was better. I suspect the answer would be around 99%. And though that article says 57%, if there were to be a referendum tomorrow about returning to the old Communist East Germany I think you’d see that 57% shrink rapidly. It’s one thing answering a newspaper poll, real life is very different.

Most of Europe is in the G7

Err, you might want to look at the arithmetic of that statement! 🙂

Slavery and pillaging the world for resources via war

We were the country that played a huge part in putting an end to slavery. As for war, simple matter is that we were far better than the rest. In those days it was far more of a dog eat dog world.

China is about to kick all our arses

I strongly suspect it isn’t. The Chinese system has expanded too rapidly and is about to hit all sorts of problems in the next decade or two.

Would be interesting to see what percentage of West Germans would say their half was better. I suspect the answer would be around 99%. And though that article says 57%, if there were to be a referendum tomorrow about returning to the old Communist East Germany I think you’d see that 57% shrink rapidly. It’s one thing answering a newspaper poll, real life is very different.

I take it you didn’t like the answer to your question. I did say that it depends who you ask, which isn’t surprising really. Presumably that’s why you now want to change it to a different question ? Or ask the same question to Western Germans only ?

I actually deleted a bit about the size of the population DOH 😳

If you look at GDP per capita the EU is doing very well but yes not my best sentence

Funny how right wingers always say we ended slavery when you point out we did it. What we did was indefensible and bringing it to an end is hardly a good thing. Like expecting gratitude because I have stopped kicking you. Still I was better at it than you and it was dog eat dog then 😕

I dont like your morals any more than I like your argument.

years ago (well before the expenses fiasco) , I wrote on my facebook page under the heading for political views…

“None, they’re all lying cheating thieving t****”

I reread it recently and saw that my once joke, was oh so true and sadly i feel it will always be that way

Funny how right wingers always say we ended slavery when you point out we did it. What we did was indefensible and bringing it to an end is hardly a good thing. Like expecting gratitude because I have stopped kicking you.

Considering life expectancy and the length of time the slave trade was going on for ending it has nothing to do with starting it, there were generations apart in many ways.

Kenyup’s map is a tad misleading. One would think that a country whose current state is founded on a revolution of the lower classes and shining principle is liberty equality fraternity would feature as a socialist state . A significant number of the successful capatilists in this country prefer to live in that country too.

One data point, but how about Pakistan and India (the latter is a socialist country according to your link)?

Though I’m wondering if you even bothered to read your link properly – at the most you might be able to have some justification for your points if you substitute “socialist” for “Marxist-Leninist” (I’ll leave you to work out the distinction).

who are the next lambs to the slaughter at the altar of unrealistic expectations?

Probably the next lot stupid enough to do this and capitulate immediately.

FWIW i agree with your broad point re the Lib Dems and think they have done pretty well in some limited areas – raisinf tax threshold, schools and curtailing the excess of tory policies but it should not need explaining why they are judged so poorly for that initial decision and why no one trusts them, A vote for the lib dems is like rolling the dice.

Considering life expectancy and the length of time the slave trade was going on for ending it has nothing to do with starting it, there were generations apart in many ways.

TBH I am not sure the fact we did it for generations can be given a positive spin.

it’s not a positive spin Junki it’s that you can’t lump those who started it with those who had the courage to end it.
Recognise also that the Lib Dems were the junior partner in a coalition, they only get junior decision making rights and have to give stuff up to get them. There is a state election finishing up here in Oz where 2/99 MP’s are presenting a list of 26 massive demands in order to help one party or the other make government. So the minority gets the sway, not exactly what people voted for.

who are the next lambs to the slaughter at the altar of unrealistic expectations?

Nicola Sturgeon was on the news last night saying the SNP would only support a minority labour administration if it scrapped Britain’s nuclear weapons. So theres your next candidate right there.

I am not lumping them together I am saying the fact we were part of the slave trade for generations is shameful and avoiding discussing our part in slavery and just mentioning that we ended it is to avoid the issue/sidestep it.

have to give stuff up to get them

They also get to choose what they give up and they chose to give and up and do the thing they pledged to vote against. Not exactly why people voted for them and not a part of their electoral mandate.
Everyone is free to judge them for this decision and decide how trustworthy and meaningful their manifesto and commitments are . IME even life long lib dems struggle to do this. It was a mistake and it will be a costly one.
Personally I think if you ignore that one issue the lib dems get a credible 7.5/10 from me but taking that into account it drops to I would never vote for them.

Just to expand on the point I made yesterday, what are people’s thought’s on potential post may 7th Coalitions?

Which parties would, could or should work together?
Which combo’s would make an utter fist of it?

Thoughts?

Hard to see the greens or SNP with the tories- so they will help Labour

Hard to see UKIP with anyone but the Tories as they are just more racist Tories.

Lib dem 4 MP’s will be happy to help anyone 😉

I wonder which scares THM most

AS in govt or Farage 😈

What post Home secretary ?
Deputy PM 😯

The Tories coming out and saying they’d not go into a coalition with UKIP under any circumstances, actually means they’d be more than happy to do just that.

The SNP and labour are an obvious one! Can you imagine just how smug Wee Eck would look in Westminster as he dictates terms to Millibean?

If the last 5 year have proved one thing, its that the Lib Dems under Nick Clegg have no discernible principles whatsoever and would go into a coalition with anybody.

The idea of a Tory/UKIP coalition is truly terrifying! Out of Europe and full steam ahead with privatising the NHS, and completely wrecking (what remains of) the countries economy

Time to leave the country! 😯

Sturgeon had been on the DOs happy pipe yesterday.

If only it was that easy, Nicola.

What surprises me with you lot is that you seem to think the Lib Dems are in some way unique with this. Put any of the other parties in the same situation, I expect they’d all have done the same thing. You do know the old joke about how you tell when a politician is lying? I also wonder whether people who’ve previously voted Lib Dem and say they won’t again are cutting off their nose to spite their face – who else are they going to vote for who is most likely to influence policy in the way they’d like?

No need to panic – the private sector rest if us get on reasonably well despite the efforts of our elected representatives. Leave them to react to events, we build businesses and growth.

The European issue is actually terrifying – looking at Ukraine, we are sleep walking into really scary times.

The “this isn’t democratic” brigade can have a field day if minority partners such as SNP and UKIP end up with undue influence.

Perhaps aracer ..perhaps we had higher expectations that they would actually practice what they preach and be different but it was such a spectacular and public about face that it will stay long in the memory.

I cannot think of such a public …this is what we stand for and then doing the opposite though Can you ? [ genuine q] Of course they are all liars but the Lib Dems meant that when they said it and then did the opposite that was unforgivable IMHO

Tories saying they would do nothing to the NHS was a known lie as was “greenest govt ever”. They did not mean it when they said it so no real surprise when they ignored it.

The idea of a Tory/UKIP coalition is truly terrifying! Out of Europe

How does giving people a referendum equate to ‘out of Europe’? And if it did, then wouldn’t that be democracy in action?

What exactly is so terrifying about allowing people to vote on an issue?

I think the Tories said something about doing nothing to the NHS and being the greenest government ever 😉 The issue here is that you expect the Tories to lie, but had unrealistic expectations of the Lib Dems.

I’d love to discuss the reality of the vote on tuition fees (I know Clegg has stated that the pledge was a mistake, not the vote), but suspect we’d totally derail this thread!

Side bar on FB 😀

Happy to discuss it or just do it here on the grounds you may change my political view so its on topic