Another war in Palestine

A half naked young woman dragged through the streets strapped to the back of a pick up, raped, then murdered.  Young girls, maybe 9 or 10 years old having the shit kicked out of them by grown men all caught on video to be celebrated….  But yeah crack on 2 sides to every story, let’s have a reasonable debate.  Meanwhile where are the leaders of Hamas whilst all this happens – oh yeah that’s right they’re living in luxury in Tehran or Damascus…

Morally bankrupt indeed 

Over the years there have been hundreds of direct attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinians. Suicide bombings on buses, schools, restaurants, mass shootings, car bombings and stabbings on randomly selected civilians.

Yes there have been, but is it not naive to simply dismiss those attacks without knowing what lies behind them.

It should be noted that in many of these cases it has been an individual action, against what they see as an oppressor, carried out by everyday people who have lost everything. People whose homes have been bulldozed, family members gunned down. So possibly a case of a last desperate act of retribution rather than some planned attack on behalf of a militant organization.

Do we not find it odd that is some cases its been a 60 year old suddenly attacking a group of policemen or army, knowing they aren’t going to survive.

These instances are not looked into, the perpetrator is simply classed and reported as being a terrorist. Labels work best when no further investigations take place.

.

Im not going to say this is synonymous of every attack, but the truth and evidence does show that these type of attacks have and do take place and those are the reasons for them.

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eg. Israeli settlers attack a Palestinian home setting fire to it and burning to death a baby and its parents. What would the relatives do in such a case when overcome with the horror of that situation. Can we condemn them for wanting to inflict retribution. Have we any right to ?.

Any atrocities committed by the Palestinians should be categorically condemned, no one is going to dispute that.

How is that relevant?

Israelis are somehow allowed to commit war crimes and ignore international law?

Edit: Israeli war crimes are regularly documented by humanitarian/human rights agencies and the United Nations. Any war crimes currently being committed by the Palestinians will no doubt also be documented.

Or is there anyone who believes that the United Nations and other agencies simply ignore war crimes committed the Palestinians?

Would it be fair to call you a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist?

Which one of us is making excuses for murder?
I’ll leave you to it.

Which one of us is making excuses for murder?

I thought you were. I have repeatedly provided evidence of Israeli forces committing cold-blooded murder and you haven’t condemned it.

That’s how it works isn’t it…..if you don’t condemn it you are a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist, no?

I won’t hesitate to condemn any atrocities committed by the Palestinians. Give me specific examples and I will condemn them.

I have repeatedly provided evidence of Israeli forces committing cold-blooded murder

Precisely. This what you have chosen to do today, in response to atrocities committed against Israeli civilians and families.

I remain quite confident that passions inflamed by this debate will be resolved, and that lessons learned from this very thread will lead to peace across the whole of Arabia.

Why isn’t there more snooker on television?

I appreciate that ^^ comment is designed to be sarcastic. However global attitudes are dramatically changing and it isn’t necessarily down to the MSM.

Ironically Israel’s most fervent supporters in the United States are the Christian MAGA far-right, the majority of American Jews no longer back unconditional support for Israel:

I hear it from them. They see social media, they’re checking out information coming from the Middle East. They don’t have to rely on the mass media here any more. They’re more sceptical about what they hear from the politicians and mainstream Jewish groups,” he said.

In 2021, a Jewish Electorate Institute poll found that 58% of American Jewish voters support restrictions on US military aid to prevent Israel using it to expand West Bank settlements. One-third agreed that “Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is similar to racism in the United States” and one-quarter said that “Israel is an apartheid state”, numbers that shocked some Jewish community leaders.

Part of the shift has been driven by social media and the wide circulation of videos such as Israeli assaults on Gaza and the West Bank, the large-scale forced removal of Palestinians from the South Hebron hills, and armed Jewish settlers rampaging through Palestinian towns.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/24/american-jews-critical-israeli-settlements-west-bank

Btw the 25% of American Jews who said that “Israel is an apartheid state” wouldn’t be welcomed in the Labour Party as they would probably be classed as antisemitic.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/02/18/labour-candidate-called-israel-apartheid-state/

Any atrocities committed by the Palestinians should be categorically condemned, no one is going to dispute that.

You should probably have a word with somafunk.

somafunk
Full Member
I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

It’s not “an idea”, it is what’s happening, right now. A fact on the ground, not an opinion. And should be condemned outright. Yes, the fight to regain stolen ground will mean death and destruction along the way. But if Ukraine were using the same tactics against Russian occupied regions… rape as a weapon of war, execution of civilian hostages, close quarters machine gunning of infants… the world would rightly be up in arms.

Israel should be back behind the green line, and the UN and its members should have insisted on that decades ago (USA are not the only culprits here, but are the most important). Without the international community being stronger with Israel about its continuing expansion, fighting is unavoidable. The tactics being seen right now should be condemned by all though. You can be on the side of those struggling for their freedom and their land against an occupying oppressor and still say what much of has recently happened is wrong, must stop, is counterproductive, and some of it is quite frankly down right evil.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

There is absolutely no way that someone with so much to say on this topic can genuinely hold this opinion, given the terabytes of video and photo evidence to the contrary that’s become available in the last 26 hours. Ernie, I’ll be kind and consider you’re playing Devil’s Advocate.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

It’s called “terrorism”. The aim isn’t to win militarily, it’s to provoke terror among the civilian population.

Israel should be back behind the green line, and the UN and its members should have insisted on that decades ago (USA are not the only culprits here, but are the most important). Without the international community being stronger with Israel about its continuing expansion, fighting is unavoidable. The tactics being seen right now should be condemned by all though.

It’s far more complex than that. One major issue is that the U.S. agreed in the 1970s to provide military aid to Egypt as part of the peace deal between Israel and Egypt. Military aid to Israel is also related to that. Another war between Egypt and Israel would be catastrophic, so the U.S. is stuck providing military aid to two countries with very problematic histories. Cutting off the support would be worse though, so the idea that the U.S. should cut off support for Israel is a non-starter. That would destabilize the region and probably lead to Israel launching preemptive strikes against Iran to prevent Iran building nuclear weapons.

An important part of signing a peace treaty with Israel is recognition of Israel. Hamas refuse to do that, their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. Israel interprets that as a call for a second holocaust and the events of this week will make them double down on that belief. Unless the international community is willing to crack down on Hamas and put its leaders on trial for their crimes, Israel will never accept any deal brokered by outside countries. Having lefties in Western countries dismissing the killing of Israeli citizens just hardens Israeli’s view that the world does not care about the killing of Jews.

Back in the 1990s, it looked like there was a serious chance of a peace deal, where Israel would return occupied lands and Palestinians would recognize Israel. Hard liners on both sides kept provoking violence in order to sabotage that – they aren’t interested in peace, they benefit from continuing conflict. For any peace deal to work, as well as Israel withdrawing from occupied territories, Palestinian leaders would need to guarantee that violence against Israel stopped. No Palestinian leader could enforce any deal like that, so no Israeli leader could sell that to the Israeli public. This war is going to go very badly for Palestinians, anyone cheering it on in the belief that it might somehow teach Israelis a lesson is quite deluded. The lesson that Israelis will take from it is that Palestinians can never be trusted and it is pointless to try negotiating with them. So, there’s no point in calling on Israel to do anything unless the international community is willing to hold Hamas leaders to the standards that Israel is called to uphold.

I can’t see that you have condemned that. Would it be fair to call you a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist?

There’s a difference between not addressing and condemning specific atrocities individually, and blanket statements claiming Palestine* don’t attack civilians, despite historical evidence as well as the terabytes evidence that have become available in the past day.
Nobody here is cheering on the murder of Palestinean journalists or the mass bulldozing of Palestinean settlements. But some are playing the  whataboutery card, balancing the forced displacement of people against the brutal murder of families hiding in bomb shelters and deciding that justice has been served.
I challenge you to go look on telegram or even Twitter and look at the piles of bodies in Sderot and the surrounding areas, watch the videos of women and children being kidnapped, the German festival goer’s broken and naked body being kicked and spit on as it is paraded around the streets of Gaza, and then come back here and tell us your opinion still holds water.
*and really you should be using Hamas here, but to do that would differentiate between the people and the terrorist organisation which lessens the impact of your outrage when the IDF retaliates

But if Ukraine were using the same tactics against Russian occupied regions…

The solution is obviously to supply the Palestinians with HIMARS and Leopard tanks. Then they wouldn’t have to attack soft targets. 

oh, while we’re on the subject, any thoughts about Ikrainian drones hitting apartment buildings?

It’s called “terrorism”. The aim isn’t to win militarily, it’s to provoke terror among the civilian population.

“shock and awe” you mean?  Really, “terrorism” as a label serves no useful purpose except to tell us clearly what your prejudices are. 

Nice to see some classy bickering

I haven’t seen any tin foil theories about why hamas have decided to do a massive surprise escalation now.  seemed very out of the blue.

given who their allies are, maybe there is some bigger play here.  unless hamas are just basically insane and there isnt a bigger plan and its just about killing jews.  what they have just done is going to make the life of their people much worse 

No conspiracy needed. It’s to ruin the Israel-Saudi “normalisation” talks, and it looks like it worked.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/significance-hamas-chose-attack-israel-now-rcna119351

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-gaza-rockets-attack-palestinians/card/hezbollah-praises-hamas-attack-warns-against-normalising-ties-with-israel

what they have just done is going to make the life of their people much worse 

because their lives were so comfortable before, right?

Another crucial thing that lefties constantly seem to miss is that other people have agency. The fantasy that the U.S. can somehow force Israel, Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, etc. to accept treaties that they aren’t interested in accepting ignores that other countries make their decisions based on their own assessments of their national interests. The same goes for Hamas – the idea that they will just lay down their weapons if Israel returns occupied territories ignores that they have their own agenda and agency, an agenda which is very different from comfortable middle-class people living in rich Western countries. Hamas are not interested in a peace treaty with Israel, their goal is to destroy Israel. Israel knows this and they will not be coerced into signing any agreement, especially after the events of this week.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

It’s called “terrorism”. The aim isn’t to win militarily, it’s to provoke terror among the civilian population.

I don’t know if this is deliberate or whether there is a genuine ‘misunderstanding’ of what I was saying.

I was of course refering to Palestinian rocket attacks. Rockets are a principal weapon used by the Palestinian resistance, there is no doubt that they are inaccurate, they are afterall made covertly using smuggled materials.

Their use is widespread and undisputed. But the idea that Palestinians would deliberately use these extremely valuable and limited resources against civilian targets rather than military targets is just simply daft. Of course they would rather that they hit a military target, if for no other reason than it would make them more useful and effective.

And as for the definition of ‘terrorism’, the turkey shoots which the IDF regularly carries out against the unarmed people of Gaza is precisely to instill terror. Israeli governments are renowned for their collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

Collective punishment is banned under Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, why do think that might be? Yup, because it is terrorism.

Netanyahu said yesterday “I’m telling the people of Gaza: get out of there now, because we’re about to act everywhere with all our force,” I don’t know if he said that with a straight face, knowing as he does that Gaza is basically a huge concentration camp.

So now it will of course be the fault of all the men, women, and children, who die, not his, he will claim.

lefties

Yawn.

jeez.  unnecessary really

I never said anyone had a comfortable live.  I said it’s been made worse by these horrific actions.  for people on both sides

resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter

I didn’t know about the Saudi thing, thanks for that, off to read…

Of course they would rather that they hit a military target, if for no other reason than it would make them more useful and effective.

I’ll ask again. Go watch the videos of civilians being machine gunned in bomb shelters, go watch the Philippino farm workers herded into a room and shot, and then come back and tell us that Hamas prefer military targets.

resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter

Like schools and hospitals you mean? Like the ones routinely destroyed by the Israelis? If there was a path to peace and prosperity do you suppose that Hamas would be able to get volunteers to stuff envelopes, never mind to strap on suicide vests?

But the idea that Palestinians would deliberately use these extremely valuable and limited resources against civilian targets rather than military targets is just simply daft.

Have you never read a single newspaper in the last 30 years? How much evidence do you need before you accept that Hamas targets Israeli civilians as a matter of policy? I think everyone on here would love to see Israel and Palestinians live together in peace, but that won’t come about by denying the reality that Hamas have no interest in a peace treaty and have a policy of indiscriminately killing Israeli civilians in order to make any peace deal impossible.

And have any of you so concerned about the plight of poor old Hamas considered what has happened when they were allowed into other countries? There’s a reason Egypt has shut their border with Gaza. Maybe look at the events around Black September and who was involved, or consider why Lebanon is now a hell hole in the firm grasp of Hezbollah rather than the international trade hub it was on the verge of becoming.

resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter

So you are denying the right of people living under occupation to fight, a right which is enshrined under international law, why? Because they are Palestinians?

Israel is the last remaining colony held by Western powers, they even talk of “settlers” ffs.

I can’t comment on whether it is sexual but you seem to have a total and callous disregard for the murder of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Actually I condemn the murder of anyone. You on the other hand not so much and still preach that what’s happened in the last 24 hours is justifiable in some way and swerve answering direct questions. So we are clear women have been raped, murdered, bodies defiled and paraded on the back of picks for people to spit and cheer over.

A very simple and binary question. Do you condemn that y/n?

And as for the definition of ‘terrorism’, the turkey shoots which the IDF regularly carries out against the unarmed people of Gaza

Amateur stuff. Dresden and Hiroshima FTW

And have any of you so concerned about the plight of poor old Hamas considered what has happened when they were allowed into other countries?

And, while you’re at it, read up on the history of the PLO and why Jordan booted them out decades ago. Nobody wants armed militants in their country, including Islamic countries.

Anyway I have got to meet my Iranian friend for a bike ride at 9am, so I will leave it for now.

I think everyone on here would love to see Israel and Palestinians live together in peace, but that won’t come about by denying the reality that Hamas have no interest in a peace treaty and have a policy of indiscriminately killing Israeli civilians in order to make any peace deal impossible.

Remind us of the peace initiatives undertaken by the current Israeli government; I seem to have missed them.

Anyway I have got to meet my Iranian friend for a bike ride at 9am, so I will leave it for now.

Off to get a fresh set of talking points?

Remind us of the peace initiatives undertaken by the current Israeli government; I seem to have missed them.

The Israeli government gave up on peace initiatives long ago. Right-wing Israelis’ view is that Palestinians cannot be trusted and they will not negotiate with groups like Hamas whose goal is the destruction of Israel. This week’s events will have cemented those views in the minds of every Israeli so no peace initiatives will be possible for decades to come. That’s why celebrating the killing of Israeli civilians is so stupid – it just convinces Israelis that the world doesn’t care about the killing of Jews and that makes things even worse for Palestinians.

Always interesting to see how in discussions like this can descend with the ad homs, pejorative terms, from the anecdote to the generalization, the liberal use of contested terms. Any country based on apartheid and even more so one that ‘settles’ on others’ land is creating an ever expanding powder keg for itself. It’s no surprise when every now and then it goes off.

Its like the Labour party conference in here, isn’t it.

An ad hom is when you attack the person to avoid engaging with their position.

ernielynch’s position:

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

has not been ignored

All these attacks are inside 1967 borders – these civilians are not settlers.
Civilians were deliverabely targeted, not ‘collateral damage’, there’s an abundance of grim evidence that unfolded in real time.

Whatever your opinions on the complexities of the wider Israel / Palestine conflict, yesterdays events were a barbaric outrage.

Hamas and the Israeli government as as bad as each other.  They have both committed atrocities in the last god knows how many years.  The fact our government supports what Israel is doing is the shocking thing.   No one seems to want to criticise what Israel is currently doing with Palestine in general or the fact they are bombing civilians in Gaza.