Another war in Palestine

the “no man left behind” principle.

It’s not unique, most nations, especially western ones don’t tend to leave service people or citizens in the hands of others.

Israel is carrying out war crimes as we speak and to say so isn’t antisemitism it is stating fact.

The tactic appears to be to clear Gaza of both Palestinians and Hamas with a view to provide better security and revenge for being attacked but the idea Israel is in an existential fight is ludicrous.

Both Israel and Hamas must be widely condemned and some form of peace plan formulated otherwise this is going to go on and on.

TJ you want me to explain to you why repeated and casual references to Nazism in this context are antisemitic? You’re having a laugh right? Nazism is such a loaded term that involves the systematic manufacturing of grievances against the Jews right through to the attempt at industrialised eradication. There are some attempts above to salami slice out particular elements and apply those to this situation but that’s a ridiculous thing to do with a term that’s so loaded in this context.

Casual antisemitism might be normal for you in your circle but I know it when I see it.

so you cannot explain but instead call me and my friends antisemetic?  You just make my point for me

So yes – I want you to explain why you make such vile slurs at people and to justify the slurs youmake

Or is the plan to create a humanitarian emergency on such a scale that the international community is forced to open the Egyptian border and then deal with the refugees however they see fit?  Then Israel closes the border and Gaza simply becomes part of Israel (once the rubble is cleared).

This is my guess, based on the intereview I mentioned above.

Given Russia has just levelled several cities in Ukraine, would that not seem like a better analogy? Or Syria over the past few years? Why go for that one?

Because Alpin was making a comparison regarding an ethic group being forced into a ghetto by an occupying power.

Which then resulted in wild allegations of anti-semitism.

Where are the comparisons with Russia and Syria? They are not obvious.

I’m sure it isn’t unique, mando, but it was a response to this comment:

As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.

He was absolutely seething earlier this morning with Netanyahu in the conversation, completely seething. He said the entire situation leading up to and being undertaken now is Netanyahu’s complete and utter failure to descalate over 15 years.

Reassuring to hear, but – as people keep reminding us – Israel is a democracy, so we must assume that this appalling affair reflects the wishes of the Israeli people.

Its a pseudo democracy.  some folk don’t get to vote and they tend to have far right parties holding the balance of power so wielding undue power

Because Alpin was making a comparison regarding an ethic group being forced into a ghetto by an occupying power.

No, Ernie. The comparison was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (against the SS taking them to the death camps) and the attack on Saturday, with specific mention of the festival were so many were raped and murdered.

What is Israel’s end game with respect to Gaza?

My guess is that they won’t stop until they’ve forced the entire Palestinian population into Egypt, then they’ll close the border.

Permanently.

Job jobbed!

Its a pseudo democracy.  some folk don’t get to vote and they tend to have far right parties holding the balance of power so wielding undue power

Well I’m shocked – you mean they aren’t Just Like Us ? And to state the obvious, far right parties hold the balance of power because people vote for them.

The comparison was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

When you make an analogy, or draw a parallel, it’s a little ridiculous to expect it to correspond in every particular, no?

yes but due to the way the Knesset is set up they wield far greater power than the votes they get.  Its an example of how proportional representation and coalitions can lead to unrepresentative government.

I do not know the current make up of the Knesset tho

I think TJ is alluding to the fact Israel vote via PR so middle ground politicians have to cosy up to more extreme elements in order to form a government. These elects can then exert influence out of line to majority of voters views.

As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.

Anyone making this sort of comment is just demonstrating they don’t have the slightest clue about modern Israeli-Palestinian history. Hostages are a critical issue, from Entebbe to the Achille Lauro to Gilad Shalit. The whole reason Hamas bothered to kidnap so many people this time is because last time Israel swapped 1000 Hamas associates for 1 Israeli soldier, and because it ensures that Israel will be sucked into a ground war in Gaza rather than merely aerial bombardments. And Israel has (it claims) rescued 250 hostages from a single location in Gaza after the ground invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-defence-forces-storm-bunker-near-gaza-security-fence-put-a-pistol-to-him-4476730/amp/1

yes but due to the way the Knesset is set up they wield far greater power than the votes they get.  Its an example of how proportional representation and coalitions can lead to unrepresentative government.

Understood, and to an extent you see that in civilised countries, eg Danish “People’s Party” having a malign influence, but after 15 years you’d have thought that the Israelis could have figured out how to get a government that seeks peace based on justice. If they actually wanted one.

Ok. So we can’t compare them to the Nazis, how about the originators of concentrations camps and scorched earth policies- the British empire. With their inflicted famines in Ireland & India they aren’t adverse to a spot of ethnic cleansing too.

Understood, and to an extent you see that in civilised countries, eg Danish “People’s Party” having a malign influence, but after 15 years you’d have thought that the Israelis could have figured out how to get a government that seeks peace based on justice. If they actually wanted one.

Isn’t that the same argument you could apply to Hamas having been in power since 2006? For peace two sides need to come together.

Isn’t that the same argument you could apply to Hamas having been in power since 2006?

Who has voted for Hamas since 2006 ?

there can be no peace in the middle east without justice for the Palestinians

Those who fail to learn from history will continue to make the same mistakes

to continue doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is madness

applies to allsides

No, Ernie. The comparison was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (against the SS taking them to the death camps)

There was no mention of the death camps at all! No have just added that for effect.

Alpin simply made the comparison of an ethnic group being horded into a ghetto in an occupied land rising up against their invaders, a perfectly valid comment.

The fact that those illegally occupying territory in this current case are actually Jewish is actually highly significant, for very obvious reasons.

There is nothing anti-semitic about it – Jews oppose Israel’s appalling behaviour too. And to suggest none do is anti-semitic!

To avoid any further confusion this is exactly what Alpin said:

If I were a Palestinian, with f-all prospects, living in a ghetto of 2.2 million people, who a generation (now several) ago were horded into a tiny enclave from lands whose ancestors once lived and farmed then I too might think “f-it what have I got to lose?”.

Ironically there are quite a few parallels with the uprisings in Jewish ghettos in Warsaw and elsewhere against Nazi oppression. The fact that Isreal chooses not to notice this is baffling to me. If it does notice it and yet continues along its path then more fool then.

This whole thing is in their hands.

You might not agree but it clearly isn’t racism.

benosFull Member
I’m sure it isn’t unique, mando, but it was a response to this comment:

As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.

Im sorry, but thats how I feel given the events and Israels actions over the last few days. They clearly do not give a damn about Palestinian civilian casualties, be that of any age, and are on a course of action that is going to result in far more.

It is horrifying that these hostages were taken, and are inside Gaza, so why then is Israel continuing the relentless bombing campaign if it is obvious that these hostages might well be hit, and we’ve already had reports of 9 being killed in Israeli strikes thus far. So Israel know they are there, possibly with Hamas fighters, but are looking to bomb Hamas fighter positions, knowing full the hostages may be hit also.

.

Negotiate a ceasefire, then look to negotiate hostage release, but continue bombing and the only hostages they are likely to find are dead ones.

So say after they remove all Palestinians from the north, bomb then go in and find none. This would mean the hostages have been moved south. What then ? Continue bombing that area ?, or have the Palestinians move further south, bomb the area they occupied then again move the military in. Again they find nothing other than hostages killed in that bombing, or murdered by Hamas

Rinse and repeat ? eventually there will be no hostages. They will have been killed in Israeli strikes, or murdered by Hamas unable to move them any further, or across the Egyptian border, but the result is the same, it is unlikely continuing the way it is that they will survive.

Who has voted for Hamas since 2006 ?

You raised the point about no change in Israel politics for 15 years which was the context of the response. I think the point being made about no vote since 2006 is lost on you.

Ernie, I was explaining what the uprising was about, as you didn’t appear to be aware. The Polish Jews knew at that point they were being exterminated.

Since Alpin brought up the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, not the ghetto itself, that was the comparison he was making. The uprising with the Hamas attack (referencing the dance festival).

I think the point being made about no vote since 2006 is lost on you.

Maybe, but my original point was that we are told that a) Israel is a democracy (and hence superior to their neighbours) and b) most Israelis are decent people who want peace and justice (ditto). Which makes the continual rule by warmongers a little perplexing.

Ernie, I was explaining what the uprising was about, as you didn’t appear to be aware. The Polish Jews knew at that point they were being exterminated.

No they didn’t. They had no idea that they were going to be sent to death camps. People obediently got off the trains at Auschwitz totally unaware of the gas chambers. The ghetto uprising had nothing to do with that.

No one has mentioned the death camps. Apart from you.

Alpin simply made the comparison of an ethnic group being horded into a ghetto in an occupied land rising up against their invaders, a perfectly valid comment.

it’s wildly antisemitic. It’s not “an ethnic group” – it’s the Jews. The context was their extermination at the hands of the Nazis who believed that the Jews had to be wiped from the earth. Hamas are not “rising up” they are attempting to exterminate the Jews and this is key to their ideology. Thus comparing Hamas in 2023 with the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto is both wrong as a simple comparison but also grossly offensive to everyone. Even Hamas would find it wrong and offensive as it downplays their aims, capability and agency.

At some point yes the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto became widely aware of the death camps.  However this had very little to do with the uprising according to a jewish historian I read.  the uprising was in response to conditions in the ghetto and was intended to be part of a wider uprising in poland.

You jeep claiming antisemitism without any reasoning as to why it is.  It may be wrong, it may be distasteful but it is not antisemetic in any way to draw the obvious comparisons between the Nazis and the Isrteali government.

Just shouting antisemitism at every opportunity devalues the term and makes your argument much less effective

Thus comparing Hamas in 2023 with the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto is both wrong as a simple comparison but also grossly offensive to everyone.

No one has done this.  alpin referred to the ordinary person in the camps not Hamas.

You do realise your comments about the palestinians are verging on racist? 

Interesting that no one is interested in defending Israel against the claim their goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza (or at a minimum northern Gaza) but have been very keen on arguing whether a specific parallel made three pages ago was antisemitic or not.

On another day I might be happy to discuss the minutia of what constitutes antisemitism but with the current events it seems like bad faith arguments to avoid having to face the real issue.

Thus comparing Hamas in 2023 with the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto is both wrong as a simple comparison but also grossly offensive to everyone. Even Hamas would find it wrong and offensive as it downplays their aims, capability and agency.

Not Hamas, Palestinians. You do realise that the vast majority of people in Gaza are just normal Palestinian people don’t you?

Ernie, the salient point is that they were fighting the SS, not murdering women and children, but sources show that they did know about the exterminations by then (you can quibble about that if you like, but not with me)

draw the obvious comparisons between the Nazis and the Isrteali government

This is the problem…there are no obvious parallels. The parallels exist either if you’re too lazy to think about it twist things so much to link broadly the worst people in history to the Israelis, with the apparent aim of dehumanising them.

I support Israel and hope they can achieve peace and security, and that a lasting peace is reached with the Palestinians. I don’t think that end will be helped by flattening Gaza so hopefully good sense and maximum restraint win through on all sides.

I don’t need to or want to justify everything that Israel has done or will do. Just as none of you seem willing to reflect on the nature of what Israel is up against. They’re in a fight for their survival, having survived several near misses before.

Ernie, the salient point is that they were fighting the SS, not murdering women and children

You’re drawing a parallel claiming the ‘civilian’ Palestinians trying to cling to life in Gaza are murdering women and children?

Just like Israeli government != ‘the Jewish people’, Hamas != Palestinian.

@tomd – I don’t think you are capable of reflecting on the nature of what Israel IS. – a criminal apartheid state.

You jeep claiming antisemitism

Its a bit of a distraction.Move the conversation away from
Israels barbaric actions over the last several days and the last X number of years.

Talk about anti-separatism, try to accuse anyone with a brain of being anti-Semitic in the hope they’ll get concerned about such a label and shut up.

As alluded to earlier, given the mods are rightly watching this thread we wouldn’t still be here ‘discussing’ this if there was anything close to anti-semitism being posted.

If we all admit to being antisemitic will you say whether you think Israel’s goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza?

@colournoise Alpin’s comparison was of the Warsaw uprising with the Hamas attack. He even talked about the dance festival where the massacre took place.

edit Bringing in the Nazis is bad enough, but that comparison was something else.