Another war in Palestine

Ok it’s back open. 

Thanks to our regular posters for behaving as we asked. The troll is gone but no doubt because they are sad and pathetic they’ll be back. Unless their mother takes them out for the day. 

Which one? There are that many it’s hard to keep up…

Surprisingly the FA and FIFA have been rather even handed in their messaging on this issue, although they are getting criticised from some for not unilaterally declaring support for Israel.

Thanks Drac

although they are getting criticised from some for not unilaterally declaring support for Israel.

by the very same people that blast the FA, EPL, and players for taking the knee to stand against prejudice 

Surprisingly the FA and FIFA have been rather even handed in their messaging on this issue, although they are getting criticised from some for not unilaterally declaring support for Israel

The Rabbi (Alex Goldberg) who resigned from the FA multifaith taskforce, because they wouldn’t light Wembley up in the colours of the Israeli flag tonight, sounded like a petulant child on 5 Live this morning. He simply refused to accept why they wouldn’t do it simply because he’d demanded they do.

The players are wearing black armbands and there will be a minutes silence for ALL the victims of violence, but apparently that’s not enough. He clearly expected them to make a partisan statement on his behalf. That’s not the job of the FA.

He then said the FA had refused to engage with him. The FA later issued a statement saying they’d repeatedly tried to contact him on the issue but him who hadn’t engaged with them and had a public hissy fit instead

It is not like the world needs to hear more from Infantino on the subject of prejudice…

Today… I am a rabbi…

On the subject of the Israelis demanding all civilians leave Gaza City… does anyone actually believe for a minute that those Palestinians will ever be allowed to return to whatever is left standing once the IDF has levelled it?

Not a chance!

They must know full well that if they leave, they’re leaving for good

They must know full well that if they leave, they’re leaving for good

Which is supposed to be part of the reason Egypt doesnt want to open the border. They know it will be shut after them and the dispossessed will become Egypts problem.

Recent development- A car load of international journalists have been hit by an Israeli missile. They are calling it a deliberate and targeted attack. Reuters cameraman killed, 6 others rushed to hospital.

I think we would have to get clarification from ex military on stw but to hit a moving target, do they not have to lead it ?, which doesn’t sound like an accidental hit.

Politician with principles (possibly)

An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has criticised Israel for cutting off electricity and water supplies to Gaza, describing the actions as “not acceptable,” and saying they may breach international law…”To me, it amounts to collective punishment. Cutting off power, cutting off fuel supplies and water supplies, that’s not the way a respectable democratic state should conduct itself.”

meanwhile uk manages to **** up evacuation flights, this country is a bit of a joke atm.

alicia kearns:

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/foreign-affairs-committee-chair-claims-israel-has-duty-to-turn-back-on-supplies-in-gaza/

Be interesting if the comments made by Kearns and others gain traction – they need to.

I think we would have to get clarification from ex military on stw but to hit a moving target, do they not have to lead it ?, which doesn’t sound like an accidental hit.

Not necessarily, lead is used with crew served weapons or dumb munitions. But the Israelis have a multitude of guided precision munitions, so there’s a few options at play:

A sensor/system error – this sometimes happens, but modern systems have a very low error rate.

A targeting error – it could have been mistaken for a target vehicle. It could have been confused with a similar vehicle but was not belonging to a ‘hostile’ entity. Sometimes there are errors when ground callsigns relay ID’s to aviation platforms.

A deliberate act – speaks for itself.

Edit: just did some google-fu, one report suggests it was artillery fire, so there’s a whole different ball game at play. They quite conceivably could have deliberatly or accidently wandered into an area fixed for firing.

Having seen ‘war correspondents’ in the wild, as sad as it is, they do dumb shit for a story. Tragic either way.

Journalists regularly die from Israeli fire. Almost one a year on average in the last couple of decades.

Deadly Pattern: 20 journalists died by Israeli military fire in 22 years. No one has been held accountable.

Edit; I think that total is just for those who have specifically died from gunfire, it doesn’t include those that have died from shelling, missile strikes, etc.

This guy is good for all things geopolitics

Just started watching this now

I think at a species level it’s probably best we pack our bags and shove off.

Indeed, that’s pretty likely to happen this century and it’s going to be entirely of our own making.

We’ll never fight climate change, we are too busy fighting each other.

It’s so bloody sad and depressing.

Where there’s life old chap…

…where’s the hope?

Can I just say F Isreal’s actions now and over the past years.

They could have taken the grown up approach given their vast resources and international (US lead) support, yet they continue along the eternal “eye for an eye” ring road. They are the ones who have the power to stop this cycle of death.

If I were a Palestinian, with f-all prospects, living in a ghetto of 2.2 million people, who a generation (now several) ago were horded into a tiny enclave from lands whose ancestors once lived and farmed then I too might think “f-it what have I got to lose?”.

Ironically there are quite a few parallels with the uprisings in Jewish ghettos in Warsaw and elsewhere against Nazi oppression. The fact that Isreal chooses not to notice this is baffling to me. If it does notice it and yet continues along its path then more fool then.

This whole thing is in their hands.

You’ve got a load of freedom loving music festival hippie types dancing in a dessert surrounded by miles of sand, likely off their tits on MDMA, enjoying freedoms that the Palestinian people will never get to enjoy. And within earshot of the fenced in Palestinians.

The Palestinians, through no real fault of their own, don’t have the space to party in the desert.

You can see where the resentment comes from.

Isreal is the only one in a position to change the way things are for both Israelis and Palestinians.

If you were a  Palestinian, would you be happy and accept the status quo of living in a massive ghetto, with all the shitty consequences that entails, whilst a mile away there are Israeli families living the life of Riley on land that your family, for generations, once lived?

I am in no way condoning the actions of Hamas. I can see why they have support given Israel’s actions.

I believe if Iran weren’t supporting Hamas then a different group would be there fighting the cause of the Palestinians.

Many condem Russia for it’s war crime violations when attacking civilian infrastructure, yet there have been far fewer condemnations of Israel’s shutting down of Gaza and expecting half the population to move out of the way of the bombs it was about to launch.

Israeli spokespersons that I’ve heard being interviewed have a tone and attitude that they are not too be questioned and that they have every right to **** over several million people. It’s like they’re indoctrinated.

I’ve donated to Ukraine’s cause. I will do the same for Gaza.

It’s a **** shit show and it makes me sad.

Hamas terrorists act; innocents are murdered and others die as collateral damage.
Israel claims the moral high ground and indiscriminately bombs Gaza then imposes morally indefensible sanctions by blocking aid, water, food, power.
Western political leaders, generally, support Israel; US promises military support.
Hyperbolic statements by high profile Jewish commentators are allowed without challenge in the media.
Palestinian voices are, generally, unheard.
The historic past is irrelevant as it does not reflect the present conflict.
There will be plenty of blame to share around if/when this comes anywhere near to a resolution.
There appears to be no attempt to restrain the Israeli bombing campaign – quite the opposite.
Let’s hope that Hezbollah don’t see this as an opportunity for them; that would escalate the situation several notches.
British involvement in the 1920s/3s/40s and then walking away when it was clear there was no easy solution is, IMO, a signficant contributory factor.
This, I fear, will get much worse before anything improves.

I was going to post this on the military aircraft activity thread, but it’s appropriate here. I was checking to see if any of our military are out there yet, as we’ve promised a couple of ships and P8 Poseidon surveillance aircraft are due to begin patrolling the area, and I noticed this Israeli C-130 had flown over 2000 nautical miles going back and forth, and wondered what it was up to. The Israeli air force don’t have Spectre gunships as far as I know, but perhaps it has sigint capabilities.

Interesting episode of the Newsagents this evening.

I didn’t realise that Maitlis is Jewish. Think one of the other presenters is, too, but can’t remember which. Pleasingly neither took the side of Israel and were highlighting the plight of the Palestinians.

Very balanced reporting from them over the last week.

Also….

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9kZWVwZGlzaG9uZ2xvYmFsYWZmYWlycy5saWJzeW4uY29tL3Jzcw/episode/ZmU4Zjk3N2QtYmNmZC00ZGMwLTg0MTgtYjliNzgyNzhmMjVi?ep=14

That argument doesn’t hold water.

I think you misunderstood my point about history and why it has led to, and still shows the need for, a Jewish state. I love your idea of all states being secular, with those living in them free of persecution based on their religion or connections, but that has never been the case, and isn’t about to be. Where can Jews turn to if the country they live in turns against them? There is currently a long term answer to that question. One country that will always accept them. There are many others that also currently do… but the history lesson is how fast that can change.

I think at a species level it’s probably best we pack our bags and shove off.

The human species has completely screwed it up. It has never really been that great considering the intelligence the species has but the ridiculous things is does/causes and doesn’t fix or feel needs to fix are getting worse and worse by the century. Nature has a way though and in a few hundred years it will probably be sorted out (largely by massive population reduction and forced lifestyle changes)

The Israel based issues will still be going strong at that point…

Where can Jews turn to if the country they live in turns against them?

The Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem who was interviewed by the BBC and is British born and bred didn’t need to find somewhere to live because the UK had turned against her.

The world is full of countries where Jews are welcomed and can live in peace and without fear, they don’t need to drive Palestinians from their homes.

There is no Jewish refugee crisis but there is a huge and constant Palestinian refugee crisis. Palestinians are born and die in refugee camps, and have been for decades.

Where can Palestinians turn to when the Western powers turn against them and drive them from their homes?

Hamas seems to be succeeding in one of its goals…

“Until Iran-backed Hamas sparked a war on Oct. 7 by launching a devastating attack on Israel, both Israeli and Saudi leaders had been saying they were moving steadily towards a deal that could have reshaped the Middle East”

“”Normalisation was already considered taboo (in the Arab world) … this war only amplifies that,” Saudi analyst Aziz Alghashian said.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-puts-israel-deal-ice-amid-war-engages-with-iran-sources-say-2023-10-13/

BUTR made me laugh. This always happens when there’s a crisis, perhaps STW should be proud that it is seen as such an influential organ.

Where can Palestinians turn to when the Western powers turn against them and drive them from their homes?

It’s always surprised me how unwelcome Palestinians are in other Arab nations, it seems like it’s in their game plan to see Palestinians suffer so they can point fingers.

It’s always surprised me how unwelcome Palestinians are in other Arab nations,

From Wiki, Palestinian diaspora numbers in other countries (not the total list, just ‘Arab countries’):

Jordan 3,240,000
Syria 630,000
Lebanon 402,582
Saudi Arabia 280,245
Egypt 270,245
Qatar 100,000
Kuwait 80,000
Iraq 57,000
Yemen 55,000
Libya 44,000

Thanks Alpin and Frank for those long posts above. Both summarised a context that I’ve been thinking. Although appreciate there’s other angles to consider.

I’ve been largely ignorant of the situation in the middle east until now so, despite the odd hiccup, this thread has helped a great deal and given me a good few pointers to follow up and think about.

It’s always surprised me how unwelcome Palestinians are in other Arab nations,

I know someone who had extensive contracts working directly for the Saudi royal family, she claims that the Saudi royals despise the Palestinians.

I think that for the Saudi royals the Palestinians are just awkward trouble makers without a pot to piss in. I am sure they would much rather the Israelis just wiped them off the face of the earth.

That might not reflect the opinions of the people of Arabia though, according to bikesandboots clip above only 2% of the population want to normalise relations with Israel.

Which even for a brutal dictatorship that doesn’t bother with any form of democracy (not not even the illiberal democracy of Iran) that must be a bit of a problem.

ManKIND, manbloodyKIND.

I agree with poopscoop.
Everyone on this planet should be focused on looking after it, including everything that is trying to survive on earth.

Not necessarily where I expected a voice of reason to come from…

You've got to love Patrick Kielty,
he nailed his closing words on Israel / Palestine on The Late Late show

For those unaware his Dad John was shot dead by the UFF during The Troubles in N Ireland

He knows what he's talking about and his words were powerful here. Kudos to him! pic.twitter.com/nc12fjaAMC

— Henry Joseph-Grant (@speirin) October 13, 2023

But i guess shared experience breeds empathy and humanity, since An Taoiseach has also put his head above the international parapet.

Ironically there are quite a few parallels with the uprisings in Jewish ghettos in Warsaw and elsewhere against Nazi oppression.

This comment is outright anti-semitic. Alpin and anyone who upvoted his post needs to have a think about where they went wrong.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

Sorry Benos. I’m not sure I follow? I thought I understood the point alpin was making, but don’t follow on the anti-Semitism angle?

Appreciate that I shouldn’t be sidetracking this thread solely for my own education, but would welcome any explanation.

(And that’s a genuine query from someone largely uninformed, not a challenge in anyway) cheers.

Follow the link.

And just think about it, for goodness sake. Alpin compared the slaughter of Jews at the weekend to “the 1943 act of Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghettoin German-occupied Poland during World War II to oppose Nazi Germany’s final effort to transport the remaining ghetto population to the gas chambers”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

The mods need to take action, and the rest of you need to get a grip. 

Follow the link.

Same as Jim, this is a genuine query, I can’t see which bit of the link makes Alpins comments anti-Semitic? I think Alpin might be wrong, but I don’t think that necessarily means the comments are anti-Semitic.