Another war in Palestine

if Hamas can actually be pushed out. I can’t see it happening whilst they or Bibi are at the table.

But if Hamas is gone, who then do the Palestinian people look to for military support(Or protection) ? Certainly not the Israelis, nor western countries like the UK, US or Europe.

I’m sure Israel would love to see the back of Hamas, but would that in light of the actions taken not be detrimental to the Plight of the Palestinian people. I mean Israel has done nothing other than expel them and place them for the most part in a compound, under extremely oppressive conditions.

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Incidentally welcome to the forum DancingKitty. It’s good to have someone here who clearly has a lot of knowledge in this field, but Im sure what people would like to know are you still ok with 27.5, or is it 29er all the way.

I’m happy to condemn the the actions of the Israeli Govt, it has nothing to do with how old, or not it is as a country; in relation to your mum.

I illustrated the age point specifically because “history” is thrown up as a blocker to deny change.  Desparately needed change.

That argument doesn’t hold water.

It’s an inherently unjust and discriminatory country.  We need to change it.  History should have no bearing on it.
Separate church and state.  A secular country that governs for all.

Given the mentality of the lunatics in the Israeli govt I wouldn’t put it past them to use a nuke or two.

I would. Israel’s nuclear weapons are their “Wonder Weapons” to be used as a last resort when everything else has failed and Israel is about to be overwhelmed by enemy forces, we are a very long way from that.

IMHO Israel’s demise will be very slow, over a very long period of time, and its final collapse probably not more dramatic than the collapse of apartheid in South Africa.

The status of Israel’s nuclear weapons is interesting imo. As far as I am aware Israel is the only country in the world which possess nuclear weapons but doesn’t publicly admit to having any.

All other nuclear armed countries publicly boast of their possession of nuclear weapons because that is part of the deterrent appeal of having them.

Israel on the other hand doesn’t see its nuclear weapons as simply a deterrent but also as an important weapon of last resort.

And of course their secret nuclear weapons arsenal means that it is not subject to international inspections or accusations of treaty violations…..”we don’t have any nuclear weapons, simples”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/wheres-peoples-hearts-humza-yousaf-mother-in-law-sends-tearful-video-from-gaza

But if Hamas is gone, who then do the Palestinian people look to for military support(Or protection) ? Certainly not the Israelis, nor western countries like the UK, US or Europe.

Neither the Palestinians nor Israelis can expect others to protect them. Each needs its own homeland for security. The question is now whether two states are even viable now – and how many people would have to be moved in the process.

Hi Dyna-Ti.

Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!

I think the problem with that argument is that you are falling into the trap of Hamas = the Palestinian people. That is a dangerous road to go down and actually many in the West Bank, whilst being sympathetic to Hamas – would not state that Hamas represents them but Fatah’s Palestinian Authority. Who are somewhat more pragmatic.

Fatah/The PA will be central to any peace negotiations and it’s important that Israel keeps back channel dialogue open with them during this conflict.

Chevychase, yours is the opinion of a a privileged European – the middle east doesn’t do secularism – most of the planet doesn’t. Secularist pan Arab nationalism died a long time ago  in a galaxy far far away – maybe in 50-100 years after the failure of political Islam it can be revived.

It’s an idea that is as ill thought out as introducing democracy to Iraq. There is zero pragmatism in your argument, any one state solution will just lead to further expulsions, pogroms and bloodshed given the almost century old deep seated grievances.

Neither the Palestinians nor Israelis can expect others to protect them.

We4ll Israel has the US, and the UK, and maybe not so much the EU but on the other hand Palestinians have nobody. in that scenario that is. Israel has the vast majority of the land with their 7 million population spread well out, and the Palestinians hemmed in to a much smaller area, they also have a powerful military with all latest toys.

I think the problem with that argument is that you are falling into the trap of Hamas = the Palestinian people

Sorry I disagree. I know Hamas arent the Palestinian people and have said so throughout this thread. Its the same point that was made that the Tories arent the British people.

Hamas come from the Palestinian people mostly but their rise was an inevitability due to the oppressive regime of Israel.

I think we’ve seen that across time, more recently in South Africa with the formation of the ANC or even in Ireland with the IRA.  Where there is oppression, an armed struggle arises.

Is Hamas that different to the Jewish Military Union ?

I think that comparison is a bit mad.

The Jewish Military Union didn’t advocate for the genocide of Germans, in fact there were only a handful of Jews that did – the Nakam – who would be a much closer fit to Hamas. No one thought the Nakam were sensible or fit to be in a leadership position of the post-war Jewish diaspora.

I wonder if Chevychase has ever tried to be an ethnic minority, like a Baha’i, Druze or Christian in a Muslim country.

There’s an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East. For a long time Iraq was one of the most accepting of countries. And Israel one of the least, eg systematically destroying Christian relics.

Yes – the baathists in Iraq and Syria were opposed to political Islam.

We bombed them and then tried to install secularist democracy.

Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!

You have been mostly lurking since you joined on Monday?

There’s an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East.

You’re probably thinking of From the Holy Mountain. A great book. It’s only from 1997 but really feels like a different age.

Chevychase, yours is the opinion of a a privileged European – the middle east doesn’t do secularism

And Israel can’t be expected to have the same values as European countries?

Sure they can….

There’s an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East. For a long time Iraq was one of the most accepting of countries. And Israel one of the least, eg systematically destroying Christian relics.

The book is called From The Holy Mountain. I have it on a shelf somewhere. The stuff in bold is a bold assertion.

@dancingkitty:

the middle east doesn’t do secularism – most of the planet doesn’t

Yes.  And look at the disgusting mess it’s in.   The middle east therefore needs to progress rather than mire itself in the disgusting pit of religious bigotry that the “privileged europeans” have managed to largely drag themselves out of, don’t you think?

Yours is an argument for maintaining a medievel status quo.  The sort of status quo that results in two million people being the subject of collective punishment from a criminal government propped up by the privileged west.

If Israel needs that propping up, the privileged west needs to demand the separation of church and state – instead of the continuing primacy of idiotic religious bigotry.   And then the government can get on with governing for all.

If Israel needs that propping up, the privileged west needs to demand the separation of church and state

What is the established church in Israel?

Do you believe the Jews are just a bunch of people that have the same religion? Like Jehovahs Witnesses or Buddhists?

It’s an idea that is as ill thought out as introducing democracy to Iraq.

The problem was not trying to introduce democracy – the problem was trying to impose it from the outside using a bunch of stooges and having wilfully destroyed the institutions of the Iraqi administrative state. But that is another story.

And Israel can’t be expected to have the same values as European countries?

Sure they can….

No it can’t, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.

@Chevychase – the west props up plenty of countries that are not secularist. You are not being rational here but displaying the cultural arrogance of the early 2000s west, you cannot enforce secularism on the middle east – either on Jewish, Christian or Muslim populations. It doesn’t work and any attempt to do this will limit western voices in the region will not be heard.

At the end of the day Israel has played it’s cards well with Russia, India China – and could quite easily replace American support should it require. It’s not 1967 anymore.

The problem was not trying to introduce democracy – the problem was trying to impose it from the outside using a bunch of stooges and having wilfully destroyed the institutions of the Iraqi administrative state.

No, the problem was we removed the last link to secularist Arab nationalism and upon removing them – unlike in Germany where we graded Nazis and their sympathisers using a 5 tier classification method and then ruthlessly denazified the country by levelling sanctions based on the classification of the individual…..we just let the majority of baathist leadership swan off into the distance to come back and haunt us or terrorise other Iraqi political players.

On top of that, we upset most of the other regional players.

@dancingkitty said: Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!

There’s something deeply suspicious about a brand new account diving right into one of the most contentious, political, off-topic threads on this forum.

@dancingkitty, you joined the forum 3 days ago and this is the only thread you’ve posted on.  Forgive my scepticism, but we’ve had similar posters appear before and suddenly become prolific on political or other contentious threads who have turned out to be AI programs. What brought you to stw specifically?

Oh no.

Maybe I’m Mossad, come to crack down on the incitement to use fat bikes and single speeders.

No it can’t, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.

Nonsense.

It doesn’t need the “rest of the region” to ascribe to secularism.   Israel needs fixing.  Pointing at other countries and going “they’re the same” does nothing to advance that.

That’s the sort of bull that was spouted when we were trying to end apartheid in South Africa.    But at least in SA they couldn’t just turn off all the water on all the blacks like the Israeli government has decided to do.

Secularism is necessary advancement.   If Israel wants to be anything other than a hateful pit of religious bigotry, then that’s the way the cookie crumbles.  The lack of secularism IS the security threat.

That’s a piss poor deflection. Again. What brought you to stw specifically?

we just let the majority of baathist leadership swan off into the distance to come back and haunt us or terrorise other Iraqi political players.

Thats basically the exact opposite of what went wrong.
A whole lot of people were given the boot including losing pensions for being baathists from all parts of the public service including the military.
It was also done incompetently so those being sacked could take home stuff from work such as computers, photos of them with Saddam or maybe an AK-47 or two.
Your description of de-nazification is also rather simplistic and seems to be more the US model than British who pretty much ignored the low level workers.

Bicycles, wood burners, porsches and networking with other dentists.

When does the waterboarding start?

A whole lot of people were given the boot including losing pensions for being baathists from all parts of the public service including the military.

Precisely. You either do it properly or not all and keep people in place.

And Israel can’t be expected to have the same values as European countries?

Sure they can….

No it can’t, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.

Well I admire your honesty. It must have something to do with with all those Arabs in the region, they don’t understand democracy and religious freedom.

So democracy and religious freedom would pose a “security threat to Israel”?

And any democracy and religious freedom should be strictly restricted for Israelis? See the above video.

The similarities between apartheid South Africa and apartheid Israel grow with everyday (although South African apartheid was incompatibly less brutal).

South Africa under apartheid had democracy, but only for very few people. They argued, much as the argument above, how many African countries are democratic? According to them black people don’t understand democracy, they are too backward. I guess, like Arabs.

Few people like to admit it but racism goes to the very heart of the Palestinian question. Racism and injustice.

I’m not stating that Ernie, I’m starting that only a two state solution is currently feasible given the political climate in the whole region. You can’t force people to live together under one state, the Balkans are a fine example of that.

Palestinians would be free to pursue democracy in a two state solutions, they would also be free not to.

No waterboarding yet. Curious about your riding history though as you haven’t introduced yourself anywhere else on the forum. Satisfy my curiosity, where are you based and what trails do you ride?  Maybe on a new thread so as not to derail this one.

Swinley, North Wales, Wharncouver and Greno mostly.

@dancingkitty
Bicycles, wood burners, porsches and networking with other dentists.

When does the waterboarding start?

Ah, right. So you’re a sock-puppet account belonging to another poster.

Worst case scenario, the IDF go into northern Gaza and start a killing spree, would there actually be any consequences for Israel? Could any of Netanyahu’s government actually be charged with war crimes?

I’m sure the mods can work that out looking at my IP.

Not worth it @blokeuptheroad, just stay on-topic

Fair enough, last word on the matter but I won’t be engaging with a poster whose motives (or even existence in a biological sense) I doubt.

Something really fishy about the syntax, deflection etc. We had exactly the same early on the Ukraine thread and it turned out to be a bot account. The writing style is strikingly similar.

Worst case scenario, the IDF go into northern Gaza and start a killing spree

The worst case scenario in the Middle East is that Iran, Saudia Arabia, the UAE, and Israel end up in a nuclear holocaust. TBF, the really worst case scenario is that it escalates into a global nuclear holocaust, but the prospect of a Middle-eastern one should chill anyone who has witnessed the death spiral we’ve seen this week, even if it’s not literally the worst case scenario of how this ends.

defo bot lol.

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Free Member paranoia. Go on and signup (Mark really needs the coin) as that will really confuse them.