Another war in Palestine

I find it slightly baffling that the west (USA and Europe) are so vocal in their support of modern Israel. It feels to me like its just tipping fuel on an already unstable fire.

It is about the region being vital to the US and Europe, there are no similar concerns about the rest of the African continent.

The Western government support for Israel is nothing more than political posturing. The UK has announced that it is giving military assistance to Israel, as Israel launches its attack on 2 million mostly unarmed civilians.

Militarily Israel is one of the most powerful nations on earth, yesterday Israeli warplanes were bombing Syria, Israel certainly don’t need any military assistance from the UK.

Edit: No not warplanes…… Israel launched a missile strike on Syria yesterday.

So, what is the worst case scenario here?

I’m happy to go on the record to utterly condemn Netanyahu’s govts actions.

Same here, it sickens me.

So, what is the worst case scenario here?

I have a horrible feeling we’re about to find out

The hardliners in the Israeli government are playing right into Hamas hands with their (over)reaction. If whats about to happen is as bad as we all now expect, then the entire middle east could erupt as a reaction.

This is what Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the nutters in Iran all want, because in their eyes this will give them a sense of legitimacy which they will then ruthlessly exploit and they’re all absolutely ****ing mental!

Tin foil hat time.

I don’t think it needs a tin foil hat to see how events have played out here. Iran and Qatar don’t want Israel and Saudi Arabia to normalise their relationship, and anticipating Netanyahu’s over-reaction would be if they directed Hamas to launch hugely violent attacks within Israel went ahead – with scant regard to effect that they undoubtly knew that would have on the civilians of Gaza. And so they have been proved completely right.

neither Netanyahu or Hamas want peace, it serves neither of their needs. Bastards

The end of this will be an abhorrent act. I think the two sides are so entrenched in their positions, smoke being blown up their arses from their respective supporters that it’s impossible to solve.

Violence begets more violence, thus jusitifying ever increasing levels of action.

The young Palestinian girl injured, crying, reminded me of my own niece. I cried last night when I saw this..

This is not right, civilians shall not be legitimate targets for either side.

Hamas knew exactly what the response would be

The Israeli state as responded just as Hamas thought they would.  And there is civilian casualties on both sides.

Hamas could, of course, not attacked.

Those guys in the photo – Naturei Karta – are a tiny subgroup of a religious fringe. Like all extremists, they are absolutely bonkers

And the message on the placards ?  The main point of this particular photo. Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.

How about this one ? anyone here you consider unfit to deliver such a message ?

This is what Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the nutters in Iran all want

I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don’t understand what they want exactly? My mind can’t comprehend what is going on, much like what has/is happening in Ukraine. The world really is in a very perilous state right now.

I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don’t understand what they want exactly?

They’re not shy of letting everyone know exactly what they want: the complete destruction of the state of Israel

Nothing less. And they couldn’t give a flying **** what has to happen and how many people have to die to achieve that. You are not dealing with rational people here. We are talking about the most extreme of extremists

The main point of this particular photo. Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.

Alf Dubs, Jewish Holocaust survivor, at the Labour Party Conference a couple of days ago:

Special thanks also to Lord @AlfDubs for showing his support for a #FreePalestine pic.twitter.com/2shxJJZY52

— PSC (@PSCupdates) October 9, 2023

(Second photo)

The Israeli politicians have done a great job of making Israel and Judaism one and the same. Now obviously Israel was created as a Jewish state but the Israeli government have convinced people that to criticise Israel is to criticise Judaism. Ergo any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.

So much so that a practicing Jew was accused of being antisemitic for criticising Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/20/jewish-woman-accused-antisemitism-labour-threatens-sue-anti-zionism

Regarding Israel being able to commit genocide and get away with it. The West needs someone to carry out their dirty work in Iran. Giving Israel a get out of jail free card.

Long story short Hamas are dicks for killing Israelis and Israel are dicks for killing Palestinians. Just wish someone had the answer.

I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don’t understand what they want exactly?

Once heard the shout of ‘god is great’ before a tricky job. Looking at the aftermath it didn’t look or feel so great for them but the ones that sold them the plan weren’t there. They were sat in a compound on aid money that had been paid to them by a local governer.

Powerful people wanting wealth, control and influence sending others do to the hard yards to gain and maintain that.

Some wear uniforms, some wear rags.

Just wish someone had the answer.

There is an answer but it’s **** ugly.

Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.

How about this one ? anyone here you consider unfit to deliver such a message ?

You have literally picked another photo of the exact same extremist bonkers fringe group. Look at the sign he is holding up – http://www.nkusa.org . The only reason anyone knows these guys is because they show up in full black hat gear to demonstrations and the occasional holocaust denial conference.

This a wildly distorting way to illustrate a statistic on mainstream US Jewish opinion. I would hate to see what your Google search term history looks like…

https://www.haaretz.com/2007-01-07/ty-article/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israels-destruction-in-peaceful-ways/0000017f-f69e-d5bd-a17f-f6bee8660000

Hamas want to wipe out Israel. This has been repeatedly stated and is clear from their (repeated) actions.

The unfortunate reality is that Israel will now go into Gaza to fight Hamas head-on, but it’s the unfortunate civilians of Gaza that will take the massive hit.

It’s important to recognise that Hamas isn’t ‘the Palestinians’. Hamas is a relatively small group of terrorist fundamentalists who control the people of Gaza by force, and have now started a proper war with Israel.

Is anyone placed to help the Palestinians in Gaza? Will the rest of the Middle East sit on their hands and do nothing?

You have literally picked another photo of the exact same extremist bonkers fringe group. Look at the sign he is holding up

Any you’ve come up with the exact same interpretation. Jews must be pro Israel, because such and such in the pic is an extremist.

I did ask you to take note of the placards.

I would hate to see what your Google search term history looks like…

Simple, I’ll tell you so you dont have to speculate or throw out more personal insults and attacks. I googled ‘Jews against Zionism’

I know of this because pal Ralph is Jewish and he’s often spoken on how detrimental Zionism is to his faith

But whatever. you knock yourself out with whatever interpretation you see fit.

Will the rest of the Middle East sit on their hands and do nothing?

They’re not known for their support to one another unless it furthers their interests.

It might be one reason why the place is a tinder box of ongoing ****.

So yeah, they’re gonna do what they always do.

Feel like the west should be less supportive and more critical friend, we’re enabling them through mealy mouthed support.

They’re the punchy bloke in the pub and we’re feeding them pints then acting surprised when they glass the barmaid.

The only reason anyone knows these guys is because they show up in full black hat gear to demonstrations and the occasional holocaust denial conference.

This is very confusing. From the link which you posted:

Friedman explained his trip to Tehran as reflecting his desire to “show my respect to the members of my family who died in the Holocaust”

So the guy who says members of his family died in the Holocaust you claim is a Holocaust denier?

Anyway nutters aside Lord Alf Dubs is definitely a Holocaust survivor and he is definitely happy to hold a “Free Palestine” placard.

And here is some American mainstream Jewish opinion concerning Israel, if you haven’t already seen it.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/24/american-jews-critical-israeli-settlements-west-bank

Anyway nutters aside Lord Alf Dubs is definitely a Holocaust survivor and he is definitely happy to hold a “Free Palestine” placard.

Then let’s leave the example as that and try not to distract with personal arguments.

Jews must be pro Israel, because such and such in the pic is an extremist.

No-one has said this. Just that repeatedly using photos of the same bonkers fundamentalists that associate with holocaust deniers is a very weird way to illustrate a fact about mainsteam US Jewish public opinion.

It is also darkly funny that you tried to find a photo of a different group of people to illustrate the same point about mainstream US Jewish opinion…and instead came back with a different photo of the same tiny group of people! In fact, a tiny group of people who are pretty much only known for being anti-Zionist fundamentalist Jews and being brought into the conversation by critics of Israel. They are a meme.

Will the rest of the Middle East sit on their hands and do nothing?

The only one that really has a dog in this fight is Iran, which is a morally bankrupt theocracy too busy ruthlessly oppressing its own population at the moment to get involved. They’d always stop short of direct involvement anyway for fear of US reprisals

The rest of them are all corrupt, self-serving dictatorships who couldn’t give a toss about their own citizens, let alone the Palestinians. They’ll pay lip service to them but they’ll do nothing more than that. They have no interest in anything but shoring up their own power and keeping the oil taps turned on to keep themselves in the lifestyles to which they’ve become accustomed

I suspect they will be getting ready for any unrest from their own populations which this might provoke, so they can brutally put it down, as always

Jews must be pro Israel, because such and such in the pic is an extremist.

But you have to admit, that once you know that this is a group of ultra orthodox that believe that Israel is an affront to God and must be destroyed, that’s not the same as whether you think that the idea that in order to make sure Jews are safe, a homeland “as a thing” is right or wrong.

I mean get any group of Jews together and you’ll have every opinion on everything, that’s baked in. Occasionally The Jews for Jesus turn up outside the Schul, flogging their ideas. Some folks just don’t represent, y’kno?

Just that repeatedly using photos of the same bonkers fundamentalists

Aren’t they just deeply religious Jews?

How much things have changed that a country which was artificially created for people to live freely and follow the Jewish religion, now has a population in which over three-quarters don’t consider themselves to be religious, and devoutly religious Jews are condemned!

What exactly is the purpose of Israel today? To provide a home for those who fancy living in a Western enclave in the Middle East, like warm weather, and can make a claim that their ancestors lived there a couple of thousand years ago?

All the while ignoring the fact that the previous/current occupants of the land had/have been living there uninterrupted for the last couple of thousand years.

The Jews for Jesus

They have a church/synagogue/temple whatever they call them, in South Croydon, I cycle past it at least once a week.

They totally fascinate me and I would like love to talk to them. They believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and I know that JC was Jewish, but I don’t understand why they don’t call themselves Christians.

If they want to carry on as things were before his coming what is the point of celebrating his arrival?

Btw Jesus was a top Jew who believed in loving your neighbour, I can’t provide any photos but I am sure that he would hold a “Free Palestine” placard.

The rest of them are all corrupt, self-serving dictatorships who couldn’t give a toss about their own citizens, let alone the Palestinians.

That is not entirely true. Lebanon is not a dictatorship, and has about half a million Palestinian refugees and its southern territory controlled by Hezbollah and a sliver by Israel, so it is not like the Palestinian issue is a mere talking point for them. Jordan is a constitutional monarchy (with “monarchy” definitely being the more important word, but there are imperfect elections and political parties), and also millions of Palestinian refugees. And Yemen and Libya are not dictatorships at all, but something much worse.

So, what is the worst case scenario here?

A Palestinian “final solution”, a refugee crisis on a scale we have never seen, massive regional war between Israel and Syria / Iran which turns into a proxy war between Russia (Iran / Syria) and the West (Israel), largely neutral countries drawn into the war (Egypt, Iraq), more suicide bombers, lone wolves, stabby stabby types in Western cities etc.

 that a country which was artificially created

Is this not true as every other country that has ever existed? I mean some of the surrounding states to Israel, are equally brand new, some of them preceding Israel only by a few decades

What exactly is the purpose of Israel today?

Why must Israel have a purpose? I don’t think you’d ask the same of I dunno, Canada or Norway would you? Other than to allow the citizens of that country to say “This is home” what’s the point of any country?

but I don’t understand why they don’t call themselves Christians.

I’ve no idea honestly, I’ve never really spoken to them when they show up, they’re a bit too ‘enthusiastic’ for my taste.

I googled ‘Jews against Zionism’

The problem here is that you’ve selected pictures of just one, tiny fringe group as others have pointed out, who are not representative of the wider Jewish diaspora, nor even of those who are opposed to the Israeli regime and its actions. NK are a bunch of ultra-fundamentalist nutjobs. Even the ultra-orthodox Chasidic communities of Europe and the USA mostly view them as dangerous lunatics. Read up on their links to far-right fascist and neo-Nazi organisations.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/176867
The big problem with NK is that they regularly turn up at pro-Palestinian rallies and demonstrations, and are welcomed by ignorant and naive people who see them as ‘nice Jews’ who are opposed to the oppression of the Palestinian people. They really aren’t. They’re just exploiting that for their own ends. They often take donations from unsuspecting and otherwise probably quite decent people, to further aid their madness. See them as like something like the BNP or Britain First etc; their existence ultimately undermines and threatens the very thing they claim to want to protect.
As for said pro-Palestinian demonstrations and groups; most are run by and for left-wing liberals, who abhor oppression and violence. However, sadly, some groups have been infiltrated and overrun by virulent anti-Semites. My wife and I once did a charity bike ride in aid of Gaza, that was led by an individual who turned out to be such an anti-Semite (he’d bang on about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and ‘Rothschild Zionism’ and other such tired old anti-Semitic tropes); he’s now a full on anti-vax conspiracy theorist lunatic. He was a big fan of NK. All this has made it very difficult for genuine pro-peace groups to co-ordinate efforts to lobby against Israeli oppression. Without wanting to stray into conspiracy theories myself, I wouldn’t be amazed if there weren’t agents acting for governments as agents provocateurs to deliberately undermine such movements. The propaganda war is just as dirty and nasty as actual war.

Hamas is a relatively small group of terrorist fundamentalists who control the people of Gaza by force,

Last time I checked Hamas were the elected government of Palestine. By the usage of words above this is an equivalence that the Netanyahu’s team is a similar government. We’ve watched 70 years of this rubbish and each time a different result is expected from the same reactions.

The leaders of both factions are technically criminally insane.

Please don’t go down this path, ernie. The thread really doesn’t need it.

The Jews are an ethnoreligous group: separately a people and a religion.

This isn’t true:

All the while ignoring the fact that the previous/current occupants of the land had/have been living there uninterrupted for the last couple of thousand years.

And this is dangerous:

What exactly is the purpose of Israel today?

Artificially created

All states are artificially created through blood and tears, every single one. Zionism was solidified by middle Eastern pogroms of Jews starting in the late 1930s with the pro-axis Iraqi government under the influence of Fritz Grobba. Things like this fueled Mizrahi Jewish Zionism along with the pogroms that were happening in Palestine at the time and then the actions of Europe sealed the trajectory of Zionism. Israel is as natural as any state that has been formed through blood and shared identity.

I don’t condone the actions of the Netanyahu government and Israeli settlers but none of you should be under any illusion about the prospect of peace whilst Hamas exists – Hamas are not about Gazan liberation but the destruction of Israel. No amount of reverting to older borders will bring peace in this scenario, Hamas will continue to be an existential threat to Jewish people in Israel.

Unfortunately regime change needs to occur and the Israelis need to de-hamas Gaza like the west did in occupied Germany and Imperial Japan. This is the only way alternative Palestinian political voices can be heard. Israel then needs a change of government, that is interested in post war reconciliation and contrition.

Last time I checked Hamas were the elected government of Palestine

The last time I checked, the tories were the elected government of the United Kingdom. That doesn’t mean we all support them, just that an actual minority of all people in the UK voted them into power. Ergo, Hamas are no more ‘representative’ of the Palestinian people than the tories are of British people.

It’s worth pointing out that the last parliamentary elections held in Gaza were in 2006. Hamas won 3% more votes than Fatah. But to imagine anything approaching real democracy exists in a nation under foreign oppression, is a fantasy. Support for Hamas has been declining, and I imagine it’s pretty low right now.

Is this not true as every other country that has ever existed? I mean some of the surrounding states to Israel, are equally brand new

Oh absolutely, I am certainly not saying that other countries haven’t been created artificially. You just need to look at all those lovely straight lines created by colonial planners drawing up borders!

(Some countries evolve more organically)

But they are always created with a purpose in mind. My question is what is Israel’s purpose today?

After the liberation of Auschwitz it seemed obvious. But it is less obvious to me now.

Does a Jew from New York or London really need to flee persecution and to live in freedom have to force a Palestinian from his home?

Last time I checked Hamas were the elected government of Palestine

They were elected in 2006. There haven’t been any elections since then

To be fair, particularly after the last 13 years, I’d be more than happy to have the same government we had in 2006.

I doubt many Palestinians would feel the same though. The point is we’ll never know because Hamas had no intention of allowing any more of this ‘democracy’ lark once they’d assumed power

@dancingkitty I recommend watching the video dyna-ti posted a few pages back. It follows it through from before the Balfour Declaration in 1917. It’s a bit one-sided but the timeline is good.

Plenty of Jews need to flee persecution, both in the Arab world and Europe/Russia. Look at what is happening in Italy, look at France, look at the batshit insanity in Russia where Jews are being labelled as anti-Russian/Nazi sympathisers. Far right movements are on the rise as are extremist Muslim movements in European countries that have seen high levels of migration.

Yes, Israel had more practical use for Jewish diaspora immediately post war. However, what countries would be happy to take on millions of Jewish migrants should the destruction of Israel occur Ernie? Which of those countries can be trusted? Post Trump America? Far right Italy? Germany?My suggestion would be that the UK is likely the only country.

I have ended up in a couple of scraps with people who realised I had Jewish heritage and that’s in the UK – one of the most tolerant countries in the world.

@benos, I have updated my wording to add clarity to what I was getting at. Apologies, I am writing from my phone – IMO yes Zionism existed well before the Balfour declaration but the events of the late twenties (eg the Hebron massacre) and thirties and finally the holocaust sealed the trajectory of the movement and polarised many Jewish doubters of Zionism into support.