Another war in Palestine

Some people just can’t understand, their hatred lack of insight is all consuming.

Israel have behaved appallingly at times but for me its now clear it doesn’t matter what they do or have done they would still be targeted by butchers who’s only goal is to murder them.

That’s where I ended up after many years. The sentiment of “from the river to the sea” has never been far away.

I’ve explained why the term ‘Islamist’ is offensive, to me at least. I’d just like people to take a moment to consider that.

You may well find it offensive (there’s no accounting for taste) but no-one is seeking to offend you. “Islamist” is just the English cognate of “Islamiyya”, used in Arabic political discourse to denote a specifically political Islam. It does not conflate all Muslims – quite the opposite – it’s specifically identifying those who see Islam as not just a religious, but also worldly political, movement.

Have you considered why that might be? Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?

Well, there was that time when Christian fundamentalists slaughtered thousands of non-believers in the heart of the “West”. And then that time a generation before when millions were killed in the “West” because they weren’t Christian. But not this weekend, I suppose.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Just sounds like a load of whataboutism to me Ernie.

And low tech methods of killing people, seriously is that what you’re calling this? Its unimaginable cruelty. Low tech would be your typical bomb in a crowded place or just gunning people down. Theres even a tiny part of my psyche that can put myself in the shoes of an oppressed freedom fighter with nothing to lose where killing the enemy like that could be almost ‘justified’, but nothing that could lead me to imagine what kind of hatred for life that leads to the horrors we’ve just seen. No I just dont see an equivalency between how the 2 sides go about murdering each other quite frankly.

How about this horrible thought experiment, would you rather you or your family suffered the fate of an oppressed Palestinian, at best a much diminished life, at worst taken out by a bomb or bullet meant for your terrorist government. Or would you rather the fate worse than death suffered by many Israelis at the weekend, and still to come once hostages start getting tortured and killed on camera? I’m quite sure all those hostages held by Israel aren’t about to find themselves dying horrifically on social media.

Of course dead is dead, but I know whose fate I’d prefer, just whilst we’re discussing equivalancy.

Were ISIS justified in their barbarism? Of course not. Any whataboutism or justification for Hamas ‘tactics’ has now left the table never to return, there is no way back.

there is no way back

Let’s hope that for the sake of the civilians on both sides that there is some way out of this.

As for comparing methods of killing, what do you think it’s like to be on the receiving end of an airstrike, people dying in agony over days with limbs ripped off, guts literally hanging out and with no realistic medical aid.  I’m not excusing Hamas but they’ve witnessed this over and over again, brutalising them.

Let’s hope that for the sake of the civilians on both sides that there is some way out of this.

The civilians in Gaza have nowhere to go. They’re in an open prison. They can’t leave. Where are they supposed to go? Into the sea?

Its just said on the news that the one power station in Gaza has just shut down so there is now no power and no water. This means there is now no medical facilities for what I’m sure is going to be a huge number of casualties. Its absolute inhumanity

If you didn’t see the coverage on channel 4 news last night of what its like at the moment in Gaza, its absolutely horrific. I just can’t see any justification for the collective punishment of a population of over 2 million in this way. Its

https://x.com/channel4news/status/1711821708993126739?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ

This means there is now no medical facilities for what I’m sure is going to be a huge number of casualties.

whilst savage, it probably doesn’t mean that. Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.

@mrdavids

I just dont see an equivalency between how the 2 sides go about murdering each other quite frankly

Yep.  Unfortunately, you’ve sided with the well funded politically immune apartheid state which is running a prison camp for more than two million people whilst encouraging their military and their population to murder the inmates.
Horror is horror.  We know what the solution is (I posted it overleaf) but nobody is going to bite that bullet.  Thinking of the Palestinians as inmates of an open concentration-camp (who’ve just had their water supply, energy and all medical supplies turned off by the prison guards, regardless of their involvement) is more illustrative than your false equivalency thought experiment.

Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.

Most hospitals in Europe don’t have their fuel supply cut off by a belligerent neighbour.

Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.

Apparently they do have back up generators, but being effectively blockaded by Israel for years they’re old, inefficient and dilapidated and likely to run out of fuel.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gaza-hospitals-struggle-cope-israel-cuts-electricity

Dont know if this helps or not, but truth is none of us bar one or two really knows the historical timeline of the conflict.

“Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.”
Due to the long running blockade by Israel and Egypt there’s likely to be little or no fuel for any back up generator.

Edit beaten to it by Dr J

No religion deserves a homeland of it’s own.

Open a history book.

No religion deserves a homeland of it’s own.

Open a history grammar book.

😉

Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.”

Backup generators are only supposed to cover interruptions to mains power (hence “backup”), not a siege. You’d need a gigantic amount of diesel hanging around to keep a hospital powered for a long period. And you would need the technicians to run it. And you would need the hospitals not to be struck by missiles. And you would need the ambulances not to be destroyed and the paramedics not killed. And you would need the water and supplies to run the hospital.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-strikes-neighborhood-after-neighborhood-gaza-war-appears-103883379
https://www.msf.org/hospitals-are-overwhelmed-catastrophic-situation-gaza

Just sounds like a load of whataboutism to me Ernie.

That comment reveals so much. This is obviously a conflict involving two sides, but you want to focus on discussing the actions of only one side.

The idea that you can discuss half the problem is ridiculous, as is ignoring the root causes of the conflict and what continues to persistently fuel it.

The only whataboutism which I would suggest is how about not ignoring the inconvenient stuff which you would rather not talk about?

Which is of course that Israel is an apartheid state, a crime against humanity under international law, and that the Palestinian people are a repressed people who have been denied justice for decades due to the horrific crimes committed by Europeans against Jews.

European crimes against Jews which were far worse than anything that is currently happening. How did the ovens in Auschwitz compare with medieval butchery?

@kelvin

Open a history book.

That’s not an argument.

Tell me why any religion – every one of which is nothing more than a nonsensical collection of plagarised ideas (it’s not a people) – deserves a “homeland”.

And even if historically you can show that a religion had one, given todays intellectual understanding of what religion is (i.e. nonsense that kids see right through, until brow (or physically) beaten by their parents into shutting up – and the biggest source of war, conflict and intolerance that humans have managed to invent) why we should continue to put up with such bullshit, rather than do things differently.

Separation of church and state.  Secular government.  Freedom of religion for all – and government for all.   Not just some arbitrarily special few based on which sky-fairy they follow – with separate laws for people who weren’t born into that particular brand of asshattery.

<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;” />@brownperson this is as true of you as it is of anyone else here.

This was the first thing you said on this thread, without any condemnation of Hamas’s brutal actions:

Hamas militants rarely venture far into Israeli territory, and seldom with such vigour and speed. But these attacks only mirror what Palestinians have been enduring for decades; midnight raids, beatings, torture etc. To those only speaking of Hamas’ atrocities, I’d ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF? This is one of the most one-sided conflicts in history, and the tactics being used by Hamas have been learned undoubtedly from their Israeli oppressors. The rape of women, the murder of children; Israeli forces know all about that.

You went straight to accusations and whataboutery, ie justification, saying exactly what’s been said before to try to justify each new cycle of violence. Then a few pages later claimed that no one had been doing that!

I can accept that you have a different opinion to mine. What, I can’t, and won’t accept, is your attempt to create a false narrative of what I have said (or not), to reinforce your own argument. I didn’t leap ‘straight to whataboutery’, as you and others seem so willing to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of; I merely pointed out the fact that these attacks mirror what the Israeli military has also been guilty of. You cannot then accuse me of trying to ‘justify’ any violence; in subsequent posts I have condemned the actions of these Hamas militants/terrorists, and I continue to do so. I think it goes without saying that any decent human being would condemn such brutality. But it also goes without saying that any decent human being would condemn the brutality that preceded these acts. I’m sure yourself and certain others would prefer it if everyone focussed only on the actions of Hamas and not the Israeli government and military, but you don’t get to dictate how other people think and what opinions they hold. You don’t get to tell us what we can and cannot say. You can have whatever opinions and thoughts about me you so choose, I have no control over that. But should you choose to voice those opinions in a public arena such as this forum, then you risk staying into the territory of defamation and slander. So please consider this.

<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;” />@brownperson this is as true of you as it is of anyone else here.

This was the first thing you said on this thread, without any condemnation of Hamas’s brutal actions:

Hamas militants rarely venture far into Israeli territory, and seldom with such vigour and speed. But these attacks only mirror what Palestinians have been enduring for decades; midnight raids, beatings, torture etc. To those only speaking of Hamas’ atrocities, I’d ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF? This is one of the most one-sided conflicts in history, and the tactics being used by Hamas have been learned undoubtedly from their Israeli oppressors. The rape of women, the murder of children; Israeli forces know all about that.

You went straight to accusations and whataboutery, ie justification, saying exactly what’s been said before to try to justify each new cycle of violence. Then a few pages later claimed that no one had been doing that!

I can accept that you have a different opinion to mine. What, I can’t, and won’t accept, is your attempt to create a false narrative of what I have said (or not), to reinforce your own argument. I didn’t leap ‘straight to whataboutery’, as you and others seem so willing to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of; I merely pointed out the fact that these attacks mirror what the Israeli military has also been guilty of. You cannot then accuse me of trying to ‘justify’ any violence; in subsequent posts I have condemned the actions of these Hamas militants/terrorists, and I continue to do so. I think it goes without saying that any decent human being would condemn such brutality. But it also goes without saying that any decent human being would condemn the brutality that preceded these acts. I’m sure yourself and certain others would prefer it if everyone focussed only on the actions of Hamas and not the Israeli government and military, but you don’t get to dictate how other people think and what opinions they hold. You don’t get to tell us what we can and cannot say. You can have whatever opinions and thoughts about me you so choose, I have no control over that. But should you choose to voice those opinions in a public arena such as this forum, then you risk staying into the territory of defamation and slander. So please consider this.

You may well find it offensive (there’s no accounting for taste) but no-one is seeking to offend you. “Islamist” is just the English cognate of “Islamiyya”, used in Arabic political discourse to denote a specifically political Islam. It does not conflate all Muslims – quite the opposite – it’s specifically identifying those who see Islam as not just a religious, but also worldly political, movement.

Thanks for your thoughts, and your rather patronising attempt to explain to me something I already know, but intent or not is irrelevant when it comes to an individual being offended. I have explained exactly why I find the term offensive, so please acknowledge this rather than simply ignoring why I’ve said it. The use of such a term in Western media and discourse particularly, is very different to its use within Islam. In the case of Western media, it is very much a pejorative term. I am well aware than some Muslim commentators might use the term in the Western context themselves, but we aren’t all one homogeneous group when it comes to sensibilities and ideology.
—————-

So at what point is it appropriate to talk about genocide? I’m sure Hamas would love to give it a go but there’s a big difference between wanting to do it and having the means to and going through with it. I guess we’ll know in a few days time after the water runs out.

“UK to deploy Royal Navy ships to support Israel”

Sigh…. How about “UK deploys Royal Navy to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza”?

For sale, hardly used, one Government issue moral compass 😟

Genocide – ‘Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly’.

See you in International Court Netanyahu.

Thank you Mods.

So come on lads, behave, and discuss.

Maybe our govt. and an initiative for a humanitarian aid corridor? I’ve only got a 10yr old renault master, but if it would do any good I’d be off to Go Outdoors tomorrow and off to Gaza the day after. Need a convoy 2 miles long to make a difference and there’d probably be nothing left by the time it got there. But, sentiments, and all that.

There of course of a humanitarian crisis currently developing as the result of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

The Israeli side has reasonable access to medical supplies and the means to finance whatever is required.

In contrast for the Palestinians the situation is extremely dire in terms of medical supplies and the resources to pay for whatever is needed.

Medical Aid for Palestinians have long done excellent work to provide humanitarian aid for the Palestinians.

Medical Aid for Palestinians works in partnership with the United Nations and is supported by the EU and the UK government.

If anyone wants to support the vital work MAP desperately needs to currently do in Gaza here is the link :

https://www.map.org.uk/

Ernie – I’ve done a number of charity bike rides for MAP over the years. A great organisation and they have historically navigated the politics of the situation with great skill and composure.

MAP gave me a great excuse to charity mtb ride 500km in 7 days just over 10 years ago, a very memorable week.

Thanks @ernielynch, and for your endorsement @bennyboy1

Donating now.

Medecins sans Frontieres are also very active.

Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?

Well, there’s a Christian Nationalist cult doing its damndest to turn North America into a fundamentalist theocracy at the moment, and openly talking about murdering anyone who stands in their way. They’ve already attempted armed insurrection, so make of that what you will.

Nobody seems to have seen the news report earlier this evening showing how Hamaas carried out their attacks, and it was very sophisticated, showing that they’ve been paying very close attention to what Ukraine has been doing against Russia. They used drones to bomb the gun emplacements on the fence towers, blew huge holes in the fences, flew fighters over the fences using parawings, and used big diggers to shove clear fallen parts of the fence so that armed groups on dirt bikes could enter. It was incredibly well planned, and followed the initial massed rocket attacks that the Iron Dome system seemed unable to counteract.

Israel seems to have seriously underestimated what Hamaas is capable of planning and carrying out, and now they’re reaping the whirlwind.

Right about now is when Netanyahu should be removed from office, forcibly if necessary, and a rational government installed.

Genocide

I’m not sure genocide is a fair descriptive, but ethnic cleansing certainly is.

.

Im finding this all very distressing. Our own governments quick to criticize Russian invasion of Ukraine, are now siding with war crimes and those against humanity.

Hamas should be brought to justice for sure, but Israel also.

Our own governments quick to criticize Russian invasion of Ukraine

It wasn’t really, though. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, and the UK did very little. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and the UK did nothing.

Meanwhile, part of an email I received from a women’s clothing collective in Ramallah and Bethlehem:

thank you to those of you who have been placing orders, knowing we have no way to ship them as roads are blocked and services are down. We have started packaging orders and are waiting for services to resume and will update you as soon as something changes.

Lastly, and most importantly, here is a link to many trusted organizations aiding Palestinians on the ground in the West Bank and in Gaza. The page also includes organizations to help with understanding and learning about the Palestinian narrative.

https://buildpalestine.com/2021/05/15/trusted-organizations-to-donate-to-palestine/

We will keep you updated and send lots of love from Palestine.

the Nol Collective family x

As in Ukraine, donating to organisations that help ordinary people and spending money with grassroots businesses is the best way to support vulnerable people.

Good so far. If we go easy on the rhetoric and accusations, and heavier on the aid solutions, we’ll maybe justify re-opening this thread and repay some faith from the mods 👍

Israel seems to have seriously underestimated what Hamaas is capable of planning and carrying out

Yup, what appears to have surprised a lot of people in Israeli intelligence failure. My understanding is that Israeli intelligence is generally excellent.

There are a lot of extremely desperate people in the Occupied Territories, and 40% of Palestinian men have at some point been held prisoner by the Israeli military.

So Israel has long been able to find sufficient Palestinians to pressurise into providing them with vital information from within Gaza.

This has proved to have been a huge problem for Hamas in the past and it has regularly executed those which it finds guilty of being Israeli agents (including no doubt innocent individuals, as is always the case in these scenarios).

Obviously the totally unexpected attack, which was of huge unprecedented magnitude and sophistication, suggests that Israel’s intelligence gathering failed spectacularly.

Either Hamas has massively increased its security, which I find difficult to believe considering the size of the operation and the population density of Gaza, or Israel’s spy network has been compromised by double agents, or people are simply too scared or otherwise unwilling to spy for Israel.

Either way it represents a huge setback for Israel.

Hamas should be brought to justice for sure, but Israel also.

It’s not just Israel now. Western governments have essentially given the green light to the extermination of an entire people. Whether we like it or not we’re all implicated in this now. If we don’t want this hanging round our necks for the next century we can only hope that sense prevails and the siege is lifted to allow food, water, medical supplies and power to the 2 million civilians who need it to survive.

the siege is lifted to allow food, water, medical supplies and power to the 2 million civilians who need it to survive.

This is what I don’t understand, the Israeli defence minister stands before the world and declares no electricity, food, water or gas. Despite knowing full well that depriving civilians of food and water is indisputably a war crime.

https://www.france24.com/en/video/20231009-no-electricity-food-water-or-gas-israel-orders-complete-gaza-siege

How did we get to the point that one country can so publicly declare that it is about to commit a war crime?

And knowing full well that it won’t be held to account.

I wouldn’t even expect the United States to be so open, brazen, and shameless.

Several listed here:

https://time.com/6322238/how-to-help-israel-gaza-war-victims/

I have a monthly standing order to the Red Cross/Crescent (which I recommend doing) and add more for appeals.

How did we get to the point that one country can so publicly declare that it is about to commit a war crime?

It’s not a war crime if it isn’t technically a war…. Maybe a ‘special operation’.

Maybe he’s pulling the Putin/Crimea defence, as in, ‘I said it’s it’s my land, so therefore it is my land – international law does not apply, so all you’s invaders should get off it, or else!’

There are very bad actors on both ‘sides’, and as per usual it’s not the political/religious idealists that suffer, it’s just normal people and children that probably don’t give a shit and are just trying to go about thier daily lives, that suffer.

I have just seen the Israeli President in a news conference broadcast on ITN apparently claiming that civilians in Gaza are legitimate targets because “they could have rebelled against the malicious regime that took over Gaza in a coup attempt, they could have fought against it.”

So it would appear that Hamas only needs to point out that Israeli civilians are legitimate targets because they could have “rebelled” against the regime which illegally occupies Palestine.

The Israeli President also said at the press conference that Israel followed “international law” in Gaza, despite Israel openly admitting that it was stopping food and water reaching civilians.

It was like listening to Saddam Hussein’s spokesman Comical Ali giving a press conference at the start of the Iraqi, only not as funny.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-president-enraged-by-questions-on-civilian-deaths-in-gaza-at-press-conference/3017253

The Russians are asking for help in getting 400-odd Russian citizens out of Gaza. Would I be out of order hoping that they remain trapped there, and in doing so maybe understand just a little what their own government is doing in Ukraine?

Innocent children murdered in their beds by deranged murderers.
Israel responds by murdering five hundred more, mutilating their tiny bodies with high-tech weapons.
No better than Hamas. Child killers. Absolutely vile, and the UK sends them more weapons.
I’ve never been so ashamed of this country and that’s saying something.

Tell me why any religion – every one of which is nothing more than a nonsensical collection of plagarised ideas (it’s not a people) – deserves a “homeland”.

It’s not about ‘deserves’ … it’s because history shows us that without a homeland that will take in persecuted Jews, the rest of the world can’t be relied on to prevent that persecution, or to adequately take on those trying to escape it… no matter how far that persecution is taken. Now, even if you except that a Jewish state is needed (many posted here seem to think otherwise, I’m not one of them) you can still condemn outright the way that a series of right wing Israeli governments have used defence as an excuse for expansion, aggression and dehumanisation. Likewise we can condemn the Hamas instigated recent events for their horrific nature, even if we believe in a free and internationally accepted and facilitated Palestine. To say the people currently leading both sides, and many who follow and act for them, have aims and tactics that no right minded person should be supporting, does not automatically lead to a position where you claim one state or the other should not exist. I’m wary of those who jump to that conclusion. There is normally heavy prejudice involved.

Don’t read my ramblings though… read this instead:

https://www.msf.org/indiscriminate-violence-and-collective-punishment-gaza-must-cease

And donate if you can.