Another war in Palestine

From 2008 till September 2023, 6,407 Palestinians were recorded to have been killed, more than half through missile attacks. During the same period, the UN recorded the death of 308 Israelis in conflict situations.

Much as I despise the actions of Hamas, the IDF have been not exactly using a proportionate response over the years.

No power, hospital facilities, food or water in the Gaza strip, so there’s a massive humanitarian crisis created by Hamas and the IDF, again no winners in this one.

Quite a few here with luxury opinions and no skin in the game.

Best just to offer support and be quiet.

I disagree. Firstly this is about our fellow human beings, and on a pragmatic level wars in other parts of the world affect us in a number of ways. Secondly “offer support” – to who, and why, or are you suggesting basic hand-wringing “oh dear, how terrible”. Thirdly, being quiet in the face of genocide hasn’t worked in the past and is unlikely to work in the future.

Apparently it’s just a ‘don’t even think about it’ show of strength in case the Iranians are thinking of chipping in

And to aid where required the extraction of US Citizens. The US military has already been directed to provide intelligence support to aid the recovery of hostages.

 I guess they feel they have nothing left to lose at this point.

Again, this is applying a kind of belief system and primacy of self preservation that they don’t follow. They would see it as having everything to gain (eternal paradise at best, killing lots of jews at worst) rather than nothing to lose.

I disagree. Firstly this is about our fellow human beings, and on a pragmatic level wars in other parts of the world affect us in a number of ways. Secondly “offer support” – to who, and why, or are you suggesting basic hand-wringing “oh dear, how terrible”. Thirdly, being quiet in the face of genocide hasn’t worked in the past and is unlikely to work in the future.

Quite. But I would urge posters to be mindful of ‘the game looks different on the field than from the stands’ concept when posting their rhetoric.

It helps keep the shithousery to a minimum.

MrsMC’s aunt and cousins are in touch and safe – far enough north to be out of the immediate danger zone.

Her cousins kids have been called up though. Just a couple of years older than my own kids.

God knows what they’re trying to achieve

Hamas has been failing in Palestine. In 2019 and again in July and August there were protests against Hamas in Gaza by Palestinians wanting to improve their standard of living https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist
Hamas is also under threat politically from opposition groups including some affiliated with Islamic Jihad and the PLO
Their other motivation is the increasing number of peace agreements between Israel and other countries in the region, the latest being discussions with Saudi Arabia. The more peace agreements that exist, the less relevant Hamas becomes because of the external pressure on them to make peace
Neither Israel nor Hamas can win the war, 75 years of history show that, but Hamas stands to gain most from their barbarous attack
The Israeli Government decision to counter-attack may help to strengthen Hamas because Hamas will (they hope) be seen as the only group to defend Palestine. Other countries may turn away from peace agreements, which also benefits Hamas and third-party countries backing Hamas

MrsMC’s aunt and cousins are in touch and safe – far enough north to be out of the immediate danger zone.
Her cousins kids have been called up though. Just a couple of years older than my own kids.

My cousin, who lives in Israel was due to get out of there to UK with her two young kids last night but the flight was cancelled, not sure if it is war related or a consequence of Luton closing.

Again, this is applying a kind of belief system and primacy of self preservation that they don’t follow.

Just because you keep repeating something doesnt make it any more accurate than the last time you said it.
Since Hamas has been in existence since the late 80s clearly they do have some sense of self preservation that you are discounting. Their front line troops might not but those who are in senior positions do which can be demonstrated by the fact they are in senior positions and not dead several years back.

It’s depressing to see that some posters here are still choosing to focus only on Hamas, and ignore the atrocities currently being committed by the IDF. It’s clear that such people have a particular agenda to push, but this is not at all helpful; nobody here is denying the barbarism of Hamas militants/terrorists/whatever you want to call them, but it’s utterly pointless only focussing on that because it does nothing to further the discussion as to how solutions can be found.

You are completely misunderstanding Hamas. They are Islamists first and foremost who believe God will take almighty vengeance on the Jews when the apocalypse comes

I’d really like people to try not to use the term ‘Islamist’ when talking about extremist terrorists. These people are a tiny fraction of those who follow Islam, and theirs is a highly distorted version anyway. So can we stop conflating them with all other Muslims please. Because using such terms fuels the Islamophobia that has swept the western world over the last 20+ years, and helps feed into a narrative that Islam = bad. Nobody uses the terms ‘Christianism’ or ‘Jewism’ to describe extremism within those cultures.

It is encouraging to see many people taking a more objective and nuanced view of the situation. The only good to come out of this will be if people take it upon themselves to learn, and understand, more. Because that’s the only way we’re ever going to achieve any form of effective long term solution.

Well I’m glad I’ve been banned for the last few days. Nothing much to say other than the indiscriminate murder of civilians on both sides tells it’s own story. Anyone who can’t look at that with objectivity and universal horror needs to take a look at themselves. And now we have the apparent intention of a supposedly developed and enlightened nation state to starve two million people, and some people on here excuse that as a ‘tactic of war’.

Hats off to Ernie (and other lone voices) BTW for remaining calm and resolute in the face of some quite disgraceful slurs, insults and abuse. I’ve learned recently that if someone takes even mild offence at something they see on here they’ll report it and the posters will/may be banned. I’ll be taking that action on any offensive comments or abuse aimed at people who hold a balanced and objective view of this horrific situation.

I’d really like people to try not to use the term ‘Islamist’ when talking about extremist

no

Nobody uses the terms ‘Christianism’ or ‘Jewism’ to describe extremism within those cultures.

we’ve had people discuss Christian and Jewish extremism through this thread

we’ve had people discuss Christian and Jewish extremism through this thread

I see your agenda is simply to argue and not discuss anything. This, I find sad. But in case you genuinely did misunderstand; my point was about how Christian and Jewish extremism aren’t labelled in the same way Muslim/Islamic extremism is, certainly in Western media. I’ve explained why the term ‘Islamist’ is offensive, to me at least. I’d just like people to take a moment to consider that.

Without discounting the horrors of what’s going on, the rhetoric is fascinating:

intruder v settler,  militant v soldier,  extremist, jihadist, babies, controlling border v slaughter etc etc

People get whipped up by the reporting and then we get all the contumely, guilt by association, banning, time-outs, book burning. Prejudices and hatred become acceptable and normalised.

No point in hand-wringing for the fate of innocent Palestinians now, Hamas have sealed the fate of Gaza, Israel has guaranteed US backup and will act without any consideration for external opinion.

Hamas = ISIS now, this attack has blown through any pretence of them being oppressed freedom fighters and shown them for the sub-human butchers they are. Literal vermin.

There is no moral equivalency between how Israel have behaved towards Palestine and the act of slaughtering babies in front of their families, not to mention the inevitable hideous fate awaiting the hostages. There is no scenario that justifies this attack, its real next level barbarism and it brings the human psyche back to medieval times. No amount of ‘whatabout Israel’ changes this.

Hamas are now a cancer on the modern world and there is no room for liberalism in dealing with them.

No point in hand-wringing for the fate of innocent Palestinians now, Hamas have sealed the fate of Gaza, Israel has guaranteed US backup and will act without any consideration for external opinion.

Hamas = ISIS now, this attack has blown through any pretence of them being oppressed freedom fighters and shown them for the sub-human butchers they are. Literal vermin.

There is no moral equivalency between how Israel have behaved towards Palestine and the act of slaughtering babies in front of their families, not to mention the inevitable hideous fate awaiting the hostages. There is no scenario that justifies this attack, its real next level barbarism and it brings the human psyche back to medieval times. No amount of ‘whatabout Israel’ changes this.

Hamas are now a cancer on the modern world and there is no room for liberalism in dealing with them.

What do you hope to achieve with such a post, other than to antagonise and deepen division?

No point in hand-wringing for the fate of innocent Palestinians now

The dehumanisation of civilians is no different whether it’s Hamas looking at Israeli jews as sub-human, or vice versa. All you’re doing here is joining in.

There is no scenario that justifies this attack

I’ve read every single post on this thread and at no point have I seen a single contributor trying to justify the Hamas attack. If I’m wrong then please post quotes to prove it.

It’ll achieve nothing, same as every other post on any forum anywhere.

And I dont see anything antagonistic, just stating facts. I’m certainly not saying whatever comes next for Gaza is justified, but I’m seeing a lot of ‘whatabout Israel’ here and my point is the attack is so beyond the pale that ‘whatabout Israel’ becomes a moot point in the face this weekend’s horror show.

What do you hope to achieve with such a post, other than to antagonise and deepen division?

Some people just can’t understand, their hatred is all consuming.

If there was evidence of Hamas eating Israeli babies alive it would not diminish my support for the rights of the Palestinian people.

In the same way that there is no atrocity that the IDF can commit that would diminish my support for the rights of Jews anywhere in the world.

The only hatred which I feel is against racism and injustice, not “a people”.

Christian and Jewish extremism aren’t labelled in the same way Muslim/Islamic extremism is, certainly in Western media.

Have you considered why that might be? Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?

this weekend’s horror show.

For you it might be “this weekend’s horror show”. For many it is a decades old horror show.

Gerald Kaufman speaking to the House of Commons over 20 years ago:

“It is time to remind Sharon that the Star of David belongs to all Jews, not to his repulsive Government. His actions are staining the star of David with blood. The Jewish people, whose gifts to civilised discourse include Einstein and Epstein, Mendelssohn and Mahler, Sergei Eisenstein and Billy Wilder, are now symbolised throughout the world by the blustering bully Ariel Sharon, a war criminal implicated in the murder of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila camps and now involved in killing Palestinians once again.”

Today, more than twenty years later, the situation is even worse for the Palestinian people, with an even more right-wing and anti-Palestinian Israeli government.

And I dont see anything antagonistic, just stating facts

This is disingenuous and you know it. And it’s also disrespectful to others, who have for the most part been pretty fair and open-minded.

I’m seeing

And I think this is what is colouring your judgement; you are seeing what you choose to see, according to the agenda you’ve decided upon. And this isn’t getting anywhere. You’re entitled to your own opinions, that’s fine. As long as you understand that others can and will disagree and hold other opinions. And that by voicing your opinions, you reveal your own character.

Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?

Militarily? Not really. Politically, especially in the US? Absolutely.

its real next level barbarism and it brings the human psyche back to medieval times.

It is indeed! Nobody is saying otherwise. But is flattening entire areas of a densely populated city, full of innocent civilians, with huge bombs launched from F-16s any less barbaric?

How about cutting off water, electricity and medical supplies to the entire countries population at the same time, so the hospitals (and everything else) can’t function?

That’s all pretty barbaric to me

As has been said may times: there are no winners here. Both sides are embarked on a cycle of ever-increasing brutality

The only real solution to all of this is one we’ll never countenance.

Secular government, separation of church and state.  An Israel for everyone – complete freedom of religion and equality of humans under a secular government for all.

No religion deserves a homeland of it’s own.  Not Christianity, not Islam, not Judaeism, not Bhuddism.  None of those broken and disgusting belief systems.   People should be free to follow them as blindly as they like.  But government should be blind to religion – and govern for all.

Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?

Close enough for you?

In a January 2023 sermon, Patriarch Kirill predicted the Russian invasion would leave the Russian Orthodox Church triumphant in Ukraine and warned: “there will be no trace left of the schismatics because they are fulfilling the devil’s evil bidding of eroding Orthodoxy on Kyivan land.”

I’d be broadly in agreement with that whataboutism, up until the weekend. Bad things happen in conflict, Israel have behaved appallingly at times but for me its now clear it doesn’t matter what they do or have done they would still be targeted by butchers who’s only goal is to murder them.

Do you honestly believe if Israel caved to world opinion and treat Palestine the way their supporters want them to everything would sort itself out and Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers? If so I have a bridge to sell you.

Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers? If so I have a bridge to sell you

Hamas might not but then they would get marginalised and become irrelevant. More likely they would transition from armed conflict into Politics (see IRA in Ireland).

Well have to agree to strongly disagree on that one.

Do you honestly believe if Israel caved to world opinion and treat Palestine the way their supporters want them to everything would sort itself out and Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers?

No.

However, surely the answer can’t be to flatten Gaza and everyone in it. And however vile the Hamas atrocities are, we can still feel for the innocents there.

What the heck is the thinking behind the suggestion (and more worryingly the uptake) that UK local authorities fly the Israeli flag on their buildings? How can that do anything but wind up whole sections of their community?   [BBC story on Sheffield Council and someone svaling a flagpole]

What the heck is the thinking behind …

UK government supports Israel. Let’s fly a flag, like everyone does with Ukraine.

“Local government does stupid thing without thinking it through properly at all”

Shock news 😛

Just over three years ago people all over the world united against an unprecedented threat, Now look at the f#####g state of us,

Regards the blockade and not letting aid/power/etc into Gaza, I don’t think it’s purely for punishment/retaliation or whatever.

Hamas have a proven track record for appropriating this stuff for their own use, at the expense of the Gazan population.  While this may be a reason it’s certainly not the best choice but unfortunately I doubt it’s Israel’s highest priority to sort out right now. Hopefully this will be short lived and they’ll figure out some way to get stuff in safely asap.

A couple of old links:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/06/gaza-un-aid-hamas

https://www.timesofisrael.com/cement-for-rebuilding-gaza-diverted-to-attack-tunnels/

There are more recent and more detailed examples that I can’t find right now.

Do you honestly believe if Israel caved to world opinion and treat Palestine the way their supporters want them to everything would sort itself out and Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers? If so I have a bridge to sell you.

Never mind about selling bridges, you have to be naive in the very extreme to believe that this has nothing to do with the repression of the Palestinians and the huge injustices which as a people they suffer under.

And as for Hamas’s short-term demands for a long-term truce an article in the Guardian newspaper by a senior lecturer in Israeli studies and head of the Centre for Jewish Studies at Soas, the University of London, claims:

In 2018, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar sent a note in Hebrew to Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, suggesting he take a “calculated risk” by agreeing a long-term truce. While Netanyahu agreed to some easing of pressure on Gaza, he was unwilling to accept Hamas’s long-term demands, including a large-scale prisoner swap, lifting the siege by opening the international border crossing, and establishing a port and airport in Gaza. After 16 years of siege and several catastrophic rounds of war, in which thousands of Gaza residents have been killed, Hamas may be hoping to break the deadlock.

What exactly is unreasonable about Hamas’s demands for a large-scale prisoner swap, lifting the siege by opening the international border crossing, and establishing a port and airport in Gaza, in return for a long-term truce?

What is so outrageous about Hamas’s demand to be allowed to have an airport in Gaza, a territory which Israel official, and falsely, claims it doesn’t occupy?

Seriously, can you provide an explanation beyond the fact that huge open prisons don’t usually have airports in the middle of them?

However many prisoners Hamas has captured in the last few days it won’t compare the two million that Israel is holding captive, with no hope of release, in Gaza.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/08/hamas-offensive-israel-west-bank-guerrilla-movement-gaza

It’s clear that such people have a particular agenda to push

@brownperson this is as true of you as it is of anyone else here.

This was the first thing you said on this thread, without any condemnation of Hamas’s brutal actions:

Hamas militants rarely venture far into Israeli territory, and seldom with such vigour and speed. But these attacks only mirror what Palestinians have been enduring for decades; midnight raids, beatings, torture etc. To those only speaking of Hamas’ atrocities, I’d ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF? This is one of the most one-sided conflicts in history, and the tactics being used by Hamas have been learned undoubtedly from their Israeli oppressors. The rape of women, the murder of children; Israeli forces know all about that.

You went straight to accusations and whataboutery, ie justification, saying exactly what’s been said before to try to justify each new cycle of violence. Then a few pages later claimed that no one had been doing that!

The decision to fly the Israeli flag was made after a request from the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities for local authorities to “consider the action”, the council said.

The council said the Israeli flag was flown to “show solidarity with the innocent people in that country who face faced appalling acts of terror”.

FFS. No innocent folk dying in Gaza as well eh. (for context https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-67075181)

Btw in reference to this:

Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers

Just out of interest.

If going house to house killing civilians is the work of medieval butchers, what is killing civilians by raining bombs and artillery down on them and totally destroying their houses the work of?

Hi-tech modern butchers?

It seems to me that much of the criticism directly at the Palestinians is actually based on their low-tech methods of killing people – which isn’t surprising when you stop to think where both sides source their weaponry from.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

They might not have gone door-to-door killing civilians but the result is exactly the same, only with less personal risk attached to it.

Grant Shaps proclaiming support from the British for Israel’s military capability. Not in my bloody name.