Another war in Palestine

Never ending this. Thoughts the conflict ends with both sides taking note of their own failings.

It is an inalienable fact that there cannot be peace without justice.

Which is why Israel is prepared to be in a permanent state of war. Justice for the Palestinians is not an option for them, and not least when their casualty figures are so low in comparison with those of the Palestinians.

Remove Netanyaho and his right wing zionist nut jobs then, perhaps, we can have peace and reconciliation

A massive failure of intelligence?

Or deliberately allow them to mass people and weapons to launch an attack, which then they put down with overwhelming force?

I notice the reservists who were protesting against the far right government, have ceased their protest and picked up their rifles.

I notice the reservists who were protesting against the far right government, have ceased their protest and picked up their rifles.

Killing Israeli civilians is the best propaganda that right-wing Israelis can hope for.

Killing Israeli civilians is the best propaganda that right-wing Israelis can hope for.

When you say “civilians” do you mean armed settlers?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/21/israeli-settlers-attack-palestinian-villages-following-deadly-hamas-strike

Many of the hundreds of settlers who raided the town of Turmus Ayya, north of Ramallah, on Wednesday were armed.

The settler attack reinforced questions from rights groups, who accuse the military of enjoying a cosy relationship with settlers to the point of doing little to fulfil its international legal obligation of protecting civilians.

The most rightwing government in Israeli history is moving ahead with illegal settlement activity and massive infrastructure plans and appears determined to make the territory occupied during the 1967 war an integral part of Israel.

When you say “civilians” do you mean armed settlers?

I mean Israelis who aren’t in the armed forces and just going about their daily business. When Palestinians kill Israeli civilians, it turns the world against Palestinians. Utterly counterproductive.

This thread sums it up pretty well.

Strategically speaking, Gazans want the Israeli blockade of Gaza lifted, and Palestinians in general want statehood, an end to the occupation & an end to Israeli military & settler violence. Hard to see how today’s attacks advance these causes beyond revenge.

— Oz Katerji (@OzKaterji) October 7, 2023

I mean Israelis who aren’t in the armed forces and just going about their daily business.

So that includes the armed civilians who go about their daily business in illegally held occupied land then.

The Palestinian people gave up a long time ago from expecting anything from the international community beyond toothless UN resolutions condemning Israel.

Global public opinion shifted in favour of the Palestinian people a long time ago, but with western governments refusing to provide any support for them it amounts to nothing.

Killing Israeli civilians has no military purpose and just turns people against Palestinians. It’s a propaganda coup for the Israeli hard-right.

I refer to my earlier comment:

Justice for the Palestinians is not an option for them, and not least when their casualty figures are so low in comparison with those of the Palestinians.

The only time Israel has been defeated and driven out of illegally occupied territory was when Hezbollah inflicted heavy casualties on them in South Lebanon, previous to that Israel simply ignored UN resolutions condemning their illegal occupation.

Public opinion will not bring justice for the Palestinians.

You can’t keep an entire people in what amounts to an open prison then be surprised when you get a backlash

The problem for the Palestinians is the backlash from the Israelis.

With their current government, the gloves will be completely off.

I’m sure the Israeli reaction will be huge and applied indiscriminately to the entire Palestinian population, as per usual

I’m sure the Israeli reaction will be huge and applied indiscriminately to the entire Palestinian population, as per usual

Firing dozens of rockets into areas of civilian population seems indiscriminate. So for a bit of balance I’ll condemn that. No winners in this one I think.

I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.

I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.

You imagine, eh? Would it not be sensible to find out what actually happened before you start cheering on killing civilians? Israeli right-wingers claim that nobody cares about Jews being killed so Israel can never trust any treaty or peace agreement. Western lefties cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians gives those right-wingers exactly the propaganda they want.

No winners in this one I think.

Very much this. You’ve armed extremist lunatics presently in power on either side. I just feel sorry for the many people on both sides who are caught between them

I’m going to be charitable and suggest some people posting here haven’t bothered to look at any news.  It’s hard to see how a proclaimed 5000 rocket attack and taking people hostage is going to lead to anything except a very large reprisal mission on all of Gaza

I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.

Likewise. It’s been a steady incursion, with settlers taking more and more land, their government destroying age old farms and preventing the people from returning and rebuilding their shattered lives.

And yet where there is condemnation for Russia, the world is less than silent when it comes to Palestinian claims and justice.

A lot of the usual “me so clever” takes from the armchair politicians.

I’m currently being evacuated to the north of Israel after spending a morning under direct rocket attack. I’ve got colleagues and their families hunkering down in rocket shelters while Hamas run wild in the streets killing everyone they see. So far today I’ve seen videos of dead soldiers dragged through the streets of Gaza while jubilant Palestineans kick and spit on their corpses, I’ve seen dead pensioners gunned down at the bus stop, I’ve seen the piles of bodies – men, women, children and babies – inside rocket shelters that Hamas forced entry into and machine-gunned everyone inside, I’ve seen the physical beating of Palestinean women in Jerusalem in misplaced retribution for morning’s attacks, I’ve seen smoke rising over Ashkelon and Ashdod from the attacks and I’ve watched the IAF unleash destruction on Gaza City.

The Palestinean people are brainwashed fools fed only what propaganda Hamas give them and out dancing in the streets, the Israelis are really out for blood this time, what’s left of Hamas will climb out of the wreckage of the office buildings and supermarkets they were using as human shields and claim Israel have responded disproportionately, the social justice warriors safe behind their keyboards will trumpet the same old zero effort “poor Palestine, down with Israel” tripe that they think marks them out as bastions of righteousness, and all the while Iran will be rubbing its hands in glee for having its proxies throw a spanner in the works of the ongoing Israel-Saudi peace talks.

Do I agree with how the Israeli government is dealing with the settlements in Gaza and the West Bank? Absolutely not, but if you think this can be distilled down to “well ackshewally, this is all Israel’s fault because…” your critical thinking skills aren’t as astute as you think they are.

no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.

You should be **** ashamed of yourself

And yet where there is condemnation for Russia, the world is less than silent when it comes to Palestinian claims.

The consistent thing to do is to condemn Israel’s treatment of Palestinians and also condemn Palestinians’ killing of Israeli civilians. What happened today is going to make things much, much worse for Palestinians.

A bad day but inevitable with equally inevitable consequences. Nothing will change until the American government starts treating Israeli illegal occupations I the same way it does Russian ones. I doubt I will live long enough to see that hypocrisy end

You should be **** ashamed of yourself

Nah I’m all good thanks, d’ya mind if if I turf you out of your house/land and invite my mates to do the same with your neighbourhood?

no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.

You should be **** ashamed of yourself

What other country anywhere in the world has “settlers” in 2023?

I fully support the Palestinian’s right to violently oppose an illegal occupation of their land, a right which is fully enshrined under international law.

Moving “civilians” into occupied territories is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention. Israel should be held to account for this but of course they won’t be, which is why it is down to the Palestinian resistant movement.

And if the inaccuracy of their rockets is an issue then the solution is simple – arm them with advanced weapons which can be used at precise targets.

Hezbollah are joining in now.

This is only going to get much, much worse.

….and there was me thinking mass murder, torture, kidnapping followed by the indiscriminate bombing of civilians with inevitably thousands more casualties could only be a bad thing….how wrong can you be 🤷🏻

Moving “civilians” into occupied territories is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention.

Which one? There are four Geneva Conventions.

The problem with trying to invoke Geneva Conventions is that Palestinians have been violating them for decades so you’d have to put Palestinian leaders on trial if you wanted to put Israelis on trial. This is one of the most effective propaganda tools that right-wing Israelis have – their claim is that the world ignores the killing of Israeli civilians but condemns Israel’s acts of self-defense. Cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians just gives them ammunition and makes things worse for Palestinians.

Hezbollah are joining in now.

Are they? There was an anonymous Israeli source earlier which suggested that this might be a diversionary tactic to prelude a full scale attack from Hezbollah.

If Hezbollah are involved this will have been a very carefully thought out plan. As the most powerful and best equipped irregular army in the world they don’t mess about with pointless muscle flexing.

And btw the very existence of Hezbollah is the responsibility of Israel – they were created specifically to drive Israel out of illegal occupied South Lebanon, which of course they succeeded in doing.

no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.You should be **** ashamed of yourself

Not at all until Israel returns to its original borders and stops using its own citizens as human shields to maintain their illegal occupation. Israel has the right to defend those original borders but nothing else 

Which one? There are four Geneva Conventions.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

the Fourth Geneva Convention states

Is that the one that prohibits murder of civilians, which is what Israel has been complaining about for decades?

I completely agree that the Israeli settlements are illegal and should be returned to Palestinians. Problem is, if you want to force Israel to comply with the Geneva Conventions, you will need to force Palestinians to comply too. Palestinian leaders won’t accept that so you would need the U.N. or somebody to send armed troops in to arrest Palestinians and put them on trial. Nobody is willing to do that so Israeli right-wingers have a potent propaganda tool. When people cheer on the killing of Israeli civilians, they are just giving Israel license to keep up their occupation and land confiscation. I’m not condemning today’s attacks because I support Israel’s policies, but because the killing of Israeli civilians makes it impossible to improve the situation for Palestinians.

Are they? There was an anonymous Israeli source earlier which suggested that this might be a diversionary tactic to prelude a full scale attack from Hezbollah.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1710659162743386421

Is that the one that prohibits murder of civilians, which is what Israel has been complaining about for decades?

What on earth are you talking about?

Israel has “murdered”, as you call it, far more civilians than the Palestinian resistance could ever hope to.

Have you been marooned on an uninhabited island for the last few decades?

‘You can’t keep an entire people in what amounts to an open prison then be surprised when you get a backlash’

You hit the nail on the head there Binners.

What on earth are you talking about?

Well, for a couple of very famous incidents, the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympic Games and the Entebbe hijacking. But that’s just a couple of the most famous, there have been literally thousands of rocket attacks on Israel over the last few decades, aimed indiscriminately at civilians.

Every time those attacks happen and people brush them off as “well, Israelis deserve it,” Israeli right-wingers are handed the most effective propaganda tool they could ever ask for. It allows them to argue that nobody cares about Jews being killed so Israel can never trust any treaty or agreement.

Yes, Israel should be forced to return confiscated land, but the only way that will happen is if Palestinians are also forced to comply with the Geneva Conventions. That means putting people on trial for the killing of Israeli civilians. No Israeli leader is ever going to agree to a peace agreement where Israel is required to abide by the Geneva Conventions but Palestinians aren’t. That’s why it’s important to condemn the killing of Israeli civilians, if you cheer on the killing of Israeli civilians, you’re just handing Israeli right-wingers the propaganda they want.

No Israeli leader is ever going to agree to a peace agreement where Israel is required to abide by the Geneva Conventions. but Palestinians aren’t

ftfy

the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympic Games and the Entebbe hijacking.

Are you really are that desperate to justify Israel’s murderous tactics that you have to drag up events which occurred 50 years?

I reckon that speak volumes.

Have a read of this from Relief Web, a United Nations agency:

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-killed-five-times-many-palestinians-2022-it-killed-same

Israel killed five times as many Palestinians in 2022 than it killed in the same period in 2021

Was that in retaliation for Entebbe?

Edit: That report makes very interesting reading, for those who are apparently unaware of such things:

The Israeli politicians bear full responsibility for the killings of Palestinians, especially those unarmed women and children killed in cold blood without posing any threat to the lives of Israeli soldiers.

Dozens of Israelis dead, hundreds of Palestinians already dead with no doubt many more to follow, but….yay, revolution….