Air Ambulance/Mountain Rescue – worth it ?

Following on from the CrazyLegs thread, the AA and MR do a great job (you could include the RNLI , cave rescue etc.) but the AA in particular has a very high operating cost to patient ratio.

A couple of questions spring to mind……

1. Should they be funded from the public purse and operate as part of the 'emergency services'?
2. Should there be a compulsory insurance for anyone taking part in 'risky' outdoor pursuits to fund these services?

I wouldn't dream of going skiing/boarding without appropriate insurance to cover airlift/medical expenses and yet I go out on my bike, with at least as high a risk of injury, to areas where I may have to rely on a charitable organistion and volunteers to get me out of trouble. Doesn't seem quite right to me.

Any thoughts?

Same as the RLNI, seems absurd to me that for a (admittedly now marginal)maritme nation, it's a charity.

Any thoughts? Yes lets ditch trident and pay for a decent service. Our air ambulance service is good but the french one is far superior.

Mountain rescue themselves want to remain voluntary. That will do for me.

yes, should be covered on insurance. in Austria they will not rescue you unless you prove insurance or have a big limit on your credit card. i hapily pay insurance every year, its not expensive and well worth it if anything happened. however it would put alot of people off.

I wonder what the charities themselves say ? I suspect they prefer to retain their independence…

One advantage of volunteers is that they are unlikely to be jaded

should be part of the normal ambulance service (since its staffed by them) Plays an essential role, if you forget bout rescues where normal ambulance couldn't get, concider patient transfers where going by and would take too long, stability, probably a bit smoother than an ambulance (especially if it says yorkshire on the side), also able to get staff to an incident quickly even if not extricating, like a motorbike/RRV etc.

Its not essential, and perhaps every county doesn't need one, we'd make do without, but it has its place and at the right time in the right situation its priceless.

Mountain rescue is vountary, staffed my locals who know the area and want to apply their skills, the only time i ever worked with them I was well impressed by their profesionalism, clear love or their job and how much fun it looked!

dmetcalfe: "in Austria they will not rescue you unless you prove insurance or have a big limit on your credit card"

Is that really true? The mountain rescue have a eftpos terminal and if your card's declined, you get left to die? Somehow doesn't seem very likely.

in Austria they will not rescue you unless you prove insurance or have a big limit on your credit card

i think that if they did this it would be in contravention of human rights

Mountain rescue and S&R helicopters very very worthwhile. And they are what this thread is really about I guess.

Ordinary Air Ambulances are a different matter and are not going to be winching you up off a hill. Nice toys but there is very little evidence they actually improve patients chances in much of England. A different matter in countries with greater distances to cover, ( I worked in a hospital in Oz which had its own chopper for neonatal retrieval) or more gunshot/RTA trauma. The money spent on them might better be spent on improving trauma units. Many years ago it took me some time to persuade Ambulance Control not to scramble the Cornish air ambulance to deal with someone with a sprained ankle in a field.

I wouldn't dream of going skiing/boarding
without appropriate insurance to cover airlift/
medical expenses

Even in this country?

"SAR costs up to a 15,000 Euro maximum. The policy covers all immediate family members or life partners including children less than 18 years of age – within one household, worldwide. In essence, this develops a fund from which rescue costs can be repaid and prevents any sole individual from bearing the total cost of their rescue. A one week search for a missing person could easily cost 20,000 Euro."
i had been told when we've been down you have to carry proof of insurance in the mountains for any sort of rescue, from the AMRS website it sounds like you will pay for costs after.

any yes i wouldn't do any sport/activity that is inherently dangerous without appropriate insurance that covers rescue/medical costs and if i wasnt in a job where i'm getting paid even if i'm unable to work i would also have cover for that. a small misjudgment could be you out of work for months.

Like the RNLI, many of these operations wish to remain independant of goverment interferance.

Even in this country?

Yes. A mate of mine was airlifted from Glenshee many years ago and charged a couple of hundred pounds IIRC. A lot of money then and I don't suppose it has got cheaper. None of us were aware of this charge at the time but we all paid the 'day insurance' after that which was 50p at the time.

Does anyone know how these charges are calculated, what criteria is used, or even if they still exist ?

They're all absolutely unnecessary.

Until you need them….

All boils down to money as per usual!

Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are….Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc. Then go spend a shift in the A&E department.

Then rethink … What do we as a society value more highly.. The saving of property or life?

1. Should they be funded from the public purse and operate as part of the 'emergency services'?

Most recieve fairly good donations from those they help and want to remain voluntary.

2. Should there be a compulsory insurance for anyone taking part in 'risky' outdoor pursuits to fund these services?

NO

Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are….Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc. Then go spend a shift in the A&E department.

………………….or an ambulance station ! I think the chefs went a little while ago BTW 😕

The Air Ambulance in NE England used to be part of the ambulance service but was dropped and the running taken over by an ex-employee to run as a charity as it was not 'cost-effective'.

I think the air ambulance should be funded though I do not intend to demean the work of the Mountain rescue or RNLI. Only because the aa is used for so many incidents and is pretty much a tool of the paramedic service? Whereas the RNLI and Mtn Rescue whilst being incredibly brave are fairly specialist? Perhaps the RNLI should be partly funded by contributions from commercial operations at sea who rely on them? Ie cargo ships and larger trawlers etc?

I agree with the people who say they should remain independant. I also agree they shouldn't have to rely on donations and charity. It doesn't see to me they're mutually exclusive.

Perhaps the RNLI should be partly funded by contributions from commercial operations at sea who rely on them? Ie cargo ships and larger trawlers etc?

Genuine question: who does RNLI mostly assist – cargo ships, fisherman, hapless idiots in RIBs trying to get to Soton with a road map…?

hundreds of tourists and those in peril..

Dont agree with paying extra insurance. We already pay national health insurance so it should be free. I can get a sex change on NHS why not air ambulance?

Woody – Member

A mate of mine was airlifted from Glenshee many years ago and charged a couple of hundred pounds IIRC.

Sorry, but this is absolute bollocks.

Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are….Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc

Well Brack you know the reason for that now and yes probably a handful of the cooks left.

Should AA be funded by the Government purse? It's massively expensive yes it's useful but costs an absolute fortune to run. It also seems to run much better now as it's used by more than one service, when it was up here it was almost exclusive to the old Northumbria Service so the work load was less.

Handy when we need it but very expensive to run. Do we put cost on life, no but when the money can be used to put more A+E vehicles on then they will do more work than an AA can do that makes the cost for saving lives more efficient.

hundreds of tourists and those in peril..

So if it's all tourists, is it that fair and practical ('cos shipping is bloody hard to tax already) to try and charge container ships, tankers etc for it?

Dont agree with paying extra insurance. We already pay national health insurance so it should be free.

Where do you think the money is going to come from? The NHS helicopter fairies?

Money from the government would be good but with governemnt money comes government paperwork, and the sar teams etc all ready have enough of that, without any more.
If I see a pot for the AA or Sar teams and I have change then I donate, waiting until you after you need them to donate may be too late, if they can't afford to attend to you in the first place.

I would say that the Air Ambulance is going to become much more important as time passes. The trend is very much towards consolidation – larger hospitals with more specialist staff and equipment.

As nobody seems to want to build a decent road network, we're going to rely more on the air ambulance. As an example, we're 5 miles from the nearest hospital, but that's still going to be a 45 minute round trip if it's done at rush hour, even with flashing lights.

In fact, the other night in Nottingham, the air ambulance attended to someone at the playing fields just south of Uni Park. It's less than a mile to the Hospital (QMC), but the route is incredibly choked up in the evenings.

1) I always put my change in the air ambulance tin, it's a form of insurance
2) they should be allowed to charge idiots for call-outs for eg 'flipflop strap broken on my way up Snowdon'

I think they have a system in NZ where all this kind of stuff is paid for by a central fund, which seems good to me.

I cant understand the attitude that we are somehow being irresponsible mtb'ing and should have special insurance. To my mind it is a health promoting activity, and there are plenty of other ways to risk you're health causing expense to the public purse.

Air ambulance definately worth it.

Last month I took part in a charity motorbike ride for Wales air ambulance.(because you never know when….)

2 weeks ago I was on a rideout with some friends,they came off and the helicopter boys were there in 20 mins before the wheeled ambulance and got my mate to hospital inside the hour.

Planning another charity ride already..

they should be allowed to charge idiots for call-outs for eg 'flipflop strap broken on my way up Snowdon'

the problem here is everyones idea of idiocy is different. I would hope never to condemn someone who made a mistake doing something for maybe the first time. Rather than sit in a cafe eating cake they have tried something new while ill equipped, if theyre punished for it then they will never make the effort again.

I think they have a system in NZ where all this kind of stuff is paid for by a central fund, which seems good to me.

Wrong. Air Ambulance are generally funded from the public and/or sponsorship they are not funded by government under the ACC or Health budgets, thats certainly true for the Wellington Life Flight and Westpac Rescue Heli who we sponsor. Awesome x 1000 service, fckn amazing, have seen it in action and been party via my SAR work to its services. They do a magnificent job and I have absolutely no problem making sure we route a fair amount of $ to them every Xmas instead of corporate lunches, xmas cards and wasteful sh1te like that. The fact that they consider this 'a deposit' from me is incidental because the day I use it I'll be very thankful. They struggle to maintain funding (as do all the other regions) and I for one think this is a disgrace while they p1ss away money on useless tiers of fckn middle management that do nothing. End of rant.

@Stoatsbrother

Ordinary Air Ambulances are a different matter and are not going to be winching you up off a hill

…no, they can't winch you off, but they can and do set down in some impressively tight spots to pick up casualties in the hills. As is made clear in many MRT incident reports of the last few years.

I do not intend to demean the work of the Mountain rescue or RNLI. Only because the aa is used for so many incidents and is pretty much a tool of the paramedic service? Whereas the RNLI and Mtn Rescue whilst being incredibly brave are fairly specialist?

I think you're a little wrong there. I know my local mountain rescue team (Rossendale & Pendle) are regularly called out by the police to support search and rescue operations which don't involve people pursuing outdoor pursuits, being surrounded by urban areas there are often incidents they help with. I know one of the local cave rescue teams was recently called out to a mountain biking incident in Gisburn forest as they were close than the MR. I also recently witnessed the RNLI helping get a holiday maker off a beach after breaking an ankle. I think most people would be surprised at the amount we rely on these services beyond the obvious incidents. I personally would like to see proper government funding behind them although I can see why those running the services would like to remain independant.

There's a chance I'd only have one foot now if I hadn't been airlifted from the woods. So of course I think they're vital.

But as stated above, many of these organisations wish to remain autonomous of the government bureaucracy that comes with government funding. And seeing how the government seems to make an utter hash of every single thing it gets involved in, I'm inclined to agree.

So a Farmer has a heart attack in a field, and the air ambulance is summonded as its difficult to get an ambulance there – should he have insurance?

For me they should be out of the tax budget, just like the police ones.

I'm part of a Rescue Team..

We want to remain voluntary, we're considering employing a full time fundraiser but that would be as far as it goes, it's part of the organisation's constitution that we are all volunteers though and any form of payment which is given is forwarded to the Team.

We operate both inshore lifeboats and a land rescue team, fundraising is hard and takes a lot of time, it's funny though, we don't get paid by anyone but a lot of people we help out come to us with donations

Don't know about the Air Ambulance but I donate £5 to Mountain Rescue everytime I go to the Lakes and I let friends stay free in my house there on the basis that they make a voluntary contribution aswell. It usualy adds up to about £400 per year.

If all mountain users did something similar, on however small a scale, I think funding problems would be covered.

BUT I fully recognise that I had been a Fell walker/ Mountain Biker for thirty years before it occured to me that this would be a good idea.

Perhaps it needs a bit of an awareness campaign to push people into regular donations when they go to mountain areas.

i work for the fire service and trust me the last thing mountain rescue or air ambulance need is goverment Funding because with that comes goverment interference and they are doing there best to screw up the fire police and ambos!!