[Closed] Air Ambulance/Mountain Rescue - worth it ?

Same as the RLNI, seems absurd to me that for a (admittedly now marginal)maritme nation, it's a charity.

Any thoughts? Yes lets ditch trident and pay for a decent service. Our air ambulance service is good but the french one is far superior.

Mountain rescue themselves want to remain voluntary. That will do for me.

yes, should be covered on insurance. in Austria they will not rescue you unless you prove insurance or have a big limit on your credit card. i hapily pay insurance every year, its not expensive and well worth it if anything happened. however it would put alot of people off.

I wonder what the charities themselves say ? I suspect they prefer to retain their independence...

One advantage of volunteers is that they are unlikely to be jaded

should be part of the normal ambulance service (since its staffed by them) Plays an essential role, if you forget bout rescues where normal ambulance couldn't get, concider patient transfers where going by and would take too long, stability, probably a bit smoother than an ambulance (especially if it says yorkshire on the side), also able to get staff to an incident quickly even if not extricating, like a motorbike/RRV etc.

Its not essential, and perhaps every county doesn't need one, we'd make do without, but it has its place and at the right time in the right situation its priceless.

Mountain rescue is vountary, staffed my locals who know the area and want to apply their skills, the only time i ever worked with them I was well impressed by their profesionalism, clear love or their job and how much fun it looked!

dmetcalfe: "in Austria they will not rescue you unless you prove insurance or have a big limit on your credit card"

Is that really true? The mountain rescue have a eftpos terminal and if your card's declined, you get left to die? Somehow doesn't seem very likely.

in Austria they will not rescue you unless you prove insurance or have a big limit on your credit card

i think that if they did this it would be in contravention of human rights

Mountain rescue and S&R helicopters very very worthwhile. And they are what this thread is really about I guess.

Ordinary Air Ambulances are a different matter and are not going to be winching you up off a hill. Nice toys but there is very little evidence they actually improve patients chances in much of England. A different matter in countries with greater distances to cover, ( I worked in a hospital in Oz which had its own chopper for neonatal retrieval) or more gunshot/RTA trauma. The money spent on them might better be spent on improving trauma units. Many years ago it took me some time to persuade Ambulance Control not to scramble the Cornish air ambulance to deal with someone with a sprained ankle in a field.

I wouldn't dream of going skiing/boarding
without appropriate insurance to cover airlift/
medical expenses

Even in this country?

"SAR costs up to a 15,000 Euro maximum. The policy covers all immediate family members or life partners including children less than 18 years of age - within one household, worldwide. In essence, this develops a fund from which rescue costs can be repaid and prevents any sole individual from bearing the total cost of their rescue. A one week search for a missing person could easily cost 20,000 Euro."
i had been told when we've been down you have to carry proof of insurance in the mountains for any sort of rescue, from the AMRS website it sounds like you will pay for costs after.

any yes i wouldn't do any sport/activity that is inherently dangerous without appropriate insurance that covers rescue/medical costs and if i wasnt in a job where i'm getting paid even if i'm unable to work i would also have cover for that. a small misjudgment could be you out of work for months.

Like the RNLI, many of these operations wish to remain independant of goverment interferance.

Even in this country?

Yes. A mate of mine was airlifted from Glenshee many years ago and charged a couple of hundred pounds IIRC. A lot of money then and I don't suppose it has got cheaper. None of us were aware of this charge at the time but we all paid the 'day insurance' after that which was 50p at the time.

Does anyone know how these charges are calculated, what criteria is used, or even if they still exist ?

They're all absolutely unnecessary.

Until you need them....

All boils down to money as per usual!

Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are....Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc. Then go spend a shift in the A&E department.

Then rethink ... What do we as a society value more highly.. The saving of property or life?

1. Should they be funded from the public purse and operate as part of the 'emergency services'?

2. Should there be a compulsory insurance for anyone taking part in 'risky' outdoor pursuits to fund these services?

Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are....Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc. Then go spend a shift in the A&E department.

The Air Ambulance in NE England used to be part of the ambulance service but was dropped and the running taken over by an ex-employee to run as a charity as it was not 'cost-effective'.

I think the air ambulance should be funded though I do not intend to demean the work of the Mountain rescue or RNLI. Only because the aa is used for so many incidents and is pretty much a tool of the paramedic service? Whereas the RNLI and Mtn Rescue whilst being incredibly brave are fairly specialist? Perhaps the RNLI should be partly funded by contributions from commercial operations at sea who rely on them? Ie cargo ships and larger trawlers etc?

I agree with the people who say they should remain independant. I also agree they shouldn't have to rely on donations and charity. It doesn't see to me they're mutually exclusive.

Perhaps the RNLI should be partly funded by contributions from commercial operations at sea who rely on them? Ie cargo ships and larger trawlers etc?

hundreds of tourists and those in peril..

Dont agree with paying extra insurance. We already pay national health insurance so it should be free. I can get a sex change on NHS why not air ambulance?

Woody - Member

A mate of mine was airlifted from Glenshee many years ago and charged a couple of hundred pounds IIRC.

Sorry, but this is absolute bollocks.

[i]Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are....Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc[/i]

Well Brack you know the reason for that now and yes probably a handful of the cooks left.

Should AA be funded by the Government purse? It's massively expensive yes it's useful but costs an absolute fortune to run. It also seems to run much better now as it's used by more than one service, when it was up here it was almost exclusive to the old Northumbria Service so the work load was less.

Handy when we need it but very expensive to run. Do we put cost on life, no but when the money can be used to put more A+E vehicles on then they will do more work than an AA can do that makes the cost for saving lives more efficient.

hundreds of tourists and those in peril..

Dont agree with paying extra insurance. We already pay national health insurance so it should be [b]free[/b].

Money from the government would be good but with governemnt money comes government paperwork, and the sar teams etc all ready have enough of that, without any more.
If I see a pot for the AA or Sar teams and I have change then I donate, waiting until you after you need them to donate may be too late, if they can't afford to attend to you in the first place.

I would say that the Air Ambulance is going to become much more important as time passes. The trend is very much towards consolidation - larger hospitals with more specialist staff and equipment.

As nobody seems to want to build a decent road network, we're going to rely more on the air ambulance. As an example, we're 5 miles from the nearest hospital, but that's still going to be a 45 minute round trip if it's done at rush hour, even with flashing lights.

In fact, the other night in Nottingham, the air ambulance attended to someone at the playing fields just south of Uni Park. It's less than a mile to the Hospital (QMC), but the route is incredibly choked up in the evenings.

1) I always put my change in the air ambulance tin, it's a form of insurance
2) they should be allowed to charge idiots for call-outs for eg 'flipflop strap broken on my way up Snowdon'

I think they have a system in NZ where all this kind of stuff is paid for by a central fund, which seems good to me.

I cant understand the attitude that we are somehow being irresponsible mtb'ing and should have special insurance. To my mind it is a health promoting activity, and there are plenty of other ways to risk you're health causing expense to the public purse.

Air ambulance definately worth it.

Last month I took part in a charity motorbike ride for Wales air ambulance.(because you never know when....)

2 weeks ago I was on a rideout with some friends,they came off and the helicopter boys were there in 20 mins before the wheeled ambulance and got my mate to hospital inside the hour.

Planning another charity ride already..

they should be allowed to charge idiots for call-outs for eg 'flipflop strap broken on my way up Snowdon'

the problem here is everyones idea of idiocy is different. I would hope never to condemn someone who made a mistake doing something for maybe the first time. Rather than sit in a cafe eating cake they have tried something new while ill equipped, if theyre punished for it then they will never make the effort again.

I think they have a system in NZ where all this kind of stuff is paid for by a central fund, which seems good to me.

@Stoatsbrother

Ordinary Air Ambulances are a different matter and are not going to be winching you up off a hill

...no, they can't winch you off, but they can and do set down in some impressively tight spots to pick up casualties in the hills. As is made clear in many MRT incident reports of the last few years.

I do not intend to demean the work of the Mountain rescue or RNLI. Only because the aa is used for so many incidents and is pretty much a tool of the paramedic service? Whereas the RNLI and Mtn Rescue whilst being incredibly brave are fairly specialist?

I think you're a little wrong there. I know my local mountain rescue team (Rossendale & Pendle) are regularly called out by the police to support search and rescue operations which don't involve people pursuing outdoor pursuits, being surrounded by urban areas there are often incidents they help with. I know one of the local cave rescue teams was recently called out to a mountain biking incident in Gisburn forest as they were close than the MR. I also recently witnessed the RNLI helping get a holiday maker off a beach after breaking an ankle. I think most people would be surprised at the amount we rely on these services beyond the obvious incidents. I personally would like to see proper government funding behind them although I can see why those running the services would like to remain independant.

There's a chance I'd only have one foot now if I hadn't been airlifted from the woods. So of course I think they're vital.

But as stated above, many of these organisations wish to remain autonomous of the government bureaucracy that comes with government funding. And seeing how the government seems to make an utter hash of every single thing it gets involved in, I'm inclined to agree.

So a Farmer has a heart attack in a field, and the air ambulance is summonded as its difficult to get an ambulance there - should he have insurance?

For me they should be out of the tax budget, just like the police ones.

I'm part of a Rescue Team..

We want to remain voluntary, we're considering employing a full time fundraiser but that would be as far as it goes, it's part of the organisation's constitution that we are all volunteers though and any form of payment which is given is forwarded to the Team.

We operate both inshore lifeboats and a land rescue team, fundraising is hard and takes a lot of time, it's funny though, we don't get paid by anyone but a lot of people we help out come to us with donations

Don't know about the Air Ambulance but I donate £5 to Mountain Rescue everytime I go to the Lakes and I let friends stay free in my house there on the basis that they make a voluntary contribution aswell. It usualy adds up to about £400 per year.

If all mountain users did something similar, on however small a scale, I think funding problems would be covered.

BUT I fully recognise that I had been a Fell walker/ Mountain Biker for thirty years before it occured to me that this would be a good idea.

Perhaps it needs a bit of an awareness campaign to push people into regular donations when they go to mountain areas.

i work for the fire service and trust me the last thing mountain rescue or air ambulance need is goverment Funding because with that comes goverment interference and they are doing there best to screw up the fire police and ambos!!

yes i wouldn't do any sport/activity that is inherently dangerous without appropriate insurance

Genuine question: who does RNLI mostly assist - cargo ships, fisherman, hapless idiots in RIBs trying to get to Soton with a road map...?

First post and was only browsing but had to respond to this. Check the Poole lifeboat call out log [url= http://www.poolelifeboat.co.uk/content/shouts/index.shtml ]here[/url] and look at the entries for 11th May. I can confirm the RNLI occasionaly assist cyclists 😳

Adrian

very interesting link, thank you! mostly tourists/amateur yachtsmen/ill people, it seems then.

(welcome to STW)

the problem here is everyones idea of idiocy is different. I would hope never to condemn someone who made a mistake doing something for maybe the first time. Rather than sit in a cafe eating cake they have tried something new while ill equipped, if theyre punished for it then they will never make the effort again.

I don't know about that - negligence and gross negligence are both concepts known and applied in the law already. You could easily draft a law that said being a bit careless (not looking at the weather forecast and only wearing trainers) wouldn't be chargeable but being a complete pillock would be.

But it still might not be a good idea - you don't want people not calling because they're worried about getting charged.

Should they be funded from the public purse

Haven't you heard? There's no money...

The problem with buying insurance is that an insurance company would make a profit and the rescue service would just break even. This probably already exists but can you become an associate member of mountain rescue, I'd much rather pay a yearly "membership" than pay an insurance company. If everybody who was likely to need help did that it would go along way.

I and most of my friends always put money into collection boxes from mountain rescue. I know a fair few volunteers and over the years have had friends saved by them so it seems only sensible.

Oh and I think road biking is more dangerous than mountain biking. At least in terms of insurance of financial risks.

I can't help thinking watching the air ambulance programs on telly that they're sometimes a bit too keen to use them. Of course I could be a bit naive because one of the problems emergency services face is determining the severity of the problem (and potential complications) from afar.

Still - a big fan of these 'peripheral - haha' emergency services and always prepared to drop em some cash.

Air Ambulance/Mountain Rescue - worth it ?

When you are out on a yacht, when the wind direction swings round offshore and increases from the forecast 4-5 to high 7 and then your engine overheats, yes!

We'd have spent hours tacking up and down until the tide turned before we could get back to sheltered waters and we'd have had to weigh an anchor and make the remaining journey ashore by tender.

We were all correctly attired, harnessed up and competent in the conditions (the skipper has sailed across the atlantic and we've all done several years of coastal cruising, done the courses etc).

We took a pre-emptive step to seek advice from the coastguard and he dispatched a lifeboat to tow us in. No drama, but embarrassing all the same.

We'd attempted repairs prior to making the call, but could find nothing wrong, but imagine your workshop bouncing up and down about 12ft as you try to work!

The problem turned out to be pieces of impeller that had broken off prior to mateyboy owning the boat. We were unlucky that the problem hadn't appeared straight away when we motored up the river after taking delivery several weeks earlier. The engine had been fine the previous day and on two other trips, so it was unforeseeable.

I shall make sure i donate a bit extra next time.

Ambulance service in the Channel Islands has an interesting model (run by St Johns)

Annual family subscription costs about fifty quid (discounts for low income etc) - if you're not a member, you get hit with a bill after use of £200 upwards for an ambulance callout.

Seems fair to me, no top heavy bureaucracy, independent service

No reason it couldn't work for air ambulance

zulu-eleven yesterday:

[img] [/img]

😉

Annual family subscription costs about fifty quid (discounts for low income etc)

Here on the mainland we have the same system, except it costs a bit more and also covers roads, schools, and lots of other useful stuff.

We call it "income tax".

Indeed Elliptic - sort of makes you wonder why these unrelated and different organisations like mountain rescue, RNLI and the the Air Ambulance are [u]so[/u] keen on retaining their independence doesn't it?

Thought the point of the thread was that at the moment these services are [b]not[/b] paid for from taxation - (although there's [b]always[/b] going to be money for 'Equality and Diversity' staff in the london ambulance service ...)

http://randomreality.blogware.com/

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Welsh air ambulance evacuating a motorcyclist from the playing field at ByC in 2006. Pillion passenger on motorbike had apparently died at the scene of the RTC.

Comparisions between UK & Europe need to be considered, many european states do not have free at point of care service, so even calling a bog standard ambulance requires payment in many parts of europe. Should air ambulance be centrally funded, dunno, if those running them currently say not, then I think that the decision has been made. I'd agree with the numpties up Snowdon in trainers in the snow should be made to pay something for the SAR service, as they're placing the SAR crew under considerable risk.

[/Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are....Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc. Then go spend a shift in the A&E department.]

Then rethink ... What do we as a society value more highly.. The saving of property or life?

:evil:And the role of the fire and rescue service is purely saving of property is it??
I think you may need to look a little deeper into that one....

Go on any firestation and check out how good the facilities are....Sports, tv room, sleeping quarters, chef etc.

that's because the butch types who become firemen would otherwise be fighting or setting light to things?

My apologies not sure how to do the little box!

the thing is, everything costs lots of money, and when it comes down to it, most of the time its not needed, it there just in case. Ambulances rarely need paramedics, most of the work the service does could be done by a taxi driver, but just in case we have paramedics, fire service don't need most of their training very often, but when the brown stuff hits the fan, aren't you glad they've done it? Likewise, air ambulance/ mountain rescue/RNLI/Cave rescue is expensive and not essential, however when needed they are priceless.

Independence means you can spare your money where you, the user think it needs to be spent, not where the government think it needs to be spent.

I work for an ambulance trust, he government is funding a hazardous area response team. loads of front line para's taken off the road, given loads of fun training and shiney new gear including 4X4's, new RRV's and big truck. Just in case of terrorist attack. They spend a lot of time sitting around doing not very much. maenwhile regular ambulance staff are overworked, and missing all the experienced staff who went to HART and were replaced by gophers.

This is why these groups want to be independent, so they can choose where to spend their money on the things that they need.

My apologies not sure how to do the little box!

copy the bit you want to quote, click "quote", paste, click "/quote", or paste first and click "quote" while pasted text is highlighted 🙂

@Zulu-Eleven

makes you wonder why these unrelated and different organisations like mountain rescue, RNLI and the the Air Ambulance are so keen on retaining their independence doesn't it?

Your example was an ordinary ambulance service. Do you think it's a *good* thing that people in the Channel Islands need insurance cover for ambulance journeys?

Thought the point of the thread was that at the moment these services are not paid for from taxation

The other point of this thread is they're free at the point of use, and the people who run them seem to want them to stay that way.

I believe the reason most of these organizations don't want to charge (whether its price to be rescued or insurance to get rescued)is because they think most people would leave it much longer before asking for help and in a lot of cases this would cost lives and/or make help/rescue much harder.
As for taking money from the gov. this always comes at a cost,both financialy and morally.But by staying independant they can do the right thing rather than the politicaly correct thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west_wales/10307426.stm

Shoot the owner, put the dog on a diet.

Could have been hypoglycaemic, dogs often run themselves into the ground and cannot go on, animal looked pretty fit to me. All they had to do was give it some chocolate and it would have run on.

Aside from that I am happy that its not govt funded, I pay 50 a year to air ambulance and rnli each. Haven't thought about funding mountain rescue might now though..

As many say, I think most MR/RNLI etc would want to remain voluntary.

For me, I would ask 'where does risk start?' - so doing a 'risky' sport - does that mean a Sunday afternoon wander with the kids? My sunday walk this week took us to 600m+ altitude - we met dog walkers, families, runners, bikers (engine and pedal), we were within a mile of the village, but would require a helicopter (ideally) to evacuate, should one of the kids have slipped of the rocks they were climbing.
My work is 900ft up a hillside, by road. But the road is so badly maintained that if we ever have a bad injury, then it is a helicopter evacuation. So a month back, a 10 year old girl slipped on steps inside, injured bumped her back (and thought nothing of it at the time). A couple of hours later, she was in agony and laid flat in spasms with pins and needles in her feet. We called an ambulance, who refused to take her out on our road with a back injury. Hello parrafin budgie. Was she taking a risk, and should have had insurance to walk down two steps in a house?

Risk is something we should all learn to live with and manage, not look to insurers to sort and 'expect' a rescue. Rescue is a bonus, not a requirement.

Woody - Member

A mate of mine was airlifted from Glenshee many years ago and charged a couple of hundred pounds IIRC.

Sorry, but this is absolute bollocks.

You may be right....... it was late and after a long day when I posted 😉 It may have been an ordinary ambulance but I know he was definitely charged. I'll ask him next time I see him, which is about once every 6 years. We are talking 30+ years ago and why else would we have paid ski insurance - we all had our own gear?

Dont agree with paying extra insurance. We already pay national health insurance so it should be free.

Where do you think the money is going to come from? The NHS helicopter fairies?

I think it will come from redirecting money away from less important cosmetic operations towards life saving services. Unless you think that boob jobs or sex change is a good use of tax payers money?

A mate of mine was airlifted from Glenshee as well, incredible he survived actually with bad bad head injuries, the fact i was on ski patrol at the time and had gear with me probably helped. Anyhoo the Sea King landed in an incredible spot and gave us exactly 1 minute to get him and me in before they flew to Dundee via all the low glens they could find. I eventually got a ride back to Glenshee the next morning with them as they were 'going that way' and knew i would have trouble getting back so they landed at the hospital and picked me up - legends ! We managed to get a grand together afterwards as a donation but they definitely cannot and do not charge you.

We recently assisted Llanberis MRT in a 'cragfast' rescue 8)

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

In that 2nd shot the rotors look alarmingly close to the rocks!

MR team member and a big no thanks to state controlled/ managed/ directed funding; although it is getting more expensive to run our team. We volunteer cos we want to. And also because our wives/ husbands/ kids want us out of the house.

Funding for direct expenditure sounds initialy at least attractive. Our insurance costs for example creep ever upward, so does the cost of the fuel we use, the equipment we buy. The biggest potential cost for any team would of course be time spent doing the job, and I guess that state funding of any aspect of the currently all volunteer service could lead over time to further expense as peoples workplaces look for compensation as their members are absent when they go off on a callout. We are not an especially busy team, at an average of 40 shouts a year. We are full of admiration for some of the Lakes teams who double treble or even quadruple our numbers; I do wonder how that level of commitment can be sustained. Last night we were out till 3am searching, with a positive result. Would I want to go out again tonight and the next on equally important callouts, yes of course, but then fundraise on the weekend...errr no thanks.

So please donate when you feel you can.

Save us from the paperwork.

It would be better if the government gave a commitment to exempt Mountain Rescue from VAT.

I think it will come from redirecting money away from less important cosmetic operations towards life saving services. Unless you think that boob jobs or sex change is a good use of tax payers money?

What you mean is [b]you [/b]don't need it so you don't want to pay for it.

konabunny

nope I am Mountain Leader qualified and I certainly think the are needed. I have insurance cover including Europe to cover my adventure activities. Get air lifted from a mountain in Europe and see what bill you get hit with. Search and Rescue (SAR) which is what is in the picture is funded centrally, they are RAF. So clearly the model of central funding is already in place. It just needs expanding to include Air Ambulance. When we are in financial difficulties we should prioritize our funding. I cant see why such a commonsense approach is wrong?

I don't think they are hilarious your taking it personally. This is about medical need in an emergency and where we should spend the money. I think routine non emergency treatment is less of a priority than the emergency service air ambulance provides. And I would add that I am not medically qualified to make such choices but in society I am allowed to contribute to the debate.

My view is we pay enough already it should be free at the point of delivery. The alternatives are charity or follow the European model and pick the bill yourself.