[Closed] AIMUp - Action for the Innerleithen Mechanical Uplift

to develop a sustainable community based business model and feasibility report.

TandemJeremy - Member
to develop a sustainable community based business model and feasibility report.

what's your point caller?

should have been in quotes.

Its not got the slightest possibility of being sustainable - the numbers simply don't add up

TJ just called BS bingo on the article? 😆

Where are the numbers? It'll have to be a pretty old chairlift to be economically viable though! Mind you Hillend is getting half a million to expand so there must still be money somewhere.

Its not got the slightest possibility of being sustainable - the numbers simply don't add up

Better tell them that, they seem to be about to comission a report to look into it, could save RBS a fortune*.

*or not, it's bonus season soon, so maybe this is a better use of the money than some quant or traders new 911.

If the numbers add up for soem of the 'Ski resorts' in Scotland that only open a few weekends a year, I'm sure a bike lift running 10+months of the year could make ends meet, especialy if it was funded by the government/lottery/RBS as it'l bring in money to the local economy too, I reckon there's a lot of unfurfilled demand in the UK for a propper lift assisted bike park, just look at the number of uplift services on hills with 2 or 3 2 minute downhill tracks, I'm sure people would pay the £30+ day ticket price for a hill with 10+ 5 minute runs, and an uplift that kept going untill you were knackered.

bigjim - there was a load of numbers done in 2007 which killed it dead. Just ridiculous overoptimistic assumptions that still didn't add up to a business case that worked.

Its someones dream and they are still chasing it it looks like but its dead in the water if you look at it with any degree of realism.

I'd love to see it - but its just not going to happen.

tinas

They are trying to get RBS to pay via its charity arm for another report.

The last effort in terms of a study was hotly debated on here and elsewhere, and seemed to be wildly optimistic in terms of the numbers of people who would use such a facility. Let's gave it, the top of Minch Moor is not a tourist destination, the hills are not big enough or scenic enough to encourage anyone other than bikers and the occasional walker to go there.
In addition, the rising cost of transport will probably impact on the number of visits, especially given the lack of rail links to the area. Despite the vocal support, there simply aren't enough downhillers to make it work for more than a few weekends a year.

there simply aren't enough downhillers to make it work for more than a few weekends a year.

Well the uplift seem's pretty busy? And it'd be a safe assumption that a charilift would be more popular. And thinking beyond downhillers, I reckon the weekend warrior crowd (me included) would happily pay for a day or two riding a 'trail center' without spending 2/3 of the time riding up fire roads.

tinas

In the plan as originally proposed they planned for every downhiller in the UK to spend 20+ weekends a year at innnerleithan for example

hundreds of sightseers a week every week of the year going up it just to see the view

125 000+ visitors a year. 350 people every day of the year.

As many people every day of the year as nevis range gets on a summers weekend IIRC

Hi TJ - not wanting to get into an argument but have you read the new proposal ? It has been updated significantly from the former proposals.

All I can find is a load of waffle - got anything more concrete for me to look at?

As i said - I'd love to see it happen.

I'm not against the idea, but its not sustainable in any sensible way; I certainly wouldn't pay £5-10 for a lift when riding xc, and as noted above, there simply aren't the numbers of people who would pay on a regular basis to keep it open.
Add £30 to the cost of a weekend, for 10? maybe 15? weekends a year? Plus transport costs, plus accomodation costs?
Sorry, but the best way to support that area is better rail links and more xc trails, not a lift.

OK, that sounds optimistic, but wan't one of the figures quoted as something like £250,000 for the cheepest 2nd hand chairlift? That's the same ballpark as a new 50 seater coach, so the numbers can't be far off being economical.

Add £30 to the cost of a weekend, for 10? maybe 15? weekends a year? Plus transport costs, plus accomodation costs?

Given the costs involved with downhilling, £30 is pocket change

Add £30 to the cost of a weekend

£10 million for the chairlift.

tinas

yes - you can sell out a couple of dozen places on a summer saturday no problem.

300+ average every day of the year? who is going to do it on a wet novemeber wednesday?

Do the revised proposals take into account the Borders Railway and any kind of link to that? Would be a good idea, except they can't find anyone that wants to build it, so it might not be around for a while yet...cue Scottish infrastructure project farcical theme tune...

Rail access isn't going to help is it, you'll only be able to put 4 bikes on each train and it will cost twice as much as driving.

in Scotland that only open a few weekends a year

ORLY?

£10 million for the chairlift.

£10.13million actualy. And if you read the AIMup website it says the new proposal is estimated at arround half that.

Why are people so negative about it? There's the population at large who can be as negative about spending money on bikes, can't at least MTB'ers be positive about it or we'll never get more facilities?

tinas

Because its completely non viable. Its stupid to waste time money and effort on something so obviously non viable. For example the link above. Tahts money the RBS use to give to charities and community groups to allow them to make professional presentations. If this project gets that money someone else does not.

Have you seen what they are proposing instead of a chairlift now? Its laughable

that looks class!

and cheap! 😉

I'm surprised that no-one from AIMup is talking to the windfarm company that wants to build on Minchmoor. These developers are often able to provide ongoing community funding as part of the application, plus there might be some way of sharing access roads?

Sorry to say, but without this assistance, I can't ever seeing it pay its way - even taking into account any benefit to the wider community. Oh - and it's nowhere near the route of the borders railway.

we have a woods criss-crossed with trails, and traversed by hefty bikes, and serviced by a whacking great tractor-trailer and bus, and a mini railline is too far? i remember the feasibility studies because my former employer was involved in it. you can't develop in the car park because it's a floodplain. [i]but the rail link won't require a development on the floodplain[/i]. i commend their ingenuity.

£10.13million actualy. And if you read the AIMup website it says the new proposal is estimated at arround half that

Even at £5 million, it's still expensive. Glenshee put a new chairlift in for £1 million

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1676086?UserKey=

http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/planning/apps/detail.asp?ref_no=APP/2010/0972#proposal

I'm surprised that no-one from AIMup is talking to the windfarm company that wants to build on Minchmoor. These developers are often able to provide ongoing community funding as part of the application, plus there might be some way of sharing access roads?

Its actually a planning requirement. However I don't think that helping the creme of british atheletes I see in Inners car park on saturday afternoon up a hill for a spliff break will be seen as community benefit!

Rail access isn't going to help is it, you'll only be able to put 4 bikes on each train and it will cost twice as much as driving.

sad but true! however I would not assume that most riders have cars or access to cars, especially the teenagers.

I'm surprised that no-one from AIMup is talking to the windfarm company that wants to build on Minchmoor. These developers are often able to provide ongoing community funding as part of the application

what dreamworld do you live in?

Scout Moor (second largest land wind farm in the UK) had £30k for to be soent over 10years on environmental projects (not a penny spent as far as I am aware)

latest planning application for adjacent windfarm (Coronation Power) is going through with a max of £100k going to local school projects on the condition that planning is approved first time or else nothing. So far it's been approved with no section 106 conditions.

Scout Moor part 2 (Peel Energy) no known local funding proposed

you will get 2/3 of sod all from a wind farm development because they know they can railroad it through anyway

i love the idea of a chairlift, but it would need more Dh trails to justify it, and to spread the riders out to reduce trail wear.

i'd rather see more swoopy 'blue' Xc trails.

as it is now, most mtbers are blokes, who need to get a party-pass for the weekend from their girlfriend/wife/kids/boyfriend so they can go biking for the weekend.

this sucks.

more blue trails means more opportunity to ride bikes [u]with[/u] your better half.

how much for a chair-lift + Dh trails* at inners? £5million? £10million? something like that.

how much for a swoopy blue? (like the one at Glentress) £500,000? £1million (for a really good one)

for the price of 1 chairlift, you can have 10 more 'blue' trails - perfect for the wife/girlfriend/kids** who aren't up for a steep sketchy red.

(*they'd need to be built properly for them to survive the amount of traffic needed to financially support the chairlift)

(**and anyone else who thinks that 'electric blue' or 'berm baby berm' is at least as much fun as spooky wood)

people do get funding from windfarms, there's one i know about near duns (blackhill), but it's not huge amounts/for massive projects as far as i understand - up to £15k, and for non-profit

there are other ways of funding, but there's no way they would not have investigated these thoroughly..

Hmm weird maybe SBC aren't so big on community benefits. Certainly in many LA's it is required? I would have thought there would be a right broo ha if a developer was bypassing community benefit.

personally i wish them luck but my experience of anyone judging visitor numbers is its tricky at best and its easy to make a complete balls up of it. look at the GT visitor numbers (not to mention the much maligned Glentress Peel centre). Even their revised figure of 385k visitors a year is rubbish. an average of more than 1000 visitors a day? really?

[url= http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/Year1report-Addendum.pdf/$FILE/Year1report-Addendum.pdf ]source[/url]

this data is now 3 years old too and i'll bet the economy has not helped boost visitor numbers.

what i'm saying is its easy to make "predictions" and estimate traffic, but they have to be realitsic if they want to convert these estimated figures into paying customers. In this economic climate people wont be spending 20 weekends a year downhilling with uplift, certainly not in the volumes that would make a 5 million pound chairlift viable.

How many would they realistically need to make it viable?

If somewhere like Carron Valley can get 10,000 visitors per year (

CARRONVALLEY.ORG.UK "http://www.carronvalley.org.uk/pdfs/counters_and_research.pdf"

) surely dedicated downhill faciltiies with proper uplift would get at least the same amount, if not substantially more.

10,000 x £30 = £300,000 of revenue each year

Does anyone know how much it costs to staff and maintain a chairlift once you're beyond the initial outlay? Surely it can be done for £300k and still have something left for either repaying loans for the initial outlay or ongoing trail maintenance.

i still think that local bikeshops / BnB's / pubs / cafes / skills instructors would get more out of a £500,000 innerleithen blue route, than a £5,000,000 chairlift...

Everyone just goes to GT for blue trails though.

Which raises the question - would it be better to go for uplift (and new DH trails) at Glentress given that there is already a cafe, shop, car park etc?

paulrockliffe - Member

Everyone just goes to GT for blue trails though.

but there's only 1, it's at Glentress, it's not enough for a weekend's riding if you're not ready/willing for a red route*.

if there were 2 (with one at innerleithen), you have a weekend family destination.

yes, i know there are 'natural' trails/paths, but as with most natural trails, they're often hidden / boring / far too hard / difficult to piece together into suitable loop, or a combination of the above.

(*a lot of people find them harder than you might think)

Does anyone know how much it costs to staff and maintain a chairlift once you're beyond the initial outlay? Surely it can be done for £300k and still have something left for either repaying loans for the initial outlay or ongoing trail maintenance.

loan repayments for 5 million will be most of that. staffing will be £50 000 pa at a very bare minimum - probably double that.

Does anyone know how much it costs to staff and maintain a chairlift once you're beyond the initial outlay? Surely it can be done for £300k and still have something left for either repaying loans for the initial outlay or ongoing trail maintenance.

I dont have a scooby doo how much it would cost, but i suspect 300k wouldn't go very far as TJ says loan repayments, staff, infrastructure and grounds / trail maintenance etc.

I think the fundamental issue is that there was a golden opportunity for private investors to make this happen prior to the economic collapse and nobody did it. That tells me that the private sector was not interested or it wasn't worth their while. If the private sector couldn't make it fly i doubt a community based enterprise will, especially given the economic outlook.

I'm not knocking them for trying and you have to respect their desire for it to happen, but just because lots of people think its a good idea doesn't automatically make it a successful business opportunity.

Part of my point earlier was that its fine having estimated numbers (and the CV numbers are estimates, but we did publish the methodology used, and we didn't include every tom dick and harry who came through the forest gate :)) but you have to make a commercial decision based on an assumption that that 10,000 visitors would pay 30 quid every time for uplift (for example).

I'll bet if you canvasased the nevis range the number of repeat visitors is probably quite low. This means you have to have something to attract new visitors all the time to help keep the flow of money coming in. DH is a niche within a niche sport so uplift doesn't appeal to most people tbh.

Plus, when it came down to brass tacks there are loads of people out there who will be sitting saying "i'd happily pay 30 quid 20 times a year for uplift DH" but the reality is they wouldn't put their hand in their pocket more than two or three visits.

Its just too much of a commercial risk IMO.

I think the trouble is that this is in Scotland, which, by its location, makes it

Cold\muddy in winter
far away for lots of people

If you could build one near a cheap international airport (ie one serviced well by budget airlines), central for the UK population (I'm a south coast rider but wouldn't expect it down here), and built all the trails so they'd ride well in all weather, it could take off. You could make it a 'go to' location in the winter for riders throughout europe (in the same way the alps are the go to location in the summer).

Unfortunately inners doesn't tick that box. Best of luck to them, I'll be there the first week if it opens

i still think that local bikeshops / BnB's / pubs / cafes / skills instructors would get more out of a £500,000 innerleithen blue route, than a £5,000,000 chairlift...

Generally I agree. Better 10 new trails / investments of £50,000 than one chairlift for £5M.

Best of luck to them but I'd rather see a load more trails in multiple locations rather than a single uplift at one spot.

There is a slight supporting argument about creating an exemplar facility and not dragging trails down to the lowest common denominator. However, it's also the kind of rhetoric that has lead to some stupendous white elephants 😉

Whilst I also agree about the commercial sector not having done it before so it clearly can't be viable I'd just add that it's not your typical commercial venture when you have Forestry Commission involved. Not trying to be nasty, just an observation like 😉

Ironic that CV reserach is being quoted given what happened there.

Generally I agree. Better 10 new trails / investments of £50,000 than one chairlift for £5M.

for xc riders, yes, but for DH riders, they'd probably prefer the one-off investment in a lift and a single trail, more trails can be added later. Whistler's single lower lift provides 49 (i think) trails, all dh-oriented, but some xc-able, and is busy all the time its open (at around £25/day after multi-day discounts).

it'd not be hard to add a load of lift-assisted xc into the mix, if the space was there. It'd not suit everyone, but some could argue there's enough investment in xc riding already?

I think a 'blue' lift assisted xc trail could be a massive success in getting people out onto the trails

The plans do include an xc route or two as well - and there is some already there.

whistler has snow as well in the winter does it not? Innerleithan would have to stand alone on MTB usage - thats the issue and there is not really the room for 50+ trails anyway.

The issue is simply one of visitor numbers. It would need hundreds of people a day every day of the year to be viable. How many people would be paying on a miserable winters wednesday?

The only way it could be done is with massive subsidy. Think a million a year as well as writing off the capital cost

...I think a 'blue' lift assisted xc trail could be a massive success in getting people out onto the trails...

or, just design the climbs so that they're fun too, My Girlfriend loves the climbs at G-T and Ae.

(gentle gradient, use switchbacks, include features)

don't get me wrong, i'd love to see a chairlift. But there are cheaper/easier steps that could be taken to give the local tourist industry a massive boost.

A swoopy blue at innerleithen for example, it'd be ace, i could take my dad/nephew/girlfriend to stay in Inners/Peebles for the weekend, and we'd all have 2 great days out.

(and spend a load of money on accomodation, food, innertubes, coaching, etc.)

as it is now, there's no point taking them there for the weekend; what would we ride on the sunday? - my dad's 70, my nephew is 6, and my girlfriend is still a bit of novice.

If you spend £5M on getting a lift in then I suspect it'll be an even bigger struggle to get yet more cash to build even more trails. If the economics are already stretched trying to justify the installation itself, there's unlikley to be "spare" revenue to pay for more trail development, nevermind basic upkeep / wear & tear due to increased numbers.

So you're talking £5M + however much to achieve something that appeals to the widest cross section of riders. As others have said DH's a pretty small niche, of sport overall and even, some might argue, of MTBing (if you accept it is part of that wider group, call it what you like, folks on bikes 😉

It is tricky balancing mass appeal, accessibility and stuff that provides challenge or opportunity for progression. I still fall on the side of building loads of quality stuff accessible for lots of people compared to one chairlift. You'd certainly want to see some far reaching commitments form the land manager / owners to the future maintenance and development / expansion of the location. Is that in place or is it an assumption it'll happen.

You've got to bear in mind FC'll have to be dealt with.

The only way it could be done is with massive subsidy. Think a million a year as well as writing off the capital cost

Apply the same logic to GT or any of the other Stanes? Are any of them actualy financialy viable on their own or do they rely on a subsidy?

nothing on that sort of scale in terms of subsidy. No staff needed to run th trails, no massive capitol investment, no large ongoing maintenance bill

£6million just for the cafe/bike shop apparently

The £5m capital funding from Forestry Commission Scotland is supported with £200k from Sport Scotland and £740k from Scottish Enterprise.

nothing on that sort of scale in terms of subsidy. No staff needed to run th trails, no massive capitol investment, no large ongoing maintenance bill

Hang on, have you seen the finances for GT or the like. Or FC(S) and the Borders trails? Ought to be careful about such a sweeping statement.

There has been significant capital investment to develop the Stanes (European funding), there are staff (and all the associate expenses of kit, existence etc) and there's always (AFAIK) been a bone of contention that the trails were put in and there wasn't a sufficient or appropriate allowance for ongoing maintenance. Also, how do you think the numerous rebuilds etc have been achieved and new additions.

Might not be same scale as imagined for an uplift at Inners but if we're criticising the proposal for a lack of reality lets not get too caught up in the fact that although comparitively cheap (to £5M) it hasn't been "free" to develop the rest of the Stanes.

whilst the alps/whistler do have a high-paying winter season to provide funding, they also have 4 months of 'downtime' per year. a lift for year-round biking wouldn't suffer from that.

incidentally, i just got back from Armenia, there was a lift there as part of a small town's public transport system (ie not a tourist attraction). Each way was a massive..

7pence.

They may have lower overheads, and cheap labor, but things can be made cheap 🙂

Actualy, off the 7stanes website this time.............

it has a brand new state of the art [b]£8.5m[/b] visitor centre with the following facilities:

•Car parks and bike wash
•Peel Gateway Building: Information, Toilets, Showers & Changing (open 9am – 6pm daily); Wild Watch Room (open 10am – 5pm daily)
•Glentress Peel Bikes operated by Alpine Bikes. Bike Shop and Bike Hire (open 9am - 6pm daily).
•Glentress Peel Café (open 10am – 5.30pm Mon to Fri and 9am – 6pm on Sat and Sun)

And £20/meter was mentioned upt here for trail building, GT has 50miles of trails, that's another £1.6million.

So GT has probably cost over £10million + maintenance.

And downhillers don't complain about braking bumps :-p

or, just design the climbs so that they're fun too, My Girlfriend loves the climbs at G-T and Ae.

(gentle gradient, use switchbacks, include features)

whilst that will help attract folks, I think if you advertised a destination with 'never have to pedal - outdoor fun for all the family', get it in the national rags, people will come from all directions. The idea of riding uphill on a bike is far worse (for a lot of people) than the reality, and I think this makes them stay away.

20 years to build the trails at GT.

Look - if this is such a good idea why has it remained only a pipe dream for so long? Because its simply not viable

thing is, 10 years ago you'd have said a £8m cafe at a trail center would have seemed like an impossible dream. Depends what each government feels like investing in

That will not have ongoing annual costs of many hundreds of thousands of pounds

To be honest £5 million isnt a lot of money when you look at the wider picture. Yes current numbers (downhillers) would make it look unfeasible but riding numbers would probably double at least if there was lift assisted riding if not more. Then factor in the all mountain (140mm travel +) crowd becasue in reality you dont need a downhill bike to ride most of it apart from the obvious bits and numbers increase dramatically I know myself and other members of my riding club 50 or so riders would love something like this. A day riding the red at glentress or a day with lift assisted trails I know what most would prefer. The only reason they dont get used now is becasue people cant be bothered to push up.Spending money on blues is all well and good to encourage new riders but there isn't much difference between them as there is only so much you can do to them before interesting features make it into a red. If they built more trails I know its more money on top of the lift cost based on fun flowy reds its makes it even more appealing to a wider audience yes downhillers may see this as them loosing out but it would be a fair compromise.

That will not have ongoing annual costs of many hundreds of thousands of pounds

lets say it's £150,000 to run an uplift, that only needs an average of 14 riders per day (at £30/pop) to make it completely self-sufficient. If Nevis can make it work, and cwm down run most days of the week (with 2 full busses at weekends), why couldn't somewhere else?

Also how does a xc trail generate funds to make it sustainable beside the £3 car parking fee it can't cover it all. How is glentress paying its loan back. I think the up keep of it is very feasible with even very low numbers as someone calculated earlier.

5lab I agree with you totally 14 riders a day is nothing especially as I stated earlier it will also appeal to all mountain riders me being one. If anything it more feasible than xc trails as it generates more income

one way to look at it is..

Average XC trail : 17 miles long
Average DH trail : 1.5 miles long

based on costs earlier, the xc trail would cost £273,700 to build
DH trail costs £24,150 to build

This would leave £250k per dh trail to put towards a lift. Build 10 of them and you've nearly paid for it 😀

"build it and they will come" - lot to be said for following a dream however mad it might seem - some of the best inventions have come that way!

one way to look at it is..

Average XC trail : is ridden on an AM bike
Average DH trail : should be ridden on an AM bike

yeti - not sure of your point? there's a load of dh trails that wouldn't be much fun on an AM bike, but a trail center with lift could build trails for all abilities (as whistler\sun peaks\silverstar, for example)

A point? Errrm...

Just that it's all mountain biking really and people seem a little hung up on it being DH or XC when most own a bike capable of riding any of it. IMO there's only one DH course in the UK truly deserving of a full on DH bike and you'd still have fun riding it on a hardtail.

Out of interest does 'mechanical' exclude a minibus?

Do FC not harvest trees for a living ❓
Inners must be due to be harvested at some point in the future 😈

druidh - Member
Which raises the question - would it be better to go for uplift (and new DH trails) at Glentress given that there is already a cafe, shop, car park etc?

All this is wonderful and heartwarming, but the dull reality is still there; the Tweed valley is not surrounded by huge mountains, its not that scenic, its got pretty poor transport links and the DH tracks are short, however sweet..
The idea that building a lift will suddenly produce a thousand new downhillers is pretty far fetched too. Add in the problems and increasing costs of transport from any major conurbation in the UK and little tiny wee doubts have to emerge.
Consider also the impact on other DH tracks around the UK, are you going to pay a substantial fee to establish and support a lift at Innerleithen then ride anywhere else?

It's a project that will benefit the downhill scene with some small knock on local effects, with little thought for anyone else.

I'd want see real numbers; how many people will actually pay up front to finance it?

Crikey how many trail centres have good transport links there all in the middle of nowhere come to think of it most descent riding is in the middle of nowhere so transport aint the issue here. As for not getting at least 1000 new riders using the trails I would expect that as the minimum as noted in several posts you open it to a much wider audience ie 140mm travel bikes who cant be bothered with push ups. More riders can only be good for the local community not harm it as it would generate much more income bars, hotels, restaurants especially when a lot of them are struggling to break even now. The only real point you make is it will mean people using other places less which would harm investment in them but that also contradicts your point about not getting 1000 new riders.
by the way im not a downhiller but would still love to see something like this happen as it can only develop the sport and attract new people to it

how many trail centres have good transport links

The M4 seems pretty handy for those that live in London and want to get to Cwm Carn...

Until there are actual figures and actual costs, its a vanity project for about 350 downhillers, I'm afraid.

there's a load of dh trails that wouldn't be much fun on an AM bike

You probably are quite mistaken about what AM bike is then...
Plus what is wrong with pedalling your bike uphill.

how many trail centres have good transport links

M6 covers loads too.

There is just not enough to justify this, be nice if it did but even doubly the current riders wouldn't pay. A nice pipe dream that's been discussed for what over decade?

First I'll admit to not being a number cruncher, I'll leave that to others.

But I also think all this talk of DH is missing the point. I love riding my trail bike up & down but I will happily drive to France/Italy, etc to enjoy an uplift as do thousands of Brits.

For the project to really stand a chance the trails would have to follow the Whistler principle of having rideable lines for all.

With multiple lines for all then people would happily travel. Have I also not read about people doing a bit off snowboarding there on the odd occasion?

I live near Bradford and there's a chap near me who runs skiing/boarding in his field when the snows right. So pretty sure Inners could open on powder days 🙂

IMO there's only one DH course in the UK truly deserving of a full on DH bike and you'd still have fun riding it on a hardtail.

I take it you haven't seen the Glencoe course?

lucien - Member

"build it and they will come" -

I agree ,but I think it would certainly need a combination of private finance with sympatheic government and local authority support to make it work and therein lies the problem.Edinburgh trams anyone??
How did the many ski resorts start and how were their lifts,roads and infrastructure funded,same goes for the many Greek and Spanish holiday resorts that needed airports and infrastructure too. No way will/can the taxpayer fund something like this and there isn't that much private capital around in the current economic climate either. Any lottery winning MTBers out there looking to invest? 🙂

I agree ,but I think it would certainly need a combination of private finance with sympatheic government and local authority support to make it work and therein lies the problem.Edinburgh trams anyone??
How did the many ski resorts start and how were their lifts,roads and infrastructure funded,same goes for the many Greek and Spanish holiday resorts that needed airports and infrastructure too. No way will/can the taxpayer fund something like this and [b]there isn't that much private capital around in the current economic climate either.[/b] Any lottery winning MTBers out there looking to invest?

This mob managed to get over £700k from a variety of sources to build trails

http://www.callendarestate.co.uk/EZ/ce/ce/index.php

Whilst I'd agree you can ride any trail on any bike, a more matched bike will make it more fun. I did the sdw in a day on my 45lb freeride rig, thus proving that all xc bikes are rubbish outside of a competetive environment 🙂

However to be successful I think this would have to have as much lift assisted xc as 'true' dh. From either perspective, I suspect that if there's a lift, trailmonkeys will appear to build up trails