Affordable TI bikes/frames – are they worth it as not so light weight?

Hi, so am looking for a light-ish hardtail trail bike (may build with a premium frame) with me selling an ultra light carbon xc bike that is 10kg and not enough travel etc.

Like the idea of a titanium bike but frames are thin on the ground.

The Titus fireline seems great value but the build is 13.4Kg???

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBTIFLGX/titus-fireline-sram-gx-titanium-mountain-bike

Then you look at Stanton bikes and for the same sort of money you get their Ti frame only: https://www.stantonbikes.com/product/sherpa-ti/ – with no weight published.

Am I right in saying you need to spend the money here to get a decent light Ti frame?

Seems some steel builds can weigh less than 13.4, could the best option maybe be going for a Sherpa Gen 3 with Reynolds 853 steel?

Thanks – Ad

Full bike weights are obviously going to vary massively, I doubt you could find a similar Ti frame that was lighter than the Titus by the difference between the 35 fork and a Pike for example.

On the basis that Stanton don’t say where the frames are made, I’d feel confident guessing they’re probably from the same couple of factories as everyone else (Walty or XCAD), if it were Lynksey or someone UK or even EU based they’d be shouting about it.

FWIW I’m not convinced it’s possible to build a really nice steel frame post-CEN. And haven’t ridden either of those Ti options. I do have a Scandal with the same build kit (but with Fulcrum wheels) as the Titus and it’s a nice ride though.

Pretty sure Stanton frames are now all UK made theyve been quite vocal about it over the last year….

All our UK frames are designed, fabricated, welded, painted in the heart of England.

Planet X have their medium GX Scandal at 13kg. The medium GX Vandal, which is the titanium version of the bike, weighs in at 13.4kg.
Not a huge difference, but not what I’d have expected.

I assume there are other advantages to using Titanium rather than aluminium, or is it just looks and prestige?

My (simplistic) view is Ti frames give you the supple ride feel of steel with the weight of aluminium.

The super light Ti bikes of days past are not common because the weight reduction came at the cost of strength. I don’t think many Ti frames weigh much less than Al frames – certainly not close to the carbon weights.

@monkeyboyjc – read that statement again.

I think Stanton made a couple of dozen Ti frames in the UK before they lost their Ti welder to his dream aerospace job. I think they’re now made by Waltly, like 90%* of the Ti frames sold in the UK.

Obviously, tubing spec, gussets, headtube, gussets, joints, fancy doo-dads, warranty period will vary, along with cost and weight.

* Well-informed industry hearsay.

I’ve got the same medium fancy Waltly made frame as a mate. Mine’s got EX 511, Wild Enduros, Helm Air. It’s a fair sight heavier than his with Crests, SIDs and various carbon bits.

The frame’s probably only 2kg of that 13.4kg build.

FWIW. I had a ti Fireline and was very underwelmed. Sold it and built up a Stooge. Very different but much more fun.

I have two Ti frames ,had three crack,two Van Nics that were replaced without any hassle,the third an old custom one I will have repaired one day if( Enigma ever have a space).The third Van Nic (Tuareg) is holding up fine and is a lovely bike.As seriousrikk says,they can be a very supple ride and feel great when pushing it hard.However (IMO) ,carbon frames are so good these days that I can’t really see myself ever going down the Ti route again.I will still use the VN until it cracks or I get too old to ride a hardtail 😉

My first Ti frame was bought for lightness. That was at a time I was searching out all the lightest weight kit I could find. Pace RC31 C-types, XTR drivetrain, carbon bits, all of that. I still have it now, running singlespeed.

Next was a VN Amazon. Again , I was looking to shave weight. This time from the lovely, but lardy, Kona Sutra I’d been riding and frankly, there wasn’t a lot of choice in disk-braked road/CX frames around 12 years ago. I still have that one too.

From there on in, weight saving hasn’t been the primary goal when choosing the subsequent 3 Ti frames. As already said, so much can be done with carbon these days. That’s what I’d be looking at if weight was my major concern.

I think ti frames have a reputation for breaking so we expect them to come with longer warranties.

To offset the cost of replacements (see above examples) some manufacturers (I think) have started over engineering the frames to strengthen them which means they are roughly the same weight as aluminium but 5 times the price or more.

The ti manufacturers that don’t do this just increase the price to cover replacements.

Ti frames do look great but a raw alliminium frame looks nearly as good. (in my opinion)

I was looking at the ribble CGR alliminium frames vs the ti frames and it’s about 80g in it and 1/3 of the price.

1680g for alliminium £600 and 1600g ti for £1800. 3 year warranty on both.

I like titanium as opposed to carbon or aluminium for a bike that gets exposed to grit and mud.  My commuter is a PX Tempest (2×20 mile commute couple of times a week) and it also doubles as a gravel bike on local grotty bridleways.

Not having to worry about cable rub (or even muddy tyre rub) is good.

The price I got it for from PX 18 months ago is cheaper than equivalent PX carbon today – by some way.

I’ve a ti frame – it’s ti because I wanted custom geo at an affordable price that was lighter than steel with similar ride characteristics.

Has anyone got a Spa Cycles Elan Ti? They get decent reviews but I’m yet to see a real life long term review. 10yr warranty sounds good though. I reckon it’d make an ideal gravel/light tourer/all-rounder

I think the Stantons are made by Orro in Taiwan. Tubeset alone cost £900 (double/ triple butted) so not economic to build custom at their price point in UK

Why not buy a frame direct from Waltly? I’ve done it a few times and previously XACD. I’ve been riding titanium for over 20 years – I have 4 currently – and never had one break. The problem with low end frames from the likes of P-X is that they cut corners in their design and fabrication that makes them more succeptible to fatigue failures – manipulated/dented chain stays and thick plate drop-outs.

Tubeset alone cost £900 (double/ triple butted) so not economic to build custom at their price point in UK

Not sure that alone justifies the price difference. The Titus it triple butted too.

With my cynical hat on I suspect the cost difference comes down to it being priced higher (Veblen goods). Stanton have always been priced higher than the competition. Same with Cotic. No idea which factory Stanton were made in before they onshored some of it, but Cotic were made at Maxway, same as Stooge (similar pricing), Singular (similar pricing) and On-One (half the price despite being more complicated to manufacture with the dekerf style rear end).

Has anyone got a Spa Cycles Elan Ti? They get decent reviews but I’m yet to see a real life long term review. 10yr warranty sounds good though. I reckon it’d make an ideal gravel/light tourer/all-rounder

A mate had one and loved it – was stolen a couple of months ago, delivery for groupset means he won’t be replacing it with another one till 2022

Tubeset alone cost £900

I think someone’s been stretching the truth a little there…that’s the price of a frame ex-factory

I ride a TI sonder brokenroad. If ever buying again I would buy a frame and build up. Heavy to start but down to 11kg roughly now in size xl. Can hit 10 kg with the travers carbon fork in it.

Seems some steel builds can weigh less than 13.4, could the best option maybe be going for a Sherpa Gen 3 with Reynolds 853 steel?

Can’t help on the Ti question, but my 17” 853 Gen 3 Sherpa final build weight is 12.2 kg. And it rides like a dream. (You could bring it under 12 kg as it wasn’t a weight weenies build).

I’ve a ti frame – it’s ti because I wanted custom geo at an affordable price that was lighter than steel with similar ride characteristics

Same here, from my limited research there was only one Chinese builder offering butted tubing which was a bit of a surprise.
For reference my 29er frame came in at 2150g with sliding dropouts, it certainly “rides”lighter and feels more sprightly then the steel frame it’s based on (Kona).

The problem with Titanium, is that aside from the expense, it’s very hard to work with and requires very clean working conditions. It’s popular for bicycle frames, because it’s seen as ‘exotic’, mainly due to the expense. Yes, a Titanium frame can be made lighter than a steel one, and retain similar strength, but it may also be less stiff (that may be a desirable characteristic). It’s real advantages are in its corrosion resistance, and its high fatigue strength; it can bend and bend and not break, unlike Aluminium which weakens when it’s bent. So, very good for springs/applications where springiness is a favourable characteristic. But the problematic nature of working with it, means that it’s very difficult to keep costs down, so either the cost of a frame will be relatively very high, or corners will be cut. The latter option is increasingly popular amongst brands who offer ‘cheap’ Titanium frames. This is why you will see quite a few accounts of Titanium frames breaking; they haven’t been made properly. At the finish, steel is still the better material for making a strong bicycle frame. Newer alloys such as 853 can be made into frames approaching similar weights to Titanium (although CEN testing won’t pass those, as the tests are inappropriate for bicycle frames), and 931 stainless tubing offers the same corrosion resistant properties as Titanium. As for the fabled ‘ride’ of Titanium frames; I suspect that someone who has paid a lot of money for a bicycle frame might just have at least a subconscious disposition to ‘feel’ a difference. Things like tyres, tyre pressures, grips, saddles etc would have a far greater effect on the actual ‘feel’ of a bike. And if it is flexing to the point you can feel it, then it may be more comfortable, but with that lower stiffness comes lower mechanical efficiency; you’re losing power as energy is lost in that flexing.

I’d still love a Titanium framed bike though.

The latter option is increasingly popular amongst brands who offer ‘cheap’ Titanium frames. This is why you will see quite a few accounts of Titanium frames breaking; they haven’t been made properly. At the finish, steel is still the better material for making a strong bicycle frame.

Dunno about others’ opinions, but my thoughts on cracking titanium frames probably start with Lynskey. Hardly cheap, and not a recent pheonomenon.

Newer alloys such as 853 can be made into frames approaching similar weights to Titanium

When 853 was introduced, over a quarter of a century ago, mountain bikes looked like the ones below. It’s only modern if you start the timeline with wrought iron.

And it still gets nowhere near Ti weight. You could if you ignored CEN get down to modern Ti bike weights, but then Ti could then probably lose a lb too if you ignored CEN.

There’s also an issue that you run up against a point with steel that lightweight isn’t stiff enough anymore. That’s why you don’t see 931/953 mountainbikes, and not actually all that many full 853 ones, you hit the point where you just need more material. Ti still has the advantage of being about half the density so fatter stiffer tubes don’t have the same drawbacks. At the extreme end you could build it with aluminium tubeset dimensions, and aluminium frame weights (their density is comparable), but the result would be about twice as strong as the skinnier steel equivelent.

And “Downhill” was still interested in stuff like this:

so much can be done with carbon these days. That’s what I’d be looking at if weight was my major concern.

Best tool for the job at hand, IMO.

Like the idea of a titanium bike

What do you like about it? The aesthetics? Which is totally fine BTW. Just wondering.

I have an 853 singlespeed with carbon forks, seatpost and bars, Hope/Crest 26″ wheels. It’s about a kilo heavier than my Ti Gradient, which has 2x GRX Di2, alloy drops and 43mm tyres on Hunt wheels. I was quite surprised by that.

Aesthetics, yes, a bit. Truth is though that a nicely painted carbon / alu frame can be very attractive too (I’m not a fan of skinny steel frames regardless of their paint finishes.

Ride. I get that some folk say they can’t tell the difference. The frames I own / have owned definitely benefit from being made of Titanium.

Longevity. Yeah, I know, but two of my frames are over 12 years old and would pass for new after a quick going-over with some Brasso/Duraglit. I’ve yet to come across a painted finish that could compete on those grounds.

so much can be done with carbon these days. That’s what I’d be looking at if weight was my major concern.

Best tool for the job at hand, IMO.

You can do a lot with carbon shapes but 3d printing is bridging the gap!

When 853 was introduced, over a quarter of a century ago, mountain bikes looked like the ones below. It’s only modern if you start the timeline with wrought iron.

And it still gets nowhere near Ti weight. You could if you ignored CEN get down to modern Ti bike weights, but then Ti could then probably lose a lb too if you ignored CEN.

There’s also an issue that you run up against a point with steel that lightweight isn’t stiff enough anymore. That’s why you don’t see 931/953 mountainbikes, and not actually all that many full 853 ones, you hit the point where you just need more material. Ti still has the advantage of being about half the density so fatter stiffer tubes don’t have the same drawbacks. At the extreme end you could build it with aluminium tubeset dimensions, and aluminium frame weights (their density is comparable), but the result would be about twice as strong as the skinnier steel equivelent.

853 is ‘newer’ than 531. You could ‘lose’ weight from a Titanium frame, sure, but then it won’t be at all stiff enough for actual use. Yes, you can make a Titanium frame as strong as a steel one for less weight, or stronger, for the same weight. But steel is still going to be much easier to work with; a backstreet welder can fix a broken steel frame perfectly adequately; finding a competent Titanium welder in say rural Mexico or Zambia, might be a little more difficult. And the main reason you don’t see 931/953/Stainless MTBs, certainly not from the ‘mainstream’ brands, is because the tubing is relatively expensive, and it is harder to do ‘right’ than ‘lower grade’ steels. So more to do with economies of scale than unsuitability; there are plenty of custom builders producing MTB frames using Stainless steel, they’ll just cost you getting towards Titanium prices.

https://www.saffronframeworks.com/build/joe-burts-29-er/

A very rough reckoning suggests a frame like that would cost around £4500-5000. That’s an awful lot for a steel frame; you can get Titanium custom frames made for less. But it can at least be fixed by a bloke in a railway arch…

Cotic were made at Maxway, same as Stooge (similar pricing), Singular (similar pricing) and On-One (half the price despite being more complicated to manufacture with the dekerf style rear end).

Maxway don’t make Cotic’s TW frames. Never seen any On-Ones there either but they buy from a lot of different suppliers, may have done in the past.

There’s also an issue that you run up against a point with steel that lightweight isn’t stiff enough anymore. That’s why you don’t see 931/953 mountainbikes, and not actually all that many full 853 ones, you hit the point where you just need more material.

I had a great 953 hardtail a while back when 120mm forks were all you wanted on a HT. 3.6lbs I think. Rode really well, just too expensive to produce.
imo you’re probably not going to hit a point where it’s not stiff enough unless you’re going very long and fitting big forks, the problem tends to be dent resistance (or fear of dents anyway) from going to thinner walls and larger diameters. 953 gets past some of that. And 853 is well suited for larger, thinner tubes for stiffness at a given weight (or lower weight), more so than 525//CrMo. 931 is like a stainless version of 853 at least in basic strength.

And if it is flexing to the point you can feel it, then it may be more comfortable, but with that lower stiffness comes lower mechanical efficiency; you’re losing power as energy is lost in that flexing.

Still haven’t seen anything that backs that up either way. You might loose some response reaction to frame flex if you’re a big power pedal mashing sprinter, or you might gain some sort of biomechanic efficiency or comfort if you’re a smooth, fluid-pedaling distance rider. I don’t believe there’s inherent power loss in normal ranges of frame flex though, and I think the bike media who go on about power delivery when they mean response to power could go and test how very stiff frames might actually be working against many of us. I’d certainly rather have some flex rather than no flex, for a hill climb bike or any other.
Thing is it’s easier for a brand to say that stiffness should be as high as possible since only a custom builder can optimise frame stiffness for me. A mass-produced bike can’t do that so we just get this ‘12% stiffer’ data every time a new gen frame comes out. Next it’ll be tuned stiffness as the very stiffest bikes are sidelined. Flex that’s right for the rider is such a big part of ride quality imo.

I’d definitely be guided by length of warranty. Some companies will only give you 2 or 3 years on Ti frames.

What does that say about the manufacturer/retailers confidence in the product?

There are 5-10 year warranties out there at reasonable money or lifetime if you want to pay Moots prices.

https://www.vannicholas.com/service/warranties

10 years with Sonder. Big slice of the decision to press “buy”

Bridges is right. As a general rule – the only reason to go ti is because it looks nice.

Yep, you don’t buy Ti for weight or ride characteristics as these are far more achievable with other materials. You buy it because it’s always shiny and you can sort out scratches with scotchbrite.

I’d definitely be guided by length of warranty. Some companies will only give you 2 or 3 years on Ti frames.

Planet x ti frames carry a 2 year warranty. Titus ti frames sold by planet x come with lifetime warranties.

I don’t understand why anyone would buy a PX ti bike over a Titus ti bike when they are similar priced and spec.

All Planet X, On-One, Viner, Holdsworth and Selcof products carry a 2-year warranty as standard for the original owner (Titus titanium bike frames feature a lifetime warranty as standard for the original owner).

Define “lifetime” in this context.

@scotroutes

Define “lifetime” in this context.

Its planet x! 🤣 That would be impossible! But they arent the only company that does it.

I messaged planet X, warranty is the same for both…

Am now steering towards a YETI ARC T-SERIES carbon frame, circa £1300 much lighter with rave reviews…

Ti does look lovely, but I want a light and fast bike, the priority and Yeti I trust more to make a well sorted frame ATM perhaps.