[Closed] A shambolic week with Sierra Cycling

Whatever the veracity of the OPs post (and I tend to believe him) the response by Sierra Cycling is a textbook example of how not to do it. Complacent, unapologetic and forgetting who is paying who money.

I've never been on an MTB holiday, but go on 3 ski trips a year, and every now and then you find someone who seems to feel the punters are getting in the way of them having fun or a quiet life. Some people are simply not cut out to run small chalet/travel operations. I'd be one of them btw.

Ciclo Montana - Great riding, great hosts,great weather !

Nuff said (10th-17th sept 2011

is this the end is it over..

Whatever the veracity of the OPs post (and I tend to believe him) the response by Sierra Cycling is a textbook example of how not to do it.

+1

For me the critical issue still outstanding is the illegal trails riding?? Which wasn't covered in the initial response from SC?? Perhaps the most crucial issue?

This has all reminded me why I don't do organised trips. Went on a trip a few years (with a now defunt company in North America) where a lot of simmilar stuff (haphazard transport, guides falling ill, lack of riding time so doing stuff just off the map) happened and put me off organized trips for life. Although strangely still happy doing both kayak guided trips and guided mountaineering (in the right place).

Think the OP presented a balanced view of their week though would have been better had they articulated their discussion with the owner in the 1st post.

Alan's reply is deeply unprofessional for a business owner in what is essentially a service industry. He may be tired of the job, he may be struggling to make ends meet, he may be having personal problems but despite his testimonials he won't be in business for much longer with that attitude.

I think that biking holidays are a growing market that will start to become much more competitive as I don't think it will grow as big as the snowsports industry. The guides are much more important on a bike trip and it sounds like he has lost his main asset, wonder why? Compare the described attitude with 1 you get from your chalet hosts on a ski trip.

Anyway, thanks OP for a very useful bit of info which has been backed up by others who whilst they may not have had as poor a trip as yours sound like they were only a bus breakdown away from it.

I would be gutted if after spending a lot of money I was ignored by my 'hosts' it just sounds like a complete nightmare.
Had a poor experience skiing in Bulgaria years back, in the end we just left the guide/teacher to it and did our own thing.

I used to work as a walking guide in the Alps for Rambler's Holidays and I've read the OP and the reply with interest. It looks to me as if the operator has lost interest in the job and his personal relationships (that's how it comes across anyway) because there's no spark of enthusiasm, which is what oils the wheels on an activity holiday. Running this kind of activity week after week through a season takes a huge amount of energy both physical and emotional, it's like teaching (which I also did in Spain) and if you lose that "spark" you are on the way to failing.

I've worked overseas probably four years of my life and over seven if you count business trips in later life. While travelling you come across all kinds of people who couldn't really do a conventional job back home but have managed to carve themselves some kind of niche in a foreign country, by virtue of being different from the locals.

Why is it fine for people to bang on about a great experience in the public domain but not a shitty one? I bet Sierra Cycling have never complained when receiving positive reports for the world to see.

You can take this guy as a moaning ninny, or you can take the chance to act on some real honest feedback and move your business on to the next level.

Why is it fine for people to bang on about a great experience in the public domain but not a shitty one?

I used to frequent a northampton saints forum where if anyone dared to criticise the players/coaches, they were jumped on for being negative, even if it was constructive criticism...makes for a very sterile forum IMHO

I rode with S C about 8 years ago and it would seem that Alan hasn't changed his business model at all.
We had a large mixed group with about 10 people and for most of the week only one guide, the mini bus was only used a couple of times as we got the impression that it was a pain to use it and the local/doorstep trails were easier for him . Our guide was called Adam I think and he was later joined by a girl called Anna.. We were new to riding and riding holidays but still decided to do the English thing and keep quiet and not return. Alan seemed to be a bit of a miserable bugger from the little I remember seeing him.

a negative review and a response from the company is, personally, more telling than any positive review.

unfortunately for SC, the negative review was pretty balanced and thought out, and the response was quite revealing in my humble opinion.

[img] [/img]

To the OP: I generally do a couple of these types of holidays a year and it's very useful to have an impression of your trip, thanks.

I've been on something like 12 or 13 guided MTB holidays now. One of the first things that inevitably gets discussed when you meet the people you'll be riding with is which other trips they've been on. Usually at least one person has been with Sierra Cycling and those words inevitably seem to be accompanied by a wry smile and a raised eyebrow...

I was on a trip last week with a couple who were very impressed by the setup at Bike Verbier - I'm sure you will have a fantastic week there. I'm considering MountainBike Kerala next year too, so would be very interested to hear what that trip is like...

Anyone think that having a biking version of Trip Adviser might be a good sticky on here or would it pi55 off the Singletrack advertisers who would be forced to raise their game and therefore get pulled.

As a former guide (diving guide) it is no excuse to say to paying customers that you cant deal with the unforseable problems.

They pay you to do just that and have back up plans for your back up plans.

So if your bloody mini bus brakes down, or your guide is ill you call on the backup plan. FFS, its not hard to go through all the senarios and potential problems and even the unpredictable ones and come up with a plan for them. Unpredictable just means you cant predict them, not that you cant imagine them. Its not rocket science, its bloody guiding on mountain bikes.

Thats what a professional company should do and thats what paying customers should expect to get. The OP did the right thing telling us about his experience and we are now better informed since the response from SC.

all im saying is Faulty Towers.

Whilst I sympathise with the difficulties that are faced by small businesses, there is simply no excuse to blame unforseen circumstances on what is quite evident a multitude of failures that the OP encountered durig their week away.

I also agree with the majority on here that if you have a bad experience you should feel free to share with everyone just like you would if you had a good experience. I think the OP put across a very balanced and fair review of their experience which unfortunately seems to have been met with very blunt and uncaring response.

Trimix is on the money.

I can't see anything wrong with what the OP said. Just his own experience that wasn't great.

I had a similar one a few years ago in the Maritime Alps. Great when you're in the van and the guides are arguing... We were made to feel really unwelcome by the main guide and it felt like he couldn't be arsed that week and the whole thing was a chore for him (obviously taking our money wasn't a chore). I didn't say much on here as you just get fanboys chiming in saying how great they are and how wrong I was. I just voted with my wallet.

And from my experience the best outfits seem to be those in France. Maybe that has something to do with the rules/regs/laws etc for running an outfit there. Seems in Italy and Spain anybody can rock up and start a MTB holiday company.. I could be wrong of course. 😛

Hello Mistermouse, I'm adam. I'm really sorry to hear you did not have a great holiday with Sierra, but just a quick point of clarification if i may...i did work with Sierra Cycling as a guide for a summer, and really enjoyed it, but I'm guessing (perhaps hoping!) you must have been guided by someone else as I arrived after Anna had left? Its easy to get mixed up though as a lot of the people i guided had been before etc.

I had the pleasure of working alongside an excellent guide (and even better rider) called Tom. A hugely nice guy who was always thinking about the guest experience and if there was anything more he personally could do.

I wasn't going to post as I can't really add anything to the discussion about the here and now as my time there was relatively short, and a long time ago, but having seen my name out of context.....I felt i had to say something really.

Personally speaking, occasional bad days to one side i guess, i shudder to think of anyone having just bitten their lip (stiff, upper, british or otherwise) after having committed time and money to a holiday they were not happy with. I know Tom would too.

I cannot, and will not comment on any of the other guides, I never met or worked with them, but i would want everyone we rode with to know that Tom and I always went well eqquipped for the job. That is all really.

Adam, having had to go through the whole thread again to find your name check, there is no 'guilt by association'. Your reputation is safe and it sounds like you (and the Tom you mentioned) are exactly the type of guides people want.

OT - +1 Cycle Active in the Lakes ( just did TCL training ). Chris and Rich (we didn't meet John) are very welcoming, and have lots of experience.

I hope to guide one day, and if I get a lost person I would be very disappointed with myself - I'd give a full refund. I'd expect all staff to be friendly and helpful ... language barriers and learning routes are skills that can be acquired ... good attitudes go a long way IMO.

I've worked overseas probably four years of my life and over seven if you count business trips in later life. While travelling you come across all kinds of people who couldn't really do a conventional job back home but have managed to carve themselves some kind of niche in a foreign country, by virtue of being different from the locals.

Ditto that.

OT - +1 Cycle Active in the Lakes ( just did TCL training ).

Seems in Italy and Spain anybody can rock up and start a MTB holiday company.. I could be wrong of course.

In Spain at least IIRC you need the qualifications and insurance otherwise its a big fine (which is levied at the guests they catch you with as well!)

Switchbacks told us we always had to be with a guide as they had the relevant tickets as reps of the company.

TBH I don't think the sweeping generalisation about Spain is fair as I know Switchbacks had to jump through some sizeable hoops to operate where they do. And I found them faultless, miles away from the OP's experience.

In Spain at least IIRC you need the qualifications and insurance otherwise its a big fine (which is levied at the guests they catch you with as well!)

You do although for a long long time, there was only one company operating legally in Spain. I think most of the guiding companies there are now registered though.

There is a free bar why are people moaning 😕

I have been with SC a few times and have always enjoyed myself but I am firmly in the you get what you pay for camp!

Not the best reply from Alan and maybe its a kick up the pants his operation needs as it is all looking very tired his downfall is trying to cater for all abilities IMHO. Not a lot he can do about the guides though as good ones dont stay for ever an to keep the operation rolling along he has to put up with guides that have less get up and go as I know its not a well paid job for the effort and risk!!!

Cannot belive he can not get some young locals to take up the mantle seeing that unemployment is so high in that region.
Last point dont moan that Mary did not smile @ you, your lucky you did not get a Glasgow Kiss :D.

Rich

Best bike holidays are ones you plan youre self. No guides. Just need a map and a bit of local knowledge that you can find on the net 🙂

Interesting thread, my view is that the customer should not be aware of any shortfall in the service or problems you are having. If you have to make a loss on a particular week because of a faulty van or sick guide-- absorb it. Probably a lot cheaper, in the long run.

I guess with an awful lot of holiday firms is they know you are only there for 5 full days . Arrival and departure day is pretty much taken up with airport runs and check in queues etc, same for departure day .
This leaves 5 days in whic to entertain the punters . Its probably easy to fall into a routine and maybe take things abit easy . As an employee in a holiday resort it must be harder to keep professional , whist others are enjoying themselves .
If things to go wrong ( I have been on the recieving end with a ski chalet girl who couldnt even make scrambled eggs ) in 5 days a different group will be along .
Before the intereweb this didnt matter as much , however now with Trip advisor word gets round very quickly .
Same can be said for restaurants / bars in seaside locations . some are fantastic, others rely on the turnover of holiday makers to make enough cash through the summer to get them through winter .

singletrackmind
Sierra cycling actually allow clients to arrive and depart on any day and stay as long as they want. This has been great for us in the past but i would imagine its a nightmare for them

Op all the way 😐

wise words from DS...goes for lie down

Molini Freeride in Italy are fully registered in Italy, and also P.IVA regd (basically the equivalent of VAT). Our bunkhouse is also registered with the local authorities and also the Province. Despite what people assume is a shambolic bureaucracy in Italy, the regulations are enforced - sooner or later! Not only that, many companies that try to operate "under the radar" have been hit by retrospective taxation and fines.

[i]Molini Freeride in Italy[/i]

I believe your fire regulations are particularly stringent? 😉

Ive known Alan and the previous guides Johnny and Dave for a while now and I even showed them so routes further afield, Ive talked with lots of groups who were here on holiday and everyone I spoke to enjoyed there time here in Spain . I am sorry to say you might of been unlucky and a bit unfortunate , I hope you enjoyed the riding we have here as some of it is fantastic ask my mates from Blazing Saddles in Hebden Bridge who have been here 5 years running and have had some great rides on the best natural riding trails theyve ever ridden.

Crikey - Fire regulations! I did a test for the Vigle del Fuoco and passed with merit. On the other hand if you collect mushrooms without a licence, you get your bike confiscated and paraded round the village with a big sign round your neck and ducked in the laghetto using the old stool from Triora.

spanishbarry - I don't think anyone doubts the quality of the riding in the area the issue seems to have been

a) Issues that arose during this particular holiday.

and

b) The rather offhand response that the owner of the business has subsequently given.

My 2p is that you can tell how good a business is when things go wrong (any idiot can deal with eveything going well) - in this case SC have fallen well short of what I would have expected.

Well at least knowone complained about the weather !

Just a couple of points to realise
1 . Finding any guide out here at short term notice is near on impossible and especially one who can speak English and knows the trails.
2. The van hire scenario - Spain is so differant to the UK , if you needed to hire a van at the weekend forget it you might be lucky to find a place open until midday on a Saturday if your very lucky , if you needed to get a hire van in siesta time (2-5) forget it , I dont think Ive ever seen a minibus for hire either , you dont even get 6 seater white cabs here as the local town halls wont issue them a liscense much easier to take two cabs and double the fair.
Your in the height of the season with loads of golfers who have probibly prebooked all the vehicles months ago.

So, in that case, the SC apologises to the customers, explains why they can't sort out a van and maybe offers something in recompense.

2. The van hire scenario - Spain is so differant to the UK , if you needed to hire a van at the weekend forget it you might be lucky to find a place open until midday on a Saturday if your very lucky , if you needed to get a hire van in siesta time (2-5) forget it , I dont think Ive ever seen a minibus for hire either , you dont even get 6 seater white cabs here as the local town halls wont issue them a liscense much easier to take two cabs and double the fair.

just to clarify a couple of points that are being discussed which possibly aren't clear from our respective posts;

1) Alan drove us TO the trail overloaded. His reply suggested he drove us home overloaded at our insistence (hence the comment he made about not letting the other group go first), but we were driven out [i]to the ride[/i] in the morning 9 clients and a driver in a 9 (8 + driver) seater van.

2) the van broke midweek and was always going to be a long term repair as it needed a new alternator which apparently costs 500 euros.

the van broke midweek and was always going to be a long term repair as it needed a new alternator which apparently costs 500 euros.

Long term problem? That, I'm afraid, is cobblers.

I don't doubt that the alternator costs €500, but it's never been longer than a 1 hour job for me to swap out an alternator. This is a commercial vehicle remember, they're designed to have stuff accessible and easily fixable.

So the choice for SC would be:

(1) hire a van for a few days, order the alternator by courier, fix it yourself in the evening - not hard. No-one really notices the issue.

(2) Get the van to the garage asap, get an express order in, get the van back on the road in 24h. Don't hire another van, swap the rest day around so no riding is lost, apologise to guests about the problem, and treat them all to drinks at the local bar for an evening. They'd almost certainly be understanding, and they'd certainly think well of you for sorting out the issue.

Never mind the details, they did seem unprofessional, unprepared and failed to treat paying customers properly. Then to make matters worse, they provided a really bad response online.

No excuse for any of their actions really.

When I was a dive guide we had to cope with boats braking down in the Red Sea, compressors giving up halfway through a fill. All whilst at sea days from land.

One boat even started to sink.

We still had back-up plans and ensured the guests were treated like royalty.

I don't doubt that the alternator costs €500, but it's never been longer than a 1 hour job for me to swap out an alternator. This is a commercial vehicle remember, they're designed to have stuff accessible and easily fixable.

When I was a dive guide

You were a dive guide? - you should have mentioned it earlier 😉

Wouldn't have the first clue about how long an alternator takes but that was what Alan, at Sierra Cycling said/we were told. Plus the van broke down around lunch time we were riding until at least 1600 so somewhere would've been open after that I imagine.

You were a dive guide? - you should have mentioned it earlier

😆

Best bike holidays are ones you plan youre self. No guides. Just need a map and a bit of local knowledge that you can find on the net

😆

One boat even started to sink.

We still had back-up plans

sorted.
[img] [/img]

don't forget the:
[img] [/img]

LOL @ DavidRussell

Are you lot still moaning on?

Nope....we are laughing at DavidRussell thanks.

I think he needs a bigger boat

[img] [/img]

"One boat even started to sink. We still had back-up plans and ensured the guests were treated like royalty."

Am I the only one with an image of the guests having dinner in black tie whilst the water is creeping up their legs as the boat goes down?

Think of a cross between Titanic and Carry on up the Khyber dinner scene. Trimix would be Sir Sydney Rruff Diamond!
😉

Great thread this. Still no word on the use of illegal trails or the guide putting his feet up in a cafe for half the morning?

300

hth x

Good work phil

Trimix earlier 😀

[IMG] [/IMG]

Ok I'll mention the illegal trails. I've ridden mainly in NE Spain and in several Natural Parks such as Els Ports, Sierra D'Irta, Montseny et al, is there a blanket ban on mountainbiking in these Parks or are there specific prohibitions. I've not seen signs banning bikes but if there was a blanket ban, I guess they wouldn't be necessary, bit like footpath signs not explicitly barring bikes in England and Wales. It must be confusing for foreigners riding here, (not that I've ever met any)

Something about being allowed on the fireroads but not on the paths?

Trimix - Member

One boat even started to sink.

We still had back-up plans

Did these plans involve issuing the guests with diving equipment and wishing them good luck? 🙂

A back-up plan sounds better than a straight-down plan when talking of boats.

I'm glad Mr MC posted about their experiences with Sierra Cycling - if it had been someone who had just made an account to have a dig I'd be skeptical, but they're forum regulars who seem like fairly sane and rational people*. The owner's response doesn't really do his company any favours in my opinion. :/

* By STW standards 😛

re: cycling in natural parks in spain.
Living in bcn I should abide by this.
http://www.uncomo.com/articulo/normativa-ciclista-del-parque-de-collserola-barcelona-961.html
basically says you can't cycle on anything narrower than 3m.

and you can't do more than 20kmh

dunno if its the same everywhere in spain.
never taken any notice of that myself.

postierich - Member

There is a free bar

No there isn't, there's a kitty which every guest pays into, as part of the overall cost. TANSTAAFL, but some people get very excited just to get what they've paid for, as long as they don't have to pay for it at point of delivery 😉

it used to be free - maybe not now

I think I went in 2007

I wonder how many rivals are putting the boot in on this thread

The bar was certainly free back in 2003 at S.C. - when i say bar, i mean we were invited to help ourselves to the beers in the large fridge in the kitchen. TBH i don't recall actually having many!

I do think it's a shame how Alan has responded to the OP's comments about their holiday, it doesn't really show him or his Company in the best light.
I have been with them and had a good time with them but it was a long time ago now so i can't comment on if/how things have changed in the meantime. I will say that we were met at Malaga Airport by Alan holding up a sign though. I do hope S.C. can take this onboard and react in a positive manner, it would be a shame otherwise.

Oh the joys of doing business in the 21st century. I can't help but have a little sympathy for SC. I hope they learn from this experience and can bounce back.

TBH don't recall actually having many

the 3 of us managed a case per night - after we got back from the bars 🙂

I know only to well that people are very vocal on the WWW when unhappy, is's the way things are now, customers are more interested in doing a business harm than they are in getting an apology & maybe a discount voucher for further use in a company they plan never to use again.

A business with a lot of throughput will never keep 100% of the customers happy, to an extent you have to except that & minimalise the damage it will ultimately cost you.

To be fair I dont really think there is room in this thread for SC to answer, how could they possibly win?

That said I still can't get around this quote from the OP's first post

Unpacking the bikes in what is effectively the rear yard of the house we stayed in, a woman walked in the front, through the house passing most of our group, to the rear. Stood watching me, unloaded a washing machine, then turned and walked out, not saying a word to any of us. Turns out this is Mary, Alan's partner and our host.

That sounds as if at least half the partnership has had enough after 20 years, fair enough in itself, but not something that should ever happen.

Best of luck to the OP & to SC, there really will be no winners in this thread.

Cheers.

To be fair I dont really think there is room in this thread for SC to answer

You haven't been paying attention then. They did answer, and if they had answered well this thread would have died four pages ago. The problem is that they answered in a way that suggested that a lot of the problem was the OP's fault and that other things were outside their control. They also had a bit of a dig at the OP. The point of the rest of the thread is that after 20 years you should be able to cope with the unexpected a bit better and have your routine down so that all guests feel welcome and are treated well - however the owner and the staff may be feeling. As someone else said - shit happens and it is how you deal with it that makes the difference

leffeboy - Member

To be fair I dont really think there is room in this thread for SC to answer

You haven't been paying attention then. They did answer, and if they had answered well this thread would have died four pages ago. The problem is that they answered in a way that suggested that a lot of the problem was the OP's fault and that other things were outside their control. They also had a bit of a dig at the OP. The point of the rest of the thread is that after 20 years you should be able to cope with the unexpected a bit better and have your routine down so that all guests feel welcome and are treated well - however the owner and the staff may be feeling. As someone else said - shit happens and it is how you deal with it that makes the difference

leffeboy - Member

You haven't been paying attention then.

I had seen the reply, and to be fair I should of said 'reply again' rather than 'reply', but anyway the bloke replied & got a mainly negative reaction, I'm not sure how anyone could recover from 8 pages of negativity, best let the thread die aye? 😉

I had seen the reply, and to be fair I should of said 'reply again' rather than 'reply', but anyway the bloke replied & got a mainly negative reaction, [b]I'm not sure how anyone could recover from 8 pages of negativity[/b], best let the thread die aye?