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I really doubt Starmer or anyone else in Labour is very worried about this. They might even welcome it as a few of the perpetual malcontents might jump ship and stop undermining the government from the inside.
As for the alleged membership numbers, no different any other Internet poll, click bait froth and ultimately meaningless.
I really doubt Starmer or anyone else in Labour is very worried about this.
I suspect you are very right. Starmer seems hugely unbothered by the crisis facing Labour. I am sure he believes that if he makes the odd racist speech and reactionary comment everything will be alright on the night. Besides, he's got a lucrative post-prime ministerial career to look forward to.
The latest opinion poll puts Labour on 20%. When Labour were polling those sorts of numbers under Corbyn a sense of panic gripped the party as it signaled inevitable election defeat. But now......crisis? what crisis??
And what did that achieve exactly?
Well now the grown ups have “won”. The achievements are non-stop. Remind me what they are again? If Labour are just the same as the Tories (and they are, to all intents and purposes) then surely it’s only positive to have someone make a case for something different? The ideas may not penetrate straight away (people will have their own little obsessions) but it’s better to have them on the table than not.
And what did that achieve exactly?
Well now the grown ups have “won”. The achievements are non-stop. Remind me what they are again? If Labour are just the same as the Tories (and they are, to all intents and purposes) then surely it’s only positive to have someone make a case for something different? The ideas may not penetrate straight away (people will have their own little obsessions) but it’s better to have them on the table than not.
No one is stopping the insufferable old fool forming his own political party - indeed it seems he's doing just that.
I'll read what he has to say, and I'll vote accordingly.
An anti EU, self-proclaimed pacifist - what could possibly go wrong him in charge? In the current geo-political climate? 😴
Given the state of the political climate everywhere at the moment, Christ only knows what it’ll look like in 4 years time.
Things will carry on just as they always do. Labour will have lost the remaining support they have and Reform or Tories or both will be in power. I would even bet money on it but you appear to go quiet at that point.
him in charge
Having a meaningful discussion really does depend on a basic grasp of the facts. The whole point is that he would NOT be in charge.
surely it’s only positive to have someone make a case for something different? The ideas may not penetrate straight away (people will have their own little obsessions) but it’s better to have them on the table than not.
This is basically the "we won the arguments/shifted the Overton window" line. We had two general elections where Corbyn was making a case for Corbynite politics. The policies were on the table.
How did that all shake out? Did it shift political discourse in GB to the left? Have distinctly Corbynite ideas permeated into the mainstream and become conventional wisdom since then?
him in charge
Having a meaningful discussion really does depend on a basic grasp of the facts. The whole point is that he would NOT be in charge.
Presumably they will have a party leader who takes on the role of PM in the event they win an election? That's what I mean by 'in charge', for the hard of thinking. 😉
Or will they delegate any and all decisions to committee or referendum, thus avoiding any and all accountability - it's the will of the people! 😆
Seems like this could be a fairly positive move, assuming we get a chance to put proportional representation into the government elections at some point.
We have PR in government elections in London (8.9 million people), Scotland (5.5 million people) and Wales (3.2 million people). So just over a quarter of the GB population will get the chance to vote for Your Party under a PR system at the next election. Those elections in Scotland and Wales determine who controls education, healthcare, housing policy - things critical to social life in this country. The GLA's powers are a bit more limited but it's still affecting policing, transport, environment, planning and education - all things I assume Your Party members would care about.
If Your Party's support base turns out to be highly geographically concentrated, then it's conceivable it might do better under FPTP than PR. But we'll have to see what the policies are and who is attracted to them first.
No one is stopping the insufferable old fool forming his own political party - indeed it seems he's doing just that.
You really have no grasp of the dynamics at play with regards to the situation on the Left of UK politics, and to be fair unless you are actively involved yourself there isn't a lot of reason why you should have. And by Left I mean what you would probably term as hard-left.
It is widely perceived that Jeremy Corbyn was dragged kicking and screaming to the position which he has now finally, at long last, taken. It has been 5 years since he had the Labour whip removed and a year since he won an election as an independent.
And yet during that time whilst others across the country were actively involved in organising a political alternative to Starmer's right-wing project, including a multitude of Labour councillors who have resigned from the party and independent parliamentary candidates, Corbyn has, as usual, prevaricated.
He wasted 4 years on a failed mission to save his position within the Labour Party refusing to accept the reality of the situation, he waited until the last moment before the general election to decide that he would be standing as an independent.
Corbyn has suffered from the same delusionary belief that many on the Left within the Labour Party suffer from, ie that the Labour Party is somehow salvageable and that it can be returned once again to its founding principles.
It isn't, it is a lost cause and that has been obvious since the days of New Labour. Sure there was a blip when he was elected leader of the party (twice) with thumping majorities, and even I got sucked into temporarily believing that there might some hope.
But in the end Corbyn was weak and indecisive and defeated by the inevitable right-wing backlash. That opportunity will never ever arise again, the right-wing solidly behind Starmer will make certain that they never again make the same mistake of momentarily losing control of the party.
Corbyn is heading this party (at least temporarily) because all other options have been closed to him and he has been put under intense pressure to do so, Zahra Sultana publicly shinning a spotlight on him and him responding with "no no no, I haven't decided yet" was embarrassing but not surprising. Nevertheless if he wanted to remain politically active he had to get up off his arse.
Having said all that I am very pleased that he is fronting the new party being created. He might lack leadership skills but his political commitment, (something in very short supply in UK politics these days) is genuine.
He is instantly recognisable (who would be interested in a new party whose leader is unknown?) and is particularly popular with young voters. Plus just because he represents a very different type of politics it creates enthusiasm and energizes a lot of people, especially if you are into woke bollocks in a big way.
However I hope that he is just a frontman and that the new party is primarily steered through a collective leadership (which I think is his preferred structure anyway) I wouldn't want to trust him with making too many decisions.
I also hope that the new party is more a loose federation of fairly self-governing local organizations of which many already exist in various parts of the country, rather than the more typical party structure, I believe that is also Corbyn's preferred choice.
No one is stopping the insufferable old fool forming his own political party - indeed it seems he's doing just that.
You really have no grasp of the dynamics at play with regards to the situation on the Left of UK politics, and to be fair unless you are actively involved yourself there isn't a lot of reason why you should have. And by Left I mean what you would probably term as hard-left.
It is widely perceived that Jeremy Corbyn was dragged kicking and screaming to the position which he has now finally, at long last, taken. It has been 5 years since he had the Labour whip removed and a year since he won an election as an independent.
And yet during that time whilst others across the country were actively involved in organising a political alternative to Starmer's right-wing project, including a multitude of Labour councillors who have resigned from the party and independent parliamentary candidates, Corbyn has, as usual, prevaricated.
He wasted 4 years on a failed mission to save his position within the Labour Party refusing to accept the reality of the situation, he waited until the last moment before the general election to decide that he would be standing as an independent.
Corbyn has suffered from the same delusionary belief that many on the Left within the Labour Party suffer from, ie that the Labour Party is somehow salvageable and that it can be returned once again to its founding principles.
It isn't, it is a lost cause and that has been obvious since the days of New Labour. Sure there was a blip when he was elected leader of the party (twice) with thumping majorities, and even I got sucked into temporarily believing that there might some hope.
But in the end Corbyn was weak and indecisive and defeated by the inevitable right-wing backlash. That opportunity will never ever arise again, the right-wing solidly behind Starmer will make certain that they never again make the same mistake of momentarily losing control of the party.
Corbyn is heading this party (at least temporarily) because all other options have been closed to him and he has been put under intense pressure to do so, Zahra Sultana publicly shinning a spotlight on him and him responding with "no no no, I haven't decided yet" was embarrassing but not surprising. Nevertheless if he wanted to remain politically active he had to get up off his arse.
Having said all that I am very pleased that he is fronting the new party being created. He might lack leadership skills but his political commitment, (something in very short supply in UK politics these days) is genuine.
He is instantly recognisable (who would be interested in a new party whose leader is unknown?) and is particularly popular with young voters. Plus just because he represents a very different type of politics it creates enthusiasm and energizes a lot of people, especially if you are into woke bollocks in a big way.
However I hope that he is just a frontman and that the new party is primarily steered through a collective leadership (which I think is his preferred structure anyway) I wouldn't want to trust him with making too many decisions.
I also hope that the new party is more a loose federation of fairly self-governing local organizations of which many already exist in various parts of the country, rather than the more typical party structure, I believe that is also Corbyn's preferred choice.
So hes heading it, but not in charge, ok, whatever.
Sounds about right, lol.
I'll read the spiel, if and when it's available, but I'm not expecting anything that will compel me to to vote for them, him, it, whatever the the preferred semantics are.
I also hope that the new party is more a loose federation of fairly self-governing local organizations of which many already exist in various parts of the country, rather than the more typical party structure, I believe that is also Corbyn's preferred choice
A sort of anarcho-syndicist commune?
I don’t consider myself a “Centrist”, but I’m pretty sure I’d fail the purity tests
Bless. I do love how reliably people repeat the hard right attack lines against the left whilst sneering at those easily led right wingers.
Aside from anything else I would have thought given Starmers purging of anyone who dares disagree with him that, just possibly, accusations of purity tests might be better aimed at him.
However since people trained to repeat it havent been told to be upset at him they will continue to attack those nasty lefties.
A sort of anarcho-syndicist commune?
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the original structure of the Labour Party......a federation of self-governing organisations such as socialist societies, trade unions, etc.
But with perhaps more emphasis on regional and local areas. Apart from anything else it would make a red-green bloc much more feasible.
I reckon that a red-green electoral alliance could probably realistically aim for 20% of the vote. Which is potentially more than the Labour Party is likely to get in the next general election.
Not working together would be a disaster for both parties as they would simply eat into each others support.
With the Greens and the Left independents already in Westminster we have 10 MPs, which is more than Reform currently have and only one less than the LibDems had in the last parliament.
I would have thought given Starmers purging of anyone who dares disagree with him that, just possibly, accusations of purity tests might be better aimed at him.
LOL! What a little beauty ! 🤣
How did that all shake out? Did it shift political discourse in GB to the left?
Yes. Starmer was elected leader on a Corbynite manifesto. Unfortunately, many of us were unaware of the extent he was prepared to lie. I wonder why his former supporters are looking elsewhere?
How did that all shake out? Did it shift political discourse in GB to the left?
Yes. Starmer was elected leader on a Corbynite manifesto. Unfortunately, many of us were unaware of the extent he was prepared to lie. I wonder why his former supporters are looking elsewhere?
Sorry - so just to be clear - your argument for the enduring political impact on GB politics of Corbyn arguing the case for Corbynism is that (notorious Labour rightist) Kier Starmer ran on a Corbynite platform in the 2020 leadership campaign (to replace Corbyn, in competition with actual Corbynite Rebecca Long Bailey), and he then abandoned that platform (before winning a general election)?
Have you quite thought that one through?
www.clpd.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Keir-Starmers-10-Pledges.pdf
The problem is that people have short memories, or at least rather selective memories. Plus furthermore on the issue of whether Corbyn shook up British politics it is obviously far too early to reach a conclusion, hence the existence of this very thread.
The first example of Corbyn having a significant effect on UK politics is how he changed attitudes with regards to austerity.
15 years ago austerity was sold quite openly to British voters as a very necessary and legitimate economic strategy. All three main parties supported austerity policies to reduce the deficit caused by dealing with the consequences of years of deregulation.
The only actual differences between the three parties was that the Tories and the LibDems claimed that the deficit should be cleared during the duration of one parliament whilst Labour took a more cautious approach insisting that it should be over the duration of two parliaments.
With even the Labour Party supporting austerity the idea was successfully sold to voters who quite understandably concluded that if it was such a good idea to clear the deficit that it should probably be done as soon as possible, hence voter backing for the Tories and LibDems..
This nonpartisan attitude towards the need for austerity continued right through to the next general election and right up until Jeremy Corbyn became Labour leader.
Upon Corbyn becoming leader Labour's position on austerity changed drastically resulting in growing public support for an alternative economic strategy. So much so that the then Tory Prime Minister had to officially declare austerity "over", whether that was actually true is irrelevant, it is what British voters wanted to hear.
Today austerity is a very dirty word in UK politics, quite different to the situation 15 or 10 years ago, no politician would now dare to use the term. Corbyn was hugely instrumental in that situation.
"May’s significant move on austerity is a tacit acceptance that Labour has won the argument"
That is an example of one way that Corbyn deliberately shook up UK politics but there are also potentially other non-deliberate consequences of his time as Labour leader.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Labour Party is now a more authoritarian right-wing party than it would have been had Corbyn not been leader.
The right-wing got the shock of their lives when they lost control to the left. As a consequence of that they have massively consolidated their power and grip on the party expelling leftists and moving the party much further to the right confident that there is no longer any effective opposition to them within the party.
That in turn has alienated voters, especially Labour voters, and Labour has become deeply unpopular. And the consequence of that it has opened up the opportunity for a new party on the left with potentially long-term consequences for UK politics.
None of this would be happening if Corbyn hadn't ****ed up when he was Labour leader. So I for one might end up being particularly grateful to him if only because of his ineptitude. He might have accidentally buried the Labour Party the party which he loved so much, or at least robbed them of the opportunity to ever form a majority government again. Hopefully.
At one point I was certain Ernie was in this video.
They'll nail his hat right on just like last time. He'll be wearing the communist millstone around his neck before you know it! The working classes they are supposed to be saving will stick two fingers up to the idea of being state allocated farm labourers, driving cardboard cars, ditch the beamer for a horse and cart, get on your bike it's good for the environment, holibobs to blackers int chara, state telly telling you how wonderful it all is. Then they will interview some poor sap benefit claimants, every week, in the run up to the election. Getting them to declare their voting intentions for YourParty on the basis of fairness and Fannys your uncle Bobs your aunt it's the party for scroungers and shirkers.
They should avoid the c-word and anyone associated with it like the plague!
the idea of being state allocated farm labourers, driving cardboard cars, ditch the beamer for a horse and cart, get on your bike it's good for the environment, state telly telling you how wonderful it all is.
LOL!. Proper Daily Mail stuff........farm laborers, horse and cart, state telly, and bikes**
All your own work or are you paraphrasing Richard Littlejohn ?
**I am disappointed at the lack of reference to tractors though. I guess there are only so many anti-socialist cliches that you can include in just one rant?
It's not my fault I don't write the articles or produce the TV news.
I reckon that a red-green electoral alliance
It begs the question why Sultana and Corbyn haven't just joined the Greens, Polanski has more or less admitted that they've given up on 'green Tories' so the potential constituencies are more or less the same people making an alliance a waste of everyone's time (and vote).
...because they're not Greens. They know the Green Party exists. If they agreed with the Green Party platform, they'd have joined already. They don't. Corbyn, at least, isn't just gonna join any old organisation that only vaguely intersects with his views. He's only just left one of them...
Corbyn, at least, isn't just gonna join any old organisation that only vaguely intersects with his views. He's only just left one of them...
The problem is not many peoples views intersect with Corbyns... I mean, fair play for him for maintaining his integrity, but he's gonna get nowhere whilst he is anti EU - Reform already have that well and truly covered, and most people who are anti-EU are also massive racists, so that's a battle he'll never win 🤣
I mean if that's the hill he chooses to die on, (again) that's up to him I guess.
He's a strange curiosity and nothing more, IMO.
Not sure how I feel about all the lefties on here now calling themselves centrists.
Hand wringing centrist bed wetters doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
😉
right wing ****s rolls right off the tongue, fortunately.
(-;
Sorry - so just to be clear - your argument for the enduring political impact on GB politics of Corbyn arguing the case for Corbynism is that (notorious Labour rightist) Kier Starmer ran on a Corbynite platform in the 2020 leadership campaign (to replace Corbyn, in competition with actual Corbynite Rebecca Long Bailey), and he then abandoned that platform (before winning a general election)?
Have you quite thought that one through?
Yes.
I would be very surprised if the greens join this group in any form or create an alliance with them.
im not too up on the details of this, who are this party looking to get? or why would a left leaning person choose YourParty* over the greens? is it just the EU thing?
im not too up on the details of this, who are this party looking to get? or why would a left leaning person choose YourParty* over the greens? is it just the EU thing?
There's a definite contradiction between younger voters favouring Corbyn and also favouring rejoining the EU. Somewhat of a tangent to what you asked but I'm curious as to how that will play out
I would be very surprised if the greens join this group in any form or create an alliance with them.
Does that mean you will be very surprised if Polanski wins the leadership contest? He has already publicly committed to working with them.
Ultimately it will up to the Green Party membership to make a decision on any alliance but I reckon that if thy cannot cannot see how a red-green alliance provides them with their greatest ever opportunity then there is something quite wrong within the party.
Yes the still unnamed party has the potential in the immediate term to eat into the Green vote but it also has the potential, in an alliance, to give Green Party members real political power.
Furthermore as any red-green bloc gains credibility in the eyes of voters it will increase the number of voters prepared to cast their vote for them, hence potentially increasing the Green vote long-term.
That is self-evident and we have seen exactly that same snowball effect occur with support for Reform as voters realise that Reform candidates are no longer the no-hopers electorally they previously were.
The Green Party's single greatest handicap currently is that voting for them is seen by voters as a futile gesture if in a few months times opinion polls are showing a red-green alliance on about 20%, which in current climate is actually feasible and potentially more than the Tories or even Labour, then things will change dramatically.
Btw if anyone wants to have a vote in the Green Party leadership election the cut-off date for joining the party is the 31st of July.
There's a definite contradiction between younger voters favouring Corbyn and also favouring rejoining the EU.
There really isn't. Despite the endless rantings of some of fanatical anti-Corbyn punters on here Corbyn is not associated with anti-EU views which he might possibly have (I honestly don't know what position he holds these days and I frankly wouldn't trust him to maintain his previous opposition to the EU)
When Coryn was Labour Party leader the Labour Party had a strong Remain position which reflected the views of the majority of party members, this new party will be considerably more democratic than the Labour Party. Corbyn's views on the EU, whatever they might be, will be irrelevant.
The reason EU membership is used by his detractors as a stick to beat Corbyn with is because back in the early 1980s when the Labour Party was significantly more left-wing it was in the Labour Party election manifesto to leave the EEC, a position which at that time was mostly supported by the membership.
Indeed Labour's opposition to the EEC was one of the principal reasons for the formation of the Social Democratic Party. Although ironically the leading light in the Gang of Four behind the breakaway, Dr Owen, eventually went on to strongly support Leave in the EU referendum.
There really isn't.
Yes there is.
Honestly Ernesto, the alternative universe you lexiteers inhabit, now including hand-washing denial, really is bonkers
Corbyn voted against every single piece of pro-EU legislation during his parliamentary career, went AWOL during the referendum campaign, then enabled Brexit at every turn from the second the leave vote came in
Just note the date on this one…
https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/?amp
When it comes to rabidly anti-EU sentiment, he really is no different to Farage
I would be very surprised if the greens join this group in any form or create an alliance with them.
There's also the awkward point that Polanski (if he wins) would only be the leader of the Greens in England and Wales. A deal with the Scottish and Northern Irish parties would need negotiating separately. I don't know NI well enough but Scotland has a handful of "non-comformist" seats that in normal times a red-green alliance might hope to pick up.
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
We cannot duck the issue of immigration, instead we need to start an honest and rational debate...It’s clear from the conversations I and many others had on streets around the country in recent weeks that immigration is a crucial issue for a lot of people... Opinion polls have told us for many years that immigration is one of the biggest issues for people. In fact it has not dropped out of the top five issues for voters since 2011.
Politicians are often accused of being afraid about talking about immigration. I am certainly not. I believe migration has enriched our country, our culture and our communities. But I also understand that rapid changes to communities can bring tensions and strains on services.
Honestly Ernesto
Hey binners, I thought you had lost all interest in UK politics? You never ever post anything on the UK government thread anymore and yet here you are back to your usual self on this thread !
No wait, now I remember........ you claimed that the Lefties had spoilt that thread and you couldn't be bothered to argue with them any more. And yet here you are arguing with Lefties again ! 🤣
I guess that the current halfwit leader of the Labour Party has become such an embarrassment to you, with his Enoch Powell tribute speeches and shift to the hard-right as he tries to ape Nigel Farage......the Labour Party has become the cult of the personality without an actual personality, that you won't even begin to engage on the UK government thread.
Much better to focus all that pent-up ranting energy on Jeremy Corbyn than expressing any opinion on Sir Keir Starmer.
Binners.......the man with SO many opinions on SO many politicians except the Leader of the Labour Party and the current UK Prime Minister 😂😂😂
When it comes to rabidly anti-EU sentiment, he really is no different to Farage
This is a complete rewriting of history. He campaigned for remain. he spoke in favour of remain at large numbers of rallies
If the labour right had not been briefing against him and made a pact with the tories in Scotland Mays government would have fallen and we would never have had brexit
Politecameraaction
What is the upside for a red / green alliance in Scotland for the greens? the greens are looking likely to be third largest party in the next holyrood election ( its tight for places 3-5 tho) Holyrood is elected more or less under PR.
I don't even see an upside to this in England mind you.
This is a complete rewriting of history.
It really isn’t
He campaigned for remain. he spoke in favour of remain at large numbers of rallies
Where were those? In the shed on his allotment?
If the labour right had not been briefing against him and made a pact with the tories in Scotland Mays government would have fallen and we would never have had brexit
And you’re accusing me of rewriting history? 😂
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
The strain on the NHS comes because post brexit we have lost many the EU staff that used to work here. Immigrants use less public services and pay more tax than uk citizens. In other areas its because of deliberate government policy nothing to do with immigration. ~We need immigrants as a workforce
Interesting though your comments always are Ernesto, on what threads I should and shouldn’t comment on, do you have anything to add to your frankly ridiculous assertion that Corbyn wasn’t anti-EU?
Campaign rallies during the election campaign.
I think Corbyn was a lousy politician but this is a total rewrite of history.