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As TJ pointed out there are already left wing parties out there it just the right wing do simplistic populism so much better, Corbyn, much as I don't like him, does have principles which is not something Farage is encumbered with. Other than comrade Ernie and a few other zealots there really isn't much appetite for left wing politics in the UK.
Well I for one like Jezza and his style of politics, the only time I voted labour was when he was leader, I wish him and his new party all the best.
Agree. There needs to be a party that can at least represent what some of us want and based on the statement yesterday this is it for me. It they get enough interest in the polling it may sway Labour in same way as Reform do but it won't be the cause of Labour losing as they have already lost as most people think they are ****ing awful.
he won't get any where near the traction
Well, not enough to get the left into power. But then, you don't need to get into power to effect change.
Well, the good news is that Corbyn has 40+ years of experience of not getting into power. The bad news is that he also has 40+ years of experience of not effecting change. He did "win the argument", though.
I wish them luck, but they'll be going People's Front of Judea before Xmas. They could have joined the Greens, the Socialist Workers or any other rump left party. We do need PR in this country, but it'll never happen under Labour, they're too institutionalised, though it could happen under the Tories because they'll do anything to survive. I tend to side with Corbyn's policies, but he's a useless leader and their one note independent colleagues will soon get them into trouble. Something's got to be done about Starmer and the centre right's takeover of the Labour Party but this isn't it.
He did "win the argument", though.
Oh god, If actually managed to wipe that memory until you reminded me of it. Very obviously didn't "win the argument". Lost quite badly in practical reality.
left wing breakaways - there have been some - all failures. Galloways mob?
I wish them luck, but they'll be going People's Front of Judea before Xmas
Grandad was reported to be ‘absolutely furious’ with her premature announcement of the new party, then they started arguing over who was going to be leader, so the factional infighting started literally from ‘year zero’
At least they started as they mean to go on. Maybe he wanted to wait until the sixth formers were back in their common rooms? 🤷♂️
Blair took over a country that had bean already taken rather right of centre by Thatcherism, he them performed an accounting trick by allowing a corporate takeover of government services, which has cost the country far more in the long term than the more traditional government debt and spending, this aided the transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich instead of balancing the economy. When the Tories took aver again they further accelerated that transfer off wealth, and supressed the wealth and earnings of the majority with austerity.
So Starmer has taken over a country that is already far to the right of the country Blair took control of and is suffering quite extreme financial inequality, it could almost now be described as economic segregation, and has not only done sweet FA to change tack but has wholeheartedly adopted austerity and racism, and gone further in attacking some of the most vulnerable members of society than even a tory government would have dared.
This is it.
I would argue that thanks to the media campaigns for and against him, Corbyn is the figurehead of leftwing UK politics as strongly as Farage is the right. That draws people together and is the big difference compared to all the tiny parties like TUSC and even the greens. Tell me any other UK political leaders name that has been chanted at gigs etc (in a positive way) in recent history? Certainly not kier ****ing starmer...
Reform are racing away in the polls so we can hardly conclude that normal rules apply, this next election more than any other has the opportunity for alternative votes given how many people now feel let down by labour as much as they did the Tories. Sure they're being "sensible" (debatable) but that's not what the country needed after 14 years of being ground under the boot of austerity.
It's plain naive to think that there aren't a shitload of disenfranchised people looking for a home that is not reform. The numbers Corbyn got in 2017 and even 2019 are inarguable.
I think probably the ideal situation is that this party reminds the Labour party leadership where their roots are, drags them back leftwards to protect their core voter base and then only stands in tactical seats to limit the damage they do in splitting the vote.
All the centrists claim to be balanced, to reject extreme politics, and yet we are living in extreme economic inequality, the haves have pulled up the ladders and created an ever expanding underclass which is sucking in the younger generations, there is a cost of living crisis across the west (no matter what the voting system is in each individual nation), protest is being criminalised and/or labelled as terrorism, the disabled are being punished while the wealthy horde masses (not to do anything with but just to keep count and taunt their workers).
Starmer is a proven liar, FFS he lies nearly everyday, he lied to gain the trust of remainers then abandoned that position, he lied to gain the leadership of the labour party and abandoned his pledges, he lied about green investment, he lied about the report he commissioned and abused it to drive political opponents from the party while strengthening the very hierarchy of racism that the report had exposed, he promotes racism to excuse his lies and failures, he punishes the weakest most vulnerable in society to protect the wealth horders, he lies about genocide and the slaughter of a nation.
And when an alternative is offered, the wannabe grown ups who claim to reject extremism line up to protect extremism, to defend the lies, defend the status quo and attack change, to defend the suffering and blame the victims. It is as pathetic as it is sad and depressing.
this next election more than any other has the opportunity for alternative votes
This is very true. I think TJ’s fear about what that will actually mean for the UK is spot on though. A new party taking double figures percentage of votes might get a single figure seat count, but also help right wing parties to take far more seats where the vote is split in seats it doesn’t win. This new party, if it is “successful” will damage Labour and the Green Party more than anything else. Plenty of others can make a strong case for that being a benefit for the UK in itself… but I really don’t see it myself. It will be just another thing in Farage’s favour, as far as I can see.
Corbyn, the left's answer to Farage, except he won't get any where near the traction. At the moment there is far too much hate and inequality in this country for proper left wing policies to flourish, Corbyn of all people isn't going to change that.
The problem with centrists like yourself stumpy is that you have a complete fixation on Corbyn, this really isn't about Corbyn at all, it isn't even vaguely about Corbyn.
Although I know that this might be hard for you to accept because the anti-left has always focused on Corbyn the person as they have attempted to vilify him rather than challenging his actually rather popular policies.
I have no doubt that you genuinely believe it is all about Corbyn but in the left-wing political world which I inhabit Corbyn barely ever gets mentioned if at all. I am far more likely to hear his name mentioned on here than in any of the political activities which I engage in.
What this is actually all about is offering a real alternative to what was once described as Tory-lite, it's become even more than that now. In my manor there has been huge pressure over the last two years to organise and stand independent candidates against the Labour Party, especially as Steve Reed is one Croydon's Labour MPs.
And this has been a very broad coalition of the Left btw. We got very close to actually organising candidates at the last general election but in the end Rishi Sunak called the election rather quickly and there was neither the time nor the impetus to go ahead. Today after 12 months of a centrist government and the general election still 4 years away things are very different indeed.
Croydon isn't unique, that situation was/is replicated to various degrees throughout country. Some areas got their act together and as a consequence there are now 5 independent left-wing MPs in Parliament. For them the mass murder of Palestinians by the IDF and Labour's refusal to back a call for a ceasefire whilst in opposition was the catalyst behind their election victories.
Today, 12 months later, the situation has advanced by a country mile and we now have a nasty right-wing authoritarian government which isn't offering any hope to the British people and is utterly morally bankrupt. From its pandering to racists with speeches condemning immigrants for causing "incalculable damage", to deliberately supporting policies which are and will increase poverty, to steadfast support for a genocidal regime which is currently committing televised war crimes.
This new party which is the inevitable consequence of the mainstream parties lurching massively to the right, especially the Labour Party, and the staggering rise of the far-right, won't of course win any general elections but they will possibly win a significant number of seats, and there also exists the possibility that no party will ever again win a majority in a UK general election. Having just a dozen MPs could prove to be something quite influential.
But yeah, keep believing that this is all about Jeremy Corbyn. I don't expect you to understand the problem after all Starmer's government clearly don't.
Very good posts MSP and Ernie although you know, Corbyn.
Absolutely spot-on IMHO @ rsl1.
Although I think the situation is far too advanced now for your last paragraph to be still applicable
If there was ever a time we needed PR it's now, or very soon.
In any PR system the centerist parties will win the majority of the seats and attract smaller parties of the same politic bent to join them as junior partners. Any coalition of a centre-left Labour party with support from a few Your Party MPs will look and feel no different to the current Labour party.
this really isn't about Corbyn at all
Bullshit. Didn’t read any further; apologies if it was a set up for a joke. This party is all about Corbyn, and him wanting to be seen to be dragged “reluctantly” to lead it.
I find it warmly reassuring that centrist supporters don't understand the problem, or at least are in denial, it's going to make it a lot easier for the Left.
Keeping thinking this is all about Corbyn and that we should just get behind Sir Keir Starmer who is doing a great job!
Crisis? What crises??
I think probably the ideal situation is that this party reminds the Labour party leadership where their roots are, drags them back leftwards to protect their core voter base and then only stands in tactical seats to limit the damage they do in splitting the vote.
Given the example we have in Scotland I doubt that will happen ( dragging them back to the left). too many folk in power in the labour party have built their entire careers on the position they stand in now that moving labour to the right is the correct way to go about things.
In Scotland we have the SNP who in recent history have been to the left of labour. Scottish labour at a couple of bye elections repudiated many of the right wing westminster labour policies. #They got firmly slapped down by westminster for doing so despite the fact this position won them a bye election.
Holyrood elections will be an interesting signpost to see what happens - it certainly looks like from polling that all the votes that went from SNP to Labour at the GE will mainly return to the SNP with some going to the greens. Tory vote small tho it is is mainly going to reform. No votes are going labour to reform
I agree with a lot of what you say on this forum MSP and I'm no doubt one of the left of center "centrists" you speak of and blame the ills of society on. So how do I vote?
Corbyn has always annoyed me with his hate of the EU and politics that haven't evolved since his 1974 "glory days". He lives in a microcosm detatched from the modern world and it's clear he doesn't understand it. As quoted he won't retire till he dies and then I'll go spit on his grave if I live longer. What he was doing in the Labour party I have no idea, the communist party was his natural home and he should have gone and lived in Poland in the 70s and taken his "comrade" bollocks with him. His "looney left" approach was counter productive and drove the leadership further right. I agreed with him on some issues, the NHS, Iraq... but having him on "our" side poisoned our causes.
Then we have Starmer, I said what I thought of him when there was the leadership battle when I felt he was too Tory light authoritarian for the Labour leadership. Since then he's turned further right invading the traditional Tory territory and purged voices that better represent Labour ideals.
Conservatives, forget it, the last Tory leader I felt any sympathy for was Ted Heath.
Reform, ****'em.
Green, be nice to hear something Green amid the Gay pride, tofu waffle. I voted for them but with eco-populist Polansky as leader probably wouldn't have. I went to Aberystwyth university too and would love to know which societies he was a member of - I reckon I can guess - formative years.
Which leaves me with the Lib Dems to squander my vote on.
I find it fascinating how some people on here see politics as some sort of personality contest.
And to think that the average voter gets such a hard time on STW
This party is all about Corbyn
Nah, my reading of it is the exact opposite. I'm pretty sure Corbyn has no appetite to be the centre of rightwing tabloid attention again. What he does appear to want though is something different to the normal top-down political party of the past and instead wants something rooted in democratic decision making and community activism and that can only be a good thing. His involvement is purely to bring his significant number of supporters into the fold, and once that's achieved I fully expect him to fade into the background while younger more energetic leaders take up the reigns.
Still though, like Ernie says if your view is typical among centrists then that's a good sign that they haven't a clue how to deal with this new party, just like they haven't a clue how to deal with Reform.
And by the way, all this 'leftwingers doing the tories a favour' stuff is total bollocks. The only people guilty of destroying Labour's chances at the next election are Keir Starmer, Angela Rayner and the rest of the PLP who still arrogantly think they can lecture voters about their 'unrealistic' expectations while pandering to every last wish of the super-rich.
I would argue that thanks to the media campaigns for and against him, Corbyn is the figurehead of leftwing UK politics as strongly as Farage is the right.
Wouldn't say I agree why the "why" there, but I would agree that there isn't anyone better placed to actually get heard, certainly not UK wide. There isn't really anyone else with a comparable level of media presence, which longer term is a problem in itself.
And if anyone is in any doubt that the UK needs a left-leaning anti-establishment party which fights the corner of working people, here's a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer who's planning on overruling the Supreme Court to protect the balance sheets of banks and financiers in the city.
I find it fascinating how some people on here see politics as some sort of personality contest.
Have a look at how the personality of the leader of the governing party defines the politics of the country and tell me why I'm wrong to consider the personality of leader an important criteria, more important than the party manifesto as modern leaders tear those up and do as they please the second they are elected.
Trump, Macron, Merkyl, Johnson, Starmer, Thatcher... just a few examples of where the personality of the leader defines the politics of a country. You'll find many more in history.
just a few examples of where the personality of the leader defines the politics of a country.
If this is true it would explain why politics in the UK is currently in the state its in.
There isn't really anyone else with a comparable level of media presence, which longer term is a problem in itself.
Yup. Unbelievably Corbyn is more recognisable to voters than either Nigel Farage or Keir Starmer !
According to a rolling YouGov poll of politicians’ name recognition, Corbyn is known by 98% of voters, more than Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage.
“Everyone knows who Jeremy Corbyn is, everyone knows who he stands for. And with any new party, that is not even half the battle. It’s three-quarters of the battle,” said Robert Ford, a professor of political science at Manchester University.
“A lot of people don’t like what he stands for, but that doesn’t matter, because he’s not aiming for everyone.”
Expect centrists to focus solely on Jeremy Corbyn's personality rather than any policies which he might argue in favour of. Corbyn is at his most dangerous when he argues in favour of policies which have widespread support among the voting public.
I am looking forward to the attempts to rehash the anti-semite allegations, it is going to present centrists with something of a problem whilst Israel is actively murdering hungry children, but they really don't have a lot to rely on.
The only other big criticism of Corbyn when he was Labour leader was that he would lose Labour the general election, I guess they could also try to rehash that but it is now likely to boost his standing.
Don't get me wrong - I would be delighted if this worked and had a home for my vote. I just think its not going to work at all.
I am looking forward to the attempts to rehash the anti-semite allegations, it is going to present centrists with something of a problem whilst Israel is actively murdering hungry children, but they really don't have a lot to rely on.
Yup - that will be funny to see the mental gymnastics
The only other big criticism of Corbyn when he was Labour leader was that he would lose Labour the general election, I guess they could also try to rehash that but it is now likely to boost his standing.
As anyone with any political understanding knows it was the actions of the labour right that lost the election. From Mandelsons actions in feeding stories to the right wing press to the labour / tory pact in Scotland that gave the tories 10 extra seats and saved Mays government. the labour right just could not cope with someone with leftish views being popular when they had spent their entire careers pushing labour to the right
tell me why I'm wrong to consider the personality of leader an important criteria
Because you said that had Zack Polanski been Green Party leader you personally would probably not have voted Green, despite the fact that it would have made no difference to Green Party policy. The Green Party doesn't operate like that.
Do you not realise how really grotesque it is for one person to decide the policies of a political party? Probably not because we have become so accustomed of Starmer, Farage, and whoever the Tory leader is, deciding what their respective party policies are.
Sir Keir Starmer can decide whilst he is sitting down having his early morning shit what Labour's policies on immigration or Israel will be on that day.
You can be 100% certain that this new party will not decide its policies in the same way as Labour, Reform, and the Tories. It will be a democratic party committed to democracy. It is weird that we have apparently reached the stage where some people believe that is an unachievable ideal.
According to a rolling YouGov poll of politicians’ name recognition, Corbyn is known by 98% of voters, more than Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage.
Everyone knows who Hitler was or Epstein, it doesnt mean they want them running anything more than a bath.
I completely agree with Corbyn on Israel but this new party is completely deluded if it thinks it will make any difference to what happens in Gaza even if it were in government, let alone with virtually no MPs.
Do you not realise how really grotesque it is for one person to decide the policies of a political party?
Yes, that is exactly why I'm so wary of the con men in politics. Slickly dressed Harley Street hypnotist skilled in spouting pseudo-scientific nonsense, actor in role-playing theatre... . I'd really like someone with their feet on the ground and a past anchored firmly in economic and scientific realities to lead the Green party.
Starmer in Feb 23: "if you don't like that, if you don't like the changes that we've made, I say the door is open, and you can leave".
Fair enough you cranky Tory.
Anyhow, good debating everyone with food for thought, I've blown up the tyres on the Bromptoms and may be some time. 🙂
According to a rolling YouGov poll of politicians’ name recognition, Corbyn is known by 98% of voters, more than Keir Starmer or Nigel Farage.
Everyone knows who Hitler was or Epstein, it doesnt mean they want them running anything more than a bath.
Despite my name being attributed to it I didn't make that comment, Robert Ford professor of political science did, and I see that you ignore the very next paragraph, why might that be?
“Everyone knows who Jeremy Corbyn is, everyone knows who he stands for. And with any new party, that is not even half the battle. It’s three-quarters of the battle,” said Robert Ford, a professor of political science at Manchester University.
I am perfectly happy for you to delude yourself into believing that no one will vote for a party led by Corbyn though, unfortunately the centrists in control of the Labour Party, and their mates in the Tory press, won't take such a casual attitude to the situation.
They will be fully aware that under Corbyn's energised party Labour became the largest political party in Western Europe with well over half a million members, since then it has lost a quarter of a million members.
They will also be aware that more people went down to their polling stations and voted Labour when Corbyn was leader than have since Starmer became leader.
The Daily Telegraph and the Spectator have already come to Starmer's rescue and relaunched their hate campaign against Corbyn even before the new party has had the chance to decide on a name. Expect others to follow shortly.
When you are a threat to the status quo in politics expect things to get very dirty. Otherwise just don't bother.
And Labour get rid of Dianne Abbot, seems like a win win for Sir Keir LMFAO
I am perfectly happy for you to delude yourself into believing that no one will vote for a party led by Corbyn though, unfortunately the centrists in control of the Labour Party, and their mates in the Tory press, won't take such a casual attitude to the situation.
And Im perfectly happy for you to delude yourself into believing that anyone will vote for a party led by Corbyn. I notice you are already lining ip the labour party and the Tory press to blame for the inevitable failure to change anything.
I notice you are already lining ip the labour party and the Tory press to blame for the inevitable failure to change anything.
No, just a simple observation, what makes you think that the Labour leadership and their chums in the right-wing press will take the same casual attitude concerning the threat that this party in the making poses?
The right-wing press has already kicked off.
The numbers Corbyn got in 2017 and even 2019 are inarguable.
You mean:
- 2017: 800,000 (2.3%) fewer votes than Theresa May?
- 2019: 3,700,000 (11.5%) fewer votes than Boris Johnson?!?
Hard to argue with them, yup.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election
Yep right wingers have always preferred disenfranchising the masses rather than actually offering change and hope.
Well done for promoting that as if it was a good thing.
I notice you are already lining ip the labour party and the Tory press to blame for the inevitable failure to change anything.
No, just a simple observation, what makes you think that the Labour leadership and their chums in the right-wing press will take the same casual attitude concerning the threat that this party in the making poses?
The right-wing press has already kicked off.
No suprise the right wing press will kick off but describing them as friendly to Labour is stretching any level of credibility to the limit. Have you read the right wing press recently. To say they loath Starmer would be kind
You mean:
- 2017: 800,000 (2.3%) fewer votes than Theresa May?
- 2019: 3,700,000 (11.5%) fewer votes than Boris Johnson?!?
A very good point politecamera !
In 2017 Labour received 12.88 million votes
In 2019 Labour received 10.27 million votes
And in 2024 Labour received 9.71 million votes
Which means that even in Corbyn's worse general election result Labour managed to get over half a million more votes than Sir Keir Starmer managed.
But I hadn't thought of Starmer's general election comparison with Theresa May and Boris Johnson. So yes, Starmer has attracted less votes in a general election than Theresa May, Boris Johnson, AND Jeremy Corbyn.
The only time Starmer really shines is when he is compared to Rishi Sunak!
So thanks for throwing in Theresa May and Boris Johnson into the mix to give a better perspective 👍
but describing them as friendly to Labour is stretching any level of credibility to the limit.
I didn't say friendly to Labour. I suggested friendly to the Labour leadership, ie Sir Keir Starmer. Yes they might sometimes appear to loath Starmer because that is part of their modus operandi but it is clear who they prefer given a choice between Starmer and Corbyn. Why do you think that might that be?
And they are very happy to let Starmer regularly write opinion pieces for their right-wing rags, I can't imagine them doing the same for Corbyn, why might that be?
Likewise you could be forgiven for believing that whilst in opposition Labour loathed the Tories and their right-wing policies and yet once in government it turns out that a lot of these Tory policies weren't that bad after all.. In fact some Tory policies such as the level of foreign aid was a bit too lefty, liberal, and generous, for Sir Keir Starmer.
Corbyn: even when he loses he wins. Which means his new party is going to be “successful” no matter what happens. Meanwhile others will have to get on with the thankless task of strengthening workers rights and restoring NHS services.
I'm not sure many Labour MPs, temporarily suspended or not, will jump across. There is simply too much benefit to being in a big party with all it's structures and support.
Also there is a genuine affinity for the history of the party and I'm guessing even disgruntled MPs on the left would be loath to sacrifice that history because of the current leadership. And finally on a pragmatic level retaining seats is much more likely under Labour than as an Your Party candidate apart from in a very small handful of places
What will be a problem for Labour is losing members. The membership is, on average to the left of the leadership and the PLP generally
Already membership is down significantly since the election and that hits party funding heavily.
Even more importantly the loss of active members - the party hugely relies on volunteers to function. Door knocking and leafleting are key factors in tight constituencies - if the party can't get boots on the ground it's in big troube