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If the labour right had not been briefing against him and made a pact with the tories in Scotland Mays government would have fallen and we would never have had brexit
And if the Labour right had not been briefing against and wishing for a Tory government there would have been a second referendum.
So that's a personal thanks from me.
exactly - a second referendum which almost certainly would have been remain
Interesting though your comments always are Ernesto, on what threads I should and shouldn’t comment on, do you have anything to add to your frankly ridiculous assertion that Corbyn wasn’t anti-EU?
Well it is you who has claimed that you stopped posting on the UK government thread because it had spoilt by Lefties, I am wondering what your excuse for posting on this thread is ?
Have I got anything to add to your frankly ridiculous assertion that as Labour leader Corbyn was as anti-EU as Nigel Farage?
Yes. Firstly provide me with a link which shows Corbyn as Labour leader denouncing the EU as Farage did. And secondly tell me what Sir Keir Starmer's position is on EU membership and also would you expect that to attract young voters?
As an added bonus perhaps you can tell me why so many young voters are attracted by Jeremy Corbyn and put off by Sir Keir Starmer?
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
Well at least you admit you are against re-joining, that is what you are saying isn't it? after all there is no re-joining the EU without freedom of movement it is a central pillar of the EU, so if you support that position then you are against re-joining, it is nothing more than a lie and con job to suggest anything else (which seeing it is Starmer saying it is just another in a long list).
And services are strained because of austerity, we all know that, but no surprise that those that used to shout loudest were just putting on a show and are have now fully embraced austerity, but blaming the damage done by austerity is caused by those nasty foreigners coming into the country is just another example of the racism embraced by the STW centrist mob.
Politecameraaction
What is the upside for a red / green alliance in Scotland for the greens? the greens are looking likely to be third largest party in the next holyrood election ( its tight for places 3-5 tho) Holyrood is elected more or less under PR.
Sorry - I should have been clearer. I was referring to a Green-Your Party alliance for FPTP Westminster seats in Scotland and NI.
Agreed that there's much less incentive for Holyrood and Stormont elections. And tbh I'm not entirely sure if an electoral pact between the Greens and Your Party makes sense: it seems like an arrangement that might disappoint both sides because they disagree on some fundamentals. And if you thought disagreeing on fundamentals but sticking with awkward alliances was a compromise worth making, you wouldn't join Your Party in the first place...
But tbf I'm neither a Green nor a Your Party supporter, and my predictions are usually wrong, so no-one GAS what I think.
Jeremy Corbyn says 'overwhelming case' for staying in EU
He was almost parroting Nigel Farage! 😂
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
Well at least you admit you are against re-joining, that is what you are saying isn't it? after all there is no re-joining the EU without freedom of movement it is a central pillar of the EU, so if you support that position then you are against re-joining, it is nothing more than a lie and con job to suggest anything else (which seeing it is Starmer saying it is just another in a long list).
Hold on - so you're saying that what Starmer said above shows that he is against free migration within the EU and therefore against EU membership? Just because he mentions the public concern around immigration? Crikey...
Is that the best you can come up with Unvle Jezza? It’s hardly a ringing endorsement of Remain from Grandad.
Hardly surprising from the lifelong Brexiteer. He’s as responsible for Brexit as Michael Gove, through his total disinterest in representing any views other than his own, which have always been vehemently anti-EU
When it comes to rabidly anti-EU sentiment, he really is no different to Farage
This is a complete rewriting of history. He campaigned for remain. he spoke in favour of remain at large numbers of rallies
Again falling into the Centrist Dad stereotype, the truth is between you and Binners. Corbyn is a lifelong EU sceptic but he also followed the democratically-determined Labour policy while he was leader...which was fair enough as that's what is demanded of shadow cabinet members.
I suspect that policy (which was a shambles) was more pro-European than Corbyn preferred.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stance
Hardly surprising from the lifelong Brexiteer. He’s as responsible for Brexit as Michael Gove
hold on - you can't simultaneously believe he's been a completely useless legislator who has failed in all his objectives throughout his parliamentary career and also that he was the secret co-architect of the most dramatic political development of the last 50 years...
Hold on - so you're saying that what Starmer said above shows that he is against free migration within the EU and therefore against EU membership? Just because he mentions the public concern around immigration? Crikey...
Yes absolutely, my words are quite clear, and I am happy to stand by them, unlike right wingers on here pretending to be centrists who when they realise the stupidity and ignorance of their comments try and squirm away and pretend they meant something completely different.
Funny how the usual suspects (or just one of them) are back to denounce 'lefty 6th formers' after holding their tongue for so long on the Govt thread. Might be useful to compare and contrast...
Your Party:
- Tax corporations and billionaires fairly to fund public services.
- Prevent private corporations from profiting from the NHS.
- Bring utilities back into public ownership.
- Stop funding endless wars and supporting genocide in the Middle East
Labour Party:
- Relaxing post-2008 city regulations to enable banks to make more profit.
- Continuing austerity and higher taxes for working people.
- Perpetuating child poverty by continuing the two child benefit cap.
- Remove benefits from the poorest and most vulnerable people in society.
- Enabling genocide in Gaza by allowing weaponse components to be be supplied and training the IDF.
- Clamping down on and demonizing migrants
Lets ignore all the above though and concentrate on what 'magic grandad' said about the EEC in the early 80s, because that's what really matters in 2025!
But tbf I'm neither a Green nor a Your Party supporter, and my predictions are usually wrong, so no-one GAS what I think.
I was interested in your reasoning
If our resident lefties could compile some sort of list about who exactly is allowed by them to comment on what, that’d be a great help to the rest of us 😃
If our resident lefties could compile some sort of list about who exactly is allowed by them to comment on what, that’d be a great help to the rest of us
Says the man who has spent the last 10 years on here doing everything possible to cancel, ridicule and silence anyone with a left-of-centre political viewpoint. Binners: STW's human daily mail chatbot. 😀
the greens are looking likely to be third largest party in the next holyrood election ( its tight for places 3-5 tho)
The problem here is twofold. 1) No-one cares about Scotland and 2) No-one cares about the Greens.
Westminster hasn't given the slightest of ****s about anything that isn't London or the Home Counties for years (and lest we forget, the population of London is about double the population of the entirety of Scotland). When the Right Honourable MP for Thrutching, West Yorkshire stands up in Parliament to demand to know what they're proposing to do about immigrants coming in on small trains from the other side of the Pennines there's about three people on the benches one of whom is asleep, another who's doing a Sudoku and a third who took a wrong turning on their way to the bar.
As for the Greens: Can anyone name their current leader? Come to that, can anyone name any of their previous leaders? (This isn't a test as I have no doubts that some of you can, but your Man On The Clapham Omnibus likely won't be able to.)
I genuinely wish that things were different, but here we are. Boasting about being the third largest party in Scotland is like hitting a red sector on Bully's prize board with your third dart. Enjoy your Teasmade.
Looks like the whole gangs here? Do you have a sign? A flaming little red book, maybe?
I’ll leave you all to furiously agree with each other and denounce any non-believers 😃
If our resident lefties could compile some sort of list about who exactly is allowed by them to comment on what, that’d be a great help to the rest of us 😃
How bizarre, according to you it was very much a case of self-censorship. Apparently you were no longer prepared to engage with Lefties on the thread discussing the current Labour government.
I am fascinated to learn why you are suddenly so enthusiastic to engage with exactly the same people on this thread.
Nothing to do with the fact your halfwit Prime Minister who has alienated so many voters and now appears to be handing Nigel Farage a general election victory on a plate has become a total embarrassment to you?
I’ll leave you all to furiously agree with each other and denounce any non-believers
Or you could present a coherent argument, rather than a series of tired jibes and Monty Python memes. Worth a try, surely?
Corbyn is a lifelong EU sceptic
Whilst this may be true, there is something of a leap between being EU-sceptical and being pro-Brexit / anti-EU. Being sceptical is laudable, asking "are we doing the right thing here?" is a sensible stance. The tabloids love nothing better than a "[something controversial] is being discussed in Parliament" headline on a slow news day but that's how politics works (for some value of 'works' at any rate).
Whatever happened to "Country before party"?
you can't simultaneously believe he's been a completely useless legislator who has failed in all his objectives throughout his parliamentary career and also that he was the secret co-architect of the most dramatic political development of the last 50 years...
As far as I can tell from Binners' crusade, Corbyn's biggest crime was that he potentially had a chance to put a stop to brexit and didn't.
I think I can agree on this to a point. Whenever Corbyn did/said anything, the gutter press were on him like a tramp on hot chips. Meanwhile Dominar Nigel XVI was hailed as the Second Coming. With the benefit of hindsight it should've been obvious how all this was going to play out. Yet almost a decade on, we've still not learned anything. "Your Party" is doomed to failure for the simple reason that the gutter press will bury it as soon as they perceive it to be an actual threat rather than an amusing curiosity.
I was referring to a Green-Your Party alliance for FPTP Westminster seats in Scotland and NI.
Given the disagreements between the Scottish Greens and the English/Welsh greens I suspect forming an alliance with one would rule out an alliance with the other.
Hold on - so you're saying that what Starmer said above shows that he is against free migration within the EU and therefore against EU membership? Just because he mentions the public concern around immigration? Crikey...
Yes absolutely, my words are quite clear, and I am happy to stand by them, unlike right wingers on here pretending to be centrists who when they realise the stupidity and ignorance of their comments try and squirm away and pretend they meant something completely different.
Right. So it would be a "lie and a con job" to pretend those words quoted above meant anything other than opposition to free migration in the EU and opposition to EU membership. Got it.
But the words quoted aren't Starmer's. It's......Jeremy Corbyn's speech.
https://jeremycorbyn.org.uk/my-speech-on-the-result-of-the-eu-referendum/
As for the Greens: Can anyone name their current leader? Come to that, can anyone name any of their previous leaders? (This isn't a test as I have no doubts that some of you can, but your Man On The Clapham Omnibus likely won't be able to.)
Well the obvious name is Caroline Lucas and I think quite a few members of the public could name her, certainly potential Green voters.
But that is the point, the new party has, whether you like him or not, a very high profile front man. And perhaps more importantly he is actually liked by the very voters that this new party is targeting.
Jeremy Corbyn's popularity among a lot of voters should not be underestimated he very easily beat the Labour Party candidate at the last general election.
So this is why it would make a lot of sense for the Green Party to go into an alliance with the new party. The Greens are never likely to have high profile politicians in their own right, and not least because their leaders have limited influence and are only elected for two years. Standing alongside Corbyn and being an important part of a movement wider than themselves would massively boost their profile.
I genuinely believe that under the current political climate that if the Greens and the new left-wing party get their act together they could realistically get up to 20% of the vote in a general election.
It looks increasingly likely that no party will win a majority at the next general election, Reform are the only ones currently in the running for that, so it is therefore quite possible that politicians from both the Greens and the new party could be cabinet ministers after the next general election.
Which, in my mind at least, would be a massive step forward. Other opinions are available.
Your Party:
- Tax corporations and billionaires fairly to fund public services.- Prevent private corporations from profiting from the NHS.
- Bring utilities back into public ownership.
- Stop funding endless wars and supporting genocide in the Middle Eas
But your party don’t have any policies yet as they haven’t worked out who will be entitled to propose them or vote on them.
So this is why it would make a lot of sense for the Green Party to go into an alliance with the new party.
The main problem with the Green party, as indicated by their name, is their obsession with climate policy and their focus on environmental issues. It's understandable, that's why they were set up, and they reflect the concerns and anxieties about climate change and other environmental issues held by middle class liberals and the younger generation. But however much they adopt and promote left-wing economic policies, they're never going to be recognised for those.
Conversely, a new left party can focus on economic policy and social justice. Add the two together in an alliance and there's a perfect opportunity to combine progressive leftwing economics and social justice with net-zero and other environmental concerns. Seems like a no-brainer to me but I question whether the liberal academic culture in the Green party will be able to tolerate the more proletarian class-based politics of this new left party.
Right. So it would be a "lie and a con job" to pretend those words quoted above meant anything other than opposition to free migration in the EU and opposition to EU membership. Got it.
But the words quoted aren't Starmer's. It's......Jeremy Corbyn's speech.
Try reading that speach by the way, I can quote some bits if you like, as you apear to be at best misrepresenting it, or likely were to lazy to read it.
The Tories’ choice; to make deprived communities pay for a crisis not of their making has opened the door to a nastier, more divisive politics.
That has sought to blame immigrants, not government, governments that let industry go to the wall that have failed to invest, that have deregulated the labour market and have turned a deaf ear to those communities left behind.
I want to be clear – the chronic housing crisis across our country is the direct result of this government’s politics – flogging off public housing whilst failing to build homes for all.
Migration will be part of it and that will be led by our shadow home secretary Andy Burnham and our shadow immigration minister Keir Starmer as they travel around Britain.
The whole country must come together in the wake of what became a divisive referendum campaign discuss the consequences calmly and rationally and I want Labour to lead that debate.
That’s why Labour backed restoring the Migration Impact Fund to relieve pressure on local services such as schools, GPs surgeries and housing in areas of high migration. That fund was established by Gordon Brown in 2008 but was abolished by David Cameron in 2010.
We must talk about immigration but we will never pander to prejudice.
Quite different to Starmers "island of strangers" and "immigration has caused incalculable damage". And of course his constant eagerness to keep immigration front and centre in the media and of his dismissal of freedom of movement which absolutely rules out re-joining the EU and yet his fanbois keep ignoring.
I absolutely disagree with Corbyns historic opposition to the EU, I don't know what his current position on the EU is, but I am sure I would get an honest answer from him unlike slippery Starmer who would happily lie into the face of anyone.
I will also state my view on the EU, I want to re-join, but I don't think it will cure any of the economic and social problems the country is facing, we have had steady growth for the past 25 years, with troughs and peaks but that economic growth has outstripped wage growth, and it has created a huge asset bubble which is leaching the economic power from most people, the housing costs are generational debt that is having a far bigger impact on peoples lives than government debt. And all that happened within and outside the EU, and the same problems are being faced currently in the EU.
You notice that is how you have an honest conversation, by actually telling people what you believe in, when a politician says "we" need to have an honest conversation, it is because he or she is lying, they have absolutely no intention of having an honest conversation, they at best want to avoid the conversation or more likely feed bullshit to the gullible.
I genuinely believe that under the current political climate that if the Greens and the new left-wing party get their act together they could realistically get up to 20% of the vote in a general election.
You are of course entitled to your belief but in the real word there is no change of them getting more than about 2 MPs. They will end up with fewer MPs than the greens
So this is why it would make a lot of sense for the Green Party to go into an alliance with the new party. The Greens are never likely to have high profile politicians in their own right, and not least because their leaders have limited influence and are only elected for two years. Standing alongside Corbyn and being an important part of a movement wider than themselves would massively boost their profile.
None of this applies in Scotland. Greens are expected to double their MSPs at the next holyrood election. having had representation in parliament for decades they have decent recognition
Is this new movement going to follow a green aghenda? If so join the greens an established set of parties. If not why would the greens dilute their message in joining with a smaller less influential group?
Sorry dude - this is the height of delusion. There is nothing for the greens in joining this ragtag leftish splinter group
I genuinely believe that under the current political climate that if the Greens and the new left-wing party get their act together they could realistically get up to 20% of the vote in a general election.
20% gets you virtually zero representation under fptp. greens in Scotland in a 5 party systyem get 16+% already.
Again nothing for the greens in doing this
The main problem with the Green party, as indicated by their name, is their obsession with climate policy and their focus on environmental issues. It's understandable, that's why they were set up, and they reflect the concerns and anxieties about climate change and other environmental issues held by middle class liberals and the younger generation. But however much they adopt and promote left-wing economic policies, they're never going to be recognised for those.
Without following a green agenda the planet is going to become uninhabitable. Its the single most important issue and dwarfs everything else. also true green policies are in opposition to a lot of the usual policies from the left - ie zero growth
when a politician says "we" need to have an honest conversation, it is because he or she is lying, they have absolutely no intention of having an honest conversation, they at best want to avoid the conversation or more likely feed bullshit to the gullible.
🤔 Surely you're not saying Jeremy Corbyn was lying when he said:
we cannot duck the issue of immigration, instead we need to start an honest and rational debate.
https://jeremycorbyn.org.uk/my-speech-on-the-result-of-the-eu-referendum/
The main problem with the Green party, as indicated by their name, is their obsession with climate policy
I'm not a Green but...we literally face a climate threat that could continue to kill millions and millions of people, and that's not even the worst case scenario!
(I'm conscious that a lot of this broader Greens chat is technically off topic. Maybe I'll start another thread...)
Without following a green agenda the planet is going to become uninhabitable. Its the single most important issue and dwarfs everything else.
I don't disagree, but working people are primarily concerned with keeping a roof over their heads and providing for their families today, rather than worrying too much about what might happen 30-50 years time when they're long dead. The only way of achieving the green policies to mitigate and (unlikely) prevent climate collapse is to get working people onside via progressive economic policies and social justice. If the solution to climate change is to make working people poorer while the rich get a free pass, then it's not going to happen.
also true green policies are in opposition to a lot of the usual policies from the left - ie zero growth
Being pro-growth is not a leftwing policy, it's a classic neo-liberal trickle down trope. Maybe back in the 50s and 60s it was a thing with Keynesian economic policy, but that's long gone. I think most working people have twigged that higher GDP doesn't translate to higher incomes and quality of life for them. If ever the left were going to align with greens on zero growth sustainable economics, now is the time.
I will also state my view on the EU, I want to re-join, but I don't think it will cure any of the economic and social problems the country is facing,
It doesn't have to.
Leaving the EU was never going to cure any of the economic and social problems the country was facing either, but that's how it was sold, and that's what people bought. Or at least, what they thought they were buying ("we know what we voted for!" and all that).
The difference between honesty and lies is Marketing, and the liars are winning because they're better at it. People don't want "truth" and "integrity," they want to be told what they want to hear.
Corbyn, the duplicitous old goat 3 line whipped the labour party into voting article 50 through..
He could have allowed a free vote for his MPs and that would have stopped brexit also.
He chose the authoritarian approach though!
What a hypocrite...
His head should be on a spike next to farrage.
Pure ideological selfishness.
Look at corbyns actual actions, don't listen to his mealy mouthed words.
The man is insidious.
Being pro-growth is not a leftwing policy,
I'll believe a left wing party calling for zero growth when I see it. Its never been the case so far that I have seen.
The greens already have a highly redistributive agenda - again what is the advantage for them in joining with this group?
Leftists are fighting the last war, greens are fighting the next
He could have allowed a free vote for his MPs and that would have stopped brexit also.
NO it wouldn't. The pro brexit parties had a majority and many labour MPs would have voted for brexit
Although I would be lying if I said part of me wasn't looking forward to see what utter drivel he writes in his manifesto, should be good for a laugh!
I mean the **** 3 line whipped for gods sake... If that's not authoritarian I don't know what is, pmsl!
Surely you're not saying Jeremy Corbyn was lying when he said:
No, because he then went on to actually tell us his beliefs, which were consistent with everything he told us over a long period of time.
But lets get back to your original quote which started this exchange, since you seem to want to do anything and everything to avoid it.
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
Which is written in black and white, clearly states your opposition to re-joining the EU and freedom of movement, your distain for left wing and green politics, and then the suggestion that immigration is the cause the strain on public services. Of course I don't know if you actually believe any of the nonsense you freely spout in your constant attempts at attacking progressive politics, but I will give you a chance to at least try and defend them rather than the desperate evasion tactics that you have tried and failed at.
There's nothing progressive about corbyn... Regressive, sure.
I genuinely believe that under the current political climate that if the Greens and the new left-wing party get their act together they could realistically get up to 20% of the vote in a general election.
You are of course entitled to your belief but in the real word there is no change of them getting more than about 2 MPs. They will end up with fewer MPs than the greens
Since you mention the real world let's talk about it.
Working on the assumption that the pro-Palestine left-wing independent MPs, who like Corbyn beat Labour candidates, will be joining this new party when it is officially formed it will instantly result in them having 6 MPs which will be 2 more than Reform currently have.
Bearing in mind that this arithmetic is based solely on the general election result at a time when Labour was far more popular than it is now and when they won a landslide victory it is extremely unlikely that they will lose any of those seats at the next general election.
And not just because Labour is considerably less popular now than they were 12 months ago but also because Labour are now far more complicit to supporting the genocidal far-right regime in Israel than they were whilst in opposition.
Support for a left-wing pro-Palestine alternative to Labour can only realistically grow over the next 4 years, there is no reasonable prospect that it will diminish.
Indeed you can say with near enough one hundred percent certainty that the Labour Health Secretary will easily lose his seat at the next general election. There even a realistic possibility that Keir Starmer's seat is at risk. Certainly throughout the country Labour seats are vulnerable.
Not increasing on their current share of 6 seats is unlikely as Reform not winning dozens of seats more. UK politics has changed, time to accept this reality.
There's nothing progressive about corbyn... Regressive, sure.
Well it is Starmer happily doing the oligarchs bidding and allowing such increasing wealth inequality, while toadying up to fascist emperor Trump, that we will soon be regressed back to the feudal system.
Although I would be lying if I said part of me wasn't looking forward to see what utter drivel he writes in his manifesto, should be good for a laugh!
I don't think you have really quite grasped the concept that they are not targeting you.
That is the whole point of this new party, they couldn't give a monkeys about people like you, they are not trying to please everyone with the inevitable result of pissing off everyone, as Starmer seems particularly apt at doing.
They know full well that in all likelihood they will get 15-25% of the vote (possibly a similar amount to Labour) and that there will almost certainly be a coalition government after the next general election. Who honestly believes that one party will win a majority?
That opens up the chance of them having actual influence on UK government policy, even if 75-85% of voters, including you mattyfez, haven't voted for them.
You going to take the bet they get less than 6 mps Ernie? I am confident enough to wager all the Greggs ( or artisanal sourdough) you can eat at a sitting