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Yep right wingers have always preferred disenfranchising the masses rather than actually offering change and hope.
I suppose if Corbyn's objective was to encourage turnout then he did a great job. Unfortunately, he was even better at getting people off the couch to vote for the Tories than he was at convincing people to show up and vote Labour: the Tories increased their vote share in each general election where Corbyn was the leader. Unarguable numbers, like our friend above might say.
Corbynites love the "Corbyn got more votes than Starmer" statistic because they think it somehow counts as a win. It's like saying that Scotland is a better rugby team than New Zealand because Scotland scored more points in their match than the All Blacks did in another match. It's superficially attractive but actually nonsense.
Corbynites love the "Corbyn got more votes than Starmer" statistic because they think it somehow counts as a win.
I think the appeal is probably on several levels including that it blows apart the myth that Sir Keir Starmer is vastly more popular than Jeremy Corbyn was.
Plus it exposes the fact that Sir Keir Starmer had to rely on Nigel Farage inadvertently coming to his aid by not boycotting the last general election as he had the previous one. Imagine having to rely on a right-wing demagogue for your landslide victory?
2% more than Corbyn's worse result isn't exactly great, nor is a quarter of a million votes less than his Corbyn's worse result, so thank **** for the vagaries of the widely discredited British first-past-the-post system because that is all the Starmerites have to trumpet.
A polling system which will almost certainly shaft them at the next general election.
Corbynites love the "Corbyn got more votes than Starmer" statistic because they think it somehow counts as a win. It's like saying that Scotland is a better rugby team than New Zealand because Scotland scored more points in their match than the All Blacks did in another match. It's superficially attractive but actually nonsense
Winning the argument?
I’ve made this point before that when you listen to the members of the cult of Magic Grandad it’s like listening to Jose Mourhino after his side has just been humped 4 nil.
His post-match interviews would come across like he’d watched a completely different game.
He’d come out with some load of old cobblers about them enjoying more possession than the opposition during the first 15 minutes of the second half, and they had more corners. Like that matters. Who cares? You still got battered!
In politics, as in football, there’s only the answer to one question that matters….
Who won?
The rest is just pointless, irrelevant waffle. The Corbynistas do seem to really liove their pointless, irrelevant waffle though. Certainly more than they like winning elections. I suppose it detracts them from realising they just enabled yet more years of Tory rule
Especially if there are online petitions to sign (and post up on Facebook, obviously) and a nice day out in London where you get to wave some placards (and post up on Facebook, obviously)
Jeezus, if this is actually true it is quite remarkable
Hundreds of thousands of Brits have signed up to Jeremy Corbyn’s new socialist party overtaking the Conservative Party’s membership base in just 24 hours.
It is also just 27,000 away from catching up with Nigel Farage’s Reform UK.
Obviously there are the caveats that none have paid any membership dues and they won't know any details of specific policies which they themselves will have to formulate at some point, but that is quite an achievement in just 24 hours.
The unnamed party appears to have found a void in UK politics with a receptive audience.
No membership fees, no name, no leader and no policies?
Sounds brilliant! Where do I sign?
I do find it interesting that several posters talk about votes being taken from Labour, as if the party could simply rely on weighing rather than counting them at the next general election. It's this conceited arrogance that will be its undoing.
Labour doesn't have a right to anything, and if it wants people to vote for it, it should try offering policies which will improve their lives.
No membership fees, no name, no leader and no policies?
Sounds brilliant! Where do I sign?
I love how this new party in the making is being mocked for being built as a bottom up grassroots movement, the very thing that the UK desperately needs so that ordinary people can be reconnected with politics.
The whole concept seems so alien to contemporary UK politics, even its name will be decided by its members which for some incredulous people warrants ridicule!
Yes this new party as yet has no name, no leader, and no policies, it will be for its members to decide, nor is the first thing they ask for money, how crazy is all that?? It sounds similar to when the Labour Party was set up and that was over a hundred years ago!
The great irony of course is that it appears to be the very antithesis of what the Labour Party has become today.......a deeply undemocratic cult of the personality without an actual "personality".
And a right-wing one at that.
No membership fees, no name, no leader and no policies?
Sounds brilliant! Where do I sign?
Looking at their intentions and very high level take on what they see as the problems and what should be done about them which bits don't you like. I think you were a Labour supporter weren't you (or maybe you still are), doesn't this sound like the sort of thing you would want?
https://www.yourparty.uk/statement
No membership fees, no name, no leader and no policies?
Sounds brilliant! Where do I sign?
Jesus that's even less time I gave Starmer to do something positive.
I can remember the mockery when Corbyn popped up the first time around with regard to membership and how the Telegraph thought it was a joke as he'd never get the numbers.
It's worth remembering currently the mockery currently should be reserved for Starmer and his gang of incompetent Tory bandits that have literally delivered day after day of massive abject failure, and political disaster - like being 14 PTS behind Reform before the Corbyn's plan turned up
Literally every bit of Labour hope and a exciting opportunity has been sucked into a real black-hole created by these utter corporate dildos.
(That's if you're even moderately critical and serious about right-wing push back.)
Binners is right,winning is everything.That way you can watch pensioners freeze to death and attack the most vulnerable of the poor At least your new best mate Donald will be pleased with you.
Yes this new party as yet has no name, no leader, and no policies, it will be for its members to decide
Art imitating life or life imitating art? Are the Python references a little too close to home?
Are the Python references a little too close to home?
No just boring, repetitive, predictable and unproductive.
Are the Python references a little too close to home?
Nah, I think they are great. If you are into 6th form humour and you struggle understanding grown-up politics.
Nigel Farage's Reform UK has a 14 point lead over an incompetent and deeply unpopular Labour government.......... crisis? What crisis??
Are the Python references a little too close to home?
No just boring, repetitive, predictable and unproductive.
I beg to differ, I think they are quite productive, they expose just how intellectually bankrupt the centrists are.
Puerile mocking and ridicule is all that they have left. I think it's great!
And ****ing annoying!
Puerile mocking and ridicule is all that they have left.
sitting down having his early morning shit
Another 'centrist' here.. I'll read his manifesto in due course, if it gets that far. I suspect it will be more a curiosity than a serious plan.
I doubt it will countain anything on things like defence and European relations that might interest me, but I'll see what, if anything they have to say about that.
The Corbynistas do seem to really liove their pointless, irrelevant waffle though.
Of all people, you have no room to accuse others of pointless, irrelevant waffle when it comes to Corbyn. Your one-man crusade has had more to say about him across many STW threads than the rest of the forum - whether they're pro-Corbyn, anti-Corbyn or Corbyn-ambivalent - put together. And by "more" I mean by volume rather than new content.
For the love of gods at least come up with a new nickname. "Magic Grandad" was genuinely hilarious when you first coined it, about ten years ago.
I beg to differ, I think they are quite productive, they expose just how intellectually bankrupt the centrists are.
I keep hearing on here about these "centrists." Who are they, exactly?
Puerile mocking and ridicule is all that they have left.
sitting down having his early morning shit
I think you will find that I add a bit of politics to my mocking and ridicule.
I have no idea why you apparently think that is an example of me mocking though, it was actually a very serious point concerning how dire the situation is when it comes to democracy within the Labour Party.
I'll read his manifesto in due course
I think that you might have missed the point. It won't be his manifesto it will be theirs.
Bizarre concept eh? A manifesto not decided by one person, whatever next?!?
I'll read his manifesto in due course
I think that you might have missed the point. It won't be his manifesto it will be theirs.
Bizarre concept eh? A manifesto not decided by one person, whatever next?!?
I think you missed my point, but whatever... I'll read 'it', proably raise an eyebrow, maybe a semi-eye roll, and then carry on with my day.
I keep hearing on here about these "centrists." Who are they, exactly?
There have been plenty of people happy to call them Centrists on here in many discussions from time to time.
Because, (and I have empathy here) they believed this to be a form of lefty-moderation. (without understanding they were working within the right-wing construct of the economy; markets etc, inequality, OBR technocracy etc) Anyone who was paying attention to politics across the world could see this one coming, and could see the right-wing mugging game that some Centrists were hood-winked into.
And whilst I could take a guess who leans that way - I wouldn't be so rude as to call them a number of 30 or 40 or whatever us on the left are called. To be fair some Centrists totally get that the economy can't go on like this but seem baffled there might be a better way. It's known as T.I.N.A. and has been pushing against left-wing economics for years now so Centrists got suckered in here that the status-quo economic models were correct. (which is a bit on the nose given the lack of papers supporting neo-liberal framing.) Well the trouble is they just simply ignored poor public outcomes and started listening to IFS muffins.
But then don't complain when you end up with just raving righty political outcomes!
I expect over time Centrism will become the new out of favour political embarrasment and maybe being moderate shall be the get out clause.
We’re all centrists in a mixed economy. You can throw the name at anyone or anything.
I’m left wing, but accept that capitalism is here to stay, evil or otherwise (and it tends to the former without protections in place). Removal of capitalism and replacing it with complete centralised state control has also tended towards evil as well of course. Perhaps there’s a way through the, er, middle of that conundrum? Liberal social democracy? We’re tending away from that in much of Europe, with deliberate pressure from both the USA and Russia.
We’re all centrists in a mixed economy. You can throw the name at anyone or anything.
I’m left wing, but accept that capitalism is here to stay, evil or otherwise (and it tends to the former without protections in place).
Doesn't mean you support the righty ideals of Centrism at all.
I mean it appears to me if Starmer's government is supposed to be Centrist - then it's delusional as it's stacked to be right-wing.
The minute you decide finances are tight - you are a neoliberal becuase it plays into that economic environment and rotates all its failings (lack of growth, poor distribution, poor ineqaulity, shoddy services and bullshit jobs.)
I’m left wing, but accept that capitalism is here to stay, evil
Maybe capitalism in some form but neolibralism is not going to survive. Nothing lasts forever.
For the love of gods at least come up with a new nickname. "Magic Grandad" was genuinely hilarious when you first coined it, about ten years ago.
The Daily Telegraph still think it's hilarious funny (although apparently Corbyn is no laughing matter) and I think binners is probably just one heartbeat away from your average Telegraph reader.
Yesterday's Daily Telegraph headline :
Maybe to a point. But only in so far as any political movement covers several areas of political ideals.
I mean is Reform Centrist - they seem to grab and pull from whatever wing they see fit to suit the voting intention - bit like Labour.
I'd put myself close to Green/Left ideals - but I'm pretty low on being an eco-warrior. I've just come back from a transatlantic flight FFS. But overall I'd prefer to live in their version of the world etc. Many of us understand the contradictions and fail purity tests whatever that means.
However, Centrist goverments do lean right on the economy so that marks them out for me at least as a disaster.
the righty ideals of Centrism.
Well it's out there. We have one of those in government. TINA.
I don’t consider myself a “Centrist”, but I’m pretty sure I’d fail the purity tests of anyone who throws that word around as an insult on a regular basis.
I don't see Centrism - especialiy given it's taken the one opportunity we had for good progressive governance - and totally ****ed it up - should escape huge amounts of insults. Labour and Centrism deserve every last ounce of criticism if after one year they made a path for Reform like they did.
The staggering bit for me is the total lack of reflection on how terrible things have got becuase of Centrism. It fails to push back at the thing it pretends to want to stop.
I would say the evidence bears it out or we would be living in a better world and not pretending capitalism is the only option - based on purely public purpose.
2% more than Corbyn's worse result isn't exactly great, nor is a quarter of a million votes less than his Corbyn's worse result, so thank **** for the vagaries of the widely discredited British first-past-the-post system because that is all the Starmerites have to trumpet.
Remind me, how many general elections did Corbyn win? He only had Mrs May or clown johnson to beat and still couldnt manage it. It doesnt matter how many votes you get if you still lose.
Binners is right,winning is everything.That way you can watch pensioners freeze to death and attack the most vulnerable of the poor
Well call me a stereotypical Centrist Dad, but I believe there is a sensible point on the spectrum between "naked populism to win power so you can watch pensioners freeze to death" and "eternal smug opposition unwilling and unable to effect change". Some other middle class sellout once said "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it".
Let's see at which end of the spectrum Your Party end up at in due course.
Anyone who doesn't support either violent revolution, or the radical overthrow of multi-party democracies via some other means to replace them with either outright fascism, or authoritarian rule is by definition; a centrist. So if you want PR not FPTP you're a centrist, if you want there to be a choice of religion, but but nothing state sanctioned, you're a centrist, if you want a welfare state paid for by taxation of the wealthy and corporations... If you don't want to live in either soviet-era Russia or the John Birch Society's vision of the American future, guess what?
Anything else is just comment and hedging your bet.
I keep hearing on here about these "centrists." Who are they, exactly?
Just on here ? It is a term very widely used in the media to denote a particular political position, in the same way that Tory, or Socialist, or far-right, or communist, are used. It's a political label.
If you are a centrist I can't for the life of me understand why you would be offended by being called one. After all no one expects a Tory to be offended if you call them a Tory, and I am certainly not offended if I am called a commie.
I can however see how someone might be offended by the term if they were not actually a centrist. For example I would take it as an insult to be called me a centrist in the same way that calling Sir Keir Starmer a communist would probably be designed as an insult.
As to what the term actually means it is just a fairly recent new fancy way to describe what was formally described as "moderates", eg "Labour Party moderates" have become "Labour Party centrists".
And the reason for the change? Well I am not entirely sure but I suspect that it is because as the political crisis within Western liberal democracies deepens offering yourself as a "moderate" doesn't exactly inspire confidence that you have fully grasped the urgency of the problem.
"Centrist" sounds less docile and accepting of the status quo whilst conjuring up an image of rejecting both right and left extremes and coming up with some sort of radical "third way".
I keep hearing on here about these "centrists." Who are they, exactly?
Just on here ? It is a term very widely used in the media to denote a particular political position, in the same way that Tory, or Socialist, or far-right, or communist, are used. It's a political label.
If you are a centrist I can't for the life of me understand why you would be offended by being called one. After all no one expects a Tory to be offended if you call them a Tory, and I am certainly not offended if I am called a commie.
I can however see how someone might be offended by the term if they were not actually a centrist. For example I would take it as an insult to be called me a centrist in the same way that calling Sir Keir Starmer a communist would probably be designed as an insult.
As to what the term actually means it is just a fairly recent new fancy way to describe what was formally described as "moderates", eg "Labour Party moderates" have become "Labour Party centrists".
And the reason for the change? Well I am not entirely sure but I suspect that it is because as the political crisis within Western liberal democracies deepens offering yourself as a "moderate" doesn't exactly inspire confidence that you have fully grasped the urgency of the problem.
"Centrist" sounds less docile and accepting of the status quo whilst conjuring up an image of rejecting both right and left extremes and coming up with some sort of radical "third way".
I strongly reject your definition there.
I call myself centrist because of you asked me a thousand different questions regarding my political beliefs, some would be left, some would be a right, some would be more liberal and some would be more authoritarian.
Centrism isn’t one position, it's the net average result of many slightly differing positions, depending on the questions posed.
Calling it anything else or attempting to label it as a defined political movement is simply wrong, and is only spoken of in that way by the ill informed or those wanting to deceive.
Calling it anything else or attempting to label it as a defined political movement is simply wrong
Who the hell has defined it as a political movement? I said that it is another term for "moderate". I even spelt it out by pointing out that "Labour Party moderate" has become "Labour Party centrist"
It's a political label not a political movement and that is exactly how the term is used across the media.
Calling it anything else or attempting to label it as a defined political movement is simply wrong
Who the hell has defined it as a political movement? I said that it is another term for "moderate". I even spelt it out by pointing out that "Labour Party moderate" has become "Labour Party centrist"<
Erm you just did. Lol
"It is a term very widely used in the media to denote a particular.."
It's not particular at all.
For example if you ask me if I think we should have a national health service and a police force, I'd say yes to both.. that's a right wing answer and a left wing answer.
Does that make me left wing or right wing?
Clearly not.
So what does it make me, if not centrist?
That you and others choose to manipulate the word for your own narrative is simply irrelevant, and tiresome.
Erm you just did. Lol
Erm no I have not defined the term centrist as a political movement I have defined it as another word for "moderate " LOL
I use the term in exactly the same context as newspapers, TV news readers, etc use it. And if that winds you up you must be a very angry man LOL
I appreciate that there is very little cost involved in people signing up to find out more about this but in well under 48 hours they’ve had more than 400,000 people sign up to find out more.
If that were to translate into members (when it’s possible) that would easily make them bigger than any of the other political parties in the UK.
Erm you just did. Lol
Erm no I have not defined the term centrist as a political movement I have defined it as another word for "moderate " LOL
I use the term in exactly the same context as newspapers, TV news readers, etc use it. And if that winds you up you must be a very angry man LOL
Not angry, just bemused by the idiocy or purposeful misdirection of some.
So do tell, rather than parroting what you see in your chosen media! how would you define centrist?
If that were to translate into members (when it’s possible) that would easily make them bigger than any of the other political parties in the UK.
So all the Momentum 3 quid trots who colonised the Labour Party under Milliband, to vote for Jezza, now get a cut price alternative for 3 quid less?
At the time they were endlessly banging on about this making it the largest mass-membership of any political party in Europe.
And what did that achieve exactly?
Well there was the Brexit-enabling, Theresa Mays election victory, Boris Johnson’s election victory with an enormous majority, the worst electoral defeat in Labours history, a lot of placards and online petitions and erm… no, I think that pretty much covers it
it’ll just be exactly what it was before. A particularly large 6th form common room
’Your’ Common Room
It sounds like this new party will be a complete failure binners, that will be a huge relief for Downing Street.
Btw I was wondering, are you still sticking to your prediction that Reform UK won't be around by the time of the next general election?
Only the very latest opinion poll gives Reform UK a 14 point lead over Labour and every single opinion poll since mid-April has put them in the lead, so I was wondering when are they likely to collapse? Any ideas?
Given the state of the political climate everywhere at the moment, Christ only knows what it’ll look like in 4 years time.
Tommy Robinson might be 20 points ahead in the polls? Rylan Clark might be the PM, leading a cabinet made up entirely of former Radio 2 DJ’s? We might all be wandering around a post-apocalyptic wasteland beating each other to death for the last tin of spam? HS2 might have made it north of Watford? Who knows? 🤷♂️