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These days especially. Monumental things, longer and longer, swaying about, overtaking me at 70-odd.
Some do have four wheels admittedly, but they still put them all right next to each other under the middle and shit.
Look, this ones massive and only has two wheels, even with what must be a very heavy and unstable chimney.
Why not four wheels then?
It’s a pivot point for turning.
Because its essentially a trailer.
Some do have four wheels admittedly
You have a thesis and and anti-thesis, now you need a synthesis.
Reversing a four wheel caravan/trailer with an axle at each end is really difficult, as you have two pivot points to cope with. Probably be great otherwise.
Kayak, you unpatriotic bar steward!
Baden Powell conquered the world in a 2 wheeled caravan and will do so again once the UK achieves Nirvana!
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#4wheeltraitor
Because caravans are built to be light, adding another axle is probably 150kg which would put it above what most SUVs/large saloons can tow safely.
Also a twin axle caravan is very hard to manoeuvre by hand especially if you need to turn it due to tyre scrub, which means lots of people add motor movers, which is even more weight.
P.S That 'chimney' is a stabiliser that prevents yawing (sway) of the caravan...
... 😉
Can you imagine the chaos if caravan owners were suddenly unleashed on the world with drawbar steering trailers (like wot tractors use)?
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Half of them can't even reverse a single axle trailer, it would be carnage.
Setting up on uneven ground may also cause some hilarious moments issues
Nah, still think a system like that trailer up there would solve more issues than it creates. For that reason, I'm out.
Nah, still think a system like that trailer up there would solve more issues than it creates. For that reason, I’m out.
You have clearly never had to maneuver a drawbar steering trailer.
Dual axle trailers are much easier to manuver than single axles if you have loaded it right. They are slower to turn so you get a chance to correct it.
Single axle trailers tend to continue in the direction they have gone unless you draw forward again imo.
But of course it matters little when some people cannot comprehend how to reverse with a trailer. I actually fully support the licencing for trailers.
Cost.
Next question.
Cost.
Next question.
Looking at some of the outfits folks in camp grounds have and the vehicles towing them, cost is not an issue. 😉
I come from a farm, and have decades of experience reversing trailers.
In fact, i passed my bus test in a double decker with a trailer on the back.
I would not feel confident reversing a trailer with drawbar steering.
I will also point out, reversing a tractor with a trailer on the back is easier than reversing a car with a trailer/caravan, due to being higher up and having a much better view.
Most car drivers would have great difficulty manoeuvring a trailer with drawbar steering imo.
swaying about, overtaking me at 70-odd.
That's not a caravan design flaw.
Caravans are pretty stable and easy to tow if you load them right. I've put a fair bit of effort and some money into getting mine well sorted, suffice to say that a lot of people don't bother.
Also I don't think you'd be able to manoeuvre a four wheel trailer by hand, whereas with single axle it's dead east and you can slot them I to small spaces or park them accurately by hand or with a small motor.
I saw one last week in Austria. A BiMobil AX575 aka expensive Swiss behemoth.
See now, that's more like it. The majority of caravan places I've seen, you really don't need to do much manoeuvring. It's just like parking it on a drive.
As mentioned above though, I suppose most issues with them fish-tailing come from bad loading but I saw several over the weekend where the rear suspension on the car was so compressed it was like a lowered and stanced car for a youth.😊
Another set of wheels would remove that.
Wheels? Why not use some good old fashioned British ingenuity and invent the hover caravan?
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Why not add some sort of active steering and perhaps a supplementary drive system?
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Murray
Why not add some sort of active steering and perhaps a supplementary drive system?
It's a great idea but it'll never catch on... 🙂
Slap a VW badge on it and idiots will pay way over the odds for it!
Molgrips is right...its a problem of driver skill and judgement...or rather lack of it. The boys back in the '60's who used to rally cars towing caravans seemed to have no issues hustling them at speed.
Molgrips is right…its a problem of driver skill and judgement
Or....training.
This video taught me a thing or two after a bit of a moment towing a car trailer a short distance (off of a rally stage, not on the road);
There is still a 60mph limit when towing caravans in the UK right???
Just checking..
I once closed the M56 eastbound (2 lane section) with my very poor trailer driving technique, found a new job the following week, not for me.
There is still a 60mph limit when towing caravans in the UK right???
on motorways. 50mph anywhere else with a National Speed Limit.
Setting up on uneven ground may also cause some hilarious moments issues
Although if they were also fitted with hydrogas suspension that auto-levelled that would be cool.
Fifth wheelers are probably the best solution but require a specific type of tow vehicle.
Because roads have corners and bends. Next question?
What's the difference between a corner and a bend?
Monumental things, longer and longer, swaying about, overtaking me at 70-odd.
I've witnessed caravans fishtailing at 70mph and pulling the cars towing them 360 degrees before exploding into matchwood. Not pretty.
I think the legal limit for towing a caravan is 56mph. Can't think why.
I think the legal limit for towing a caravan is 56mph. Can’t think why.
No that's hgv.
I think the legal limit for towing a caravan is 56mph. Can’t think why.
60 on motorways, 50 on single carriageway roads.
Fishtailing is caused by a number of things - not enough nose-weight i.e. poorly loaded caravan; tyres too soft; also not helped by having a rear washroom and leaving the toilet full of water and/or sewage.
My van needs 64psi in its tyres which is the max on the reinforced commercial tyres. I've got a large plastic tote box full of all the sundry bits and pieces like electrical cables and wheel chocks, and I can move this around to get the balance right. However since fitting a spare wheel under the rear and keeping a second gas bottle up front things are nicely balanced, and I've got air spring assisters on the car which helps keep it level. It's really pretty good now.
What’s the difference between a corner and a bend?
A bend is a section of road that curves.
and a corner is a section of road that bends?
RE: trailer years and competence.
Don't forget that anyone who passed their test before 1997ish, so most over 40's who partake in caravanning, haven't had to have any extra training whatsoever to tow these things. When the trailer test was first mooted the Caravan Club strongly campaigned against it as they could see their numbers dwindling as eligible towers died off. It's the reason you can tow a small trailer up to 750kg on a normal license. So the vast majority of caravanners have never done any formal training about speed limits, safe driving methods, loading correctly or reversing skills. There is nothing inherently wrong with a single axle caravan, a lot of issues are caused by user errors, particularly poor loading.
I’ve witnessed caravans fishtailing at 70mph and pulling the cars towing them 360 degrees before exploding into matchwood. Not pretty.
A34 northbound near Didcot last night.
Ford mondeo (whats left of it, facing South) plus former 2 bed detached bungalow on wheels sufficiently battered that i couldnt tell if it was upside down or not whilst driving past southbound.
Caravans are an extreme case for towing, they're big but quite light and the cog isnt all that low.
Compared to most stuff youd put on a trailer which tends to have a lower cog, higher density (lower moments of inertia) and less windage.
I dont think licencing is the problem, it's caravans. Towing something small and heavy like a boat or trailer full of waste is easy, and reversing with it is just a matter of practice. Caravans on the other hand are just big. And the bigger they are the more likely they are to crash.
On the upside, i cant see many people bothering to do their towing licence just to tow a larger caravan so once the current owners are gone there'll be a lot less on the road.
We have reached Peak STW arguing over corners and bends.
I’ve witnessed caravans fishtailing at 70mph and pulling the cars towing them 360 degrees before exploding into matchwood attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
No that’s hgv
Only in Scotland. It's been 60mph in England & Wales for a few years now on DC and motorways.
dont think licencing is the problem, it’s caravans. Towing something small and heavy like a boat or trailer full of waste is easy, and reversing with it is just a matter of practice. Caravans on the other hand are just big. And the bigger they are the more likely they are to crash.
It's as easy to have a badly loaded small trailer of waste bouncing about but the car can mask the drivers obliviousness to it. There's not enough momentum or windage to bother the car.
Then there's the what you do when you notice it's wobbling....instinct reactions is what gets people into jackknife situations.
What’s the difference between a corner and a bend?
Do you know the difference between a square and a circle? Same idea.
Don’t forget that anyone who passed their test before 1997ish, so most over 40’s who partake in caravanning, haven’t had to have any extra training whatsoever to tow these things.
You can still tow without training if you aren't over 3.5t. I think this is a bad thing despite benefitting from it.
I dont think licencing is the problem, it’s caravans. Towing something small and heavy like a boat or trailer full of waste is easy, and reversing with it is just a matter of practice. Caravans on the other hand are just big. And the bigger they are the more likely they are to crash.
Still don't think so. Towing caravans is easy if you load it right. You just drive. Manoevring is no different to a boat or any other trailer, and tends not to be fatal if you do it wrong. Just have another go.
I guarantee that almost all the crashes you see are due to poor loading, tyres too old and/or too soft, or idiotic behaviour from drivers. And those things can get you into trouble whatever you are driving. I've seen plenty of crashed cars, vans and flipped over HGVs. But every time someone sees a crashed carvan it's 'oh caravans are crap'.
Because roads have corners and bends. Next question?
So you're saying that a caravan with a double axle, front axle pivoting, would take a significantly different path around a corner than a caravan with a single axle?
Can't see as it'd make any difference unless the corner was very tight. If you unhitch the caravan and are manoeuvring it by hand then maybe it would, but towing, the caravan follows pretty much the same path as the car.
It’s as easy to have a badly loaded small trailer of waste bouncing about but the car can mask the drivers obliviousness to it. There’s not enough momentum or windage to bother the car.
The point I was making was however haphazardly i load my trailer it will always be pretty low to the ground with minimal windage. There's little requirement for additional training because its difficult to load it badly enough to cause a problem. A caravan loaded with a similar level of carelessness ends up upside down closing the motorway.
A 6.6m long caravan has a higher 'sail area to displacement ratio' than the average sailing boat*!
*sails, not including hull vs the side on area of a 6.6x2.5m rectangle weighing 1200kg or thereabout. Flat sides do not generate power like anaerofoil etc etc, this point is illustrative and doesnt stand up to pedantry.
Because then they would be a van and useful.
Because then they would be a van and useful.
We have a winner.
I dont think licencing is the problem, it’s caravans. Towing something small and heavy like a boat or trailer full of waste is easy
LOL You've clearly never towed many different types of boats before.
A34 northbound near Didcot last night.
I saw that too, right mess.
Fifth wheelers are probably the best solution but require a specific type of tow vehicle.
Is that right?
I think you have just demonstrated that a specific type of tow vehicle is required.
What’s the difference between a corner and a bend?
About 50mph 😉
No-one has yet mentioned the benefits of a single axle for levelling have they?
Yes.
LOL You’ve clearly never towed many different types of boats before.
Nope, but I stand by my point that boats tend to be a lot smaller and more compact than caravans.
How often don you see a boat upside down on the motorway?
The difficulty comes in as:
Single axles cant be turned virtually on the spot(like a London taxi-turning circle less then 5 feet( but put all the load on 2 wheels)
Double axles more stable but tyre scrubbing and hesitance to micro adjust as the axles fight each other plus dont naturally follow..
Axle at each end.. MASSIVE TURNING CIRCLE and harder to manoeuvre..but more stable plus you can do 4 wheels on rear axle 2 on front etc..
Fifth wheel...well its specialist but harder to flip as it has to pull over 3 axles(yes 3 !!!! I do know this for a fact)
I'm used to moving big objects under tow and different designs different problems..but once you know how it's easy (imagine a car with its wheels on casters...like an ice hockey puck..that teaches you a lot about trailing axles and passive steering that goes on with axle arrangements..
NO ONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG ..its just different ideas of safe and controllable..
Did my B&E license to tow a bigger caravan last year.
I learnt nothing. Experience is everything.
For me it's all about how I load the caravan. My current caravan has no nose weight. Very rear heavy. Need to put everything up the front end otherwise it's very unstable at 50mph.
How often don you see a boat upside down on the motorway?
how often do you see one the right way up?
Unless we know the accidents/100,000 miles driven for caravan v boat towing it's a meaningless observation.
No interest in owning a conventional caravan or motorhome, but have just spent a few minutes researching fifth wheel vans on the web 😂 If I had the cash spare I'd defo get one (plus a Merc X series to pull it) I'm guessing you could have a lot of 5-star breaks though for that combo.
I’ve witnessed caravans fishtailing at 70mph and pulling the cars towing them 360 degrees before exploding into matchwood attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
Caravans are built as well as we can make them. But not to reverse.
Nope, but I stand by my point that boats tend to be a lot smaller and more compact than caravans.
The week after I passed my test I was asked to transport our "dinghy" to a race event.
I have towed large 3 axle 3.5T livestock trailers with a tractor and pick up, I regularly drive our smaller 2 axle livestock trailer with a small 4x4. I prefer 2 or 3 axle trailers to a single axle one which is a lot more twitchy.
We recently got a single axle caravan and it's very different. As people have said above the CoG is much higher, it is much more sensitive to side gusts and as it's a lot harder to see around and a lot longer than even a 3.5T livestock trailer it's a lot more awkward.
I was quite disappointed when I tried towing with the E class despite being a heavier and more powerful car and have gone back to towing with the freelander which is just better suited to towing.
Ive seen first hand the trauma and tears inflicted on class 1 HGV drivers when faced with an A frame trailer, can you imagine the strain that would put on Jonathons marriage as he in a car with 2.1 kids his board wife and 3 pugs try to get that to Scarbados on a bank holiday weekend on the A64 .. the pain as he or she rips the bumper off after 31 failed attempts to stick it on the hard standing due to the weight of it,only to find out they have forgot the hook up lead. Bliss
yeah the thought of trying to manoeuvre one of those farm trailers with a pivoting front axle fills me with dread.
I am guessing the normal rules on which way you turn to trigger the trailer turning go out of the window and you turn right to turn the trailer right rather than vice versa.
It's not evidence, simply an anecdote, but I can say I've never been held up by a crashed caravan; whereas I was once held up by a crashed boat for four ****ing hours on the M6 on my way to a Polaris in the lakes. After work on a Friday night, having already driven 4 hours, and with a shitload of riding to do the next day.
I don't fancy reversing one back down a singletrack road to the last passing-place after coming up against someone who doesn't know how to reverse their Ford fiesta and is sat in the middle of the road avoiding eye contact.
but I can say I’ve never been held up by a crashed caravan
I have, or at least the caravan was partly responsible. On my way home on the M5 from picking up a car in Cornwall, approaching Taunton, my team leader, a couple of miles in front phoned me and asked where I was, and if possible to get off the motorway as soon as possible. As he was saying that I came over a slight rise to see brake lights coming on in front. I was about a mile short of the Taunton turn-off! What should have been a two and a bit hour drive took five hours, because Taunton became totally jammed, due to a car crash next to the Taunton Dean services heading North, and a car and caravan going sideways across all three southbound lanes near Wellington, so traffic from both sides was trying to squeeze through Taunton.
I’ve also been very close to being taken off the road by a poorly loaded ‘van coming towards me as I was heading home from Salisbury many years ago. It was on a stretch o road with high banks and beech trees either side, and the car and ‘van were coming uphill when the ‘van started to snake violently right in front of me. I had nowhere to go, I had barely time to touch the brakes, it was chance the ‘van swerved away just as we came level.
One of the most panic-inducing moments I’ve had in forty-odd years of driving, my heart rate didn’t drop for some time.
I'm going to buck the trend and say I'd love to have a go at reversing a drawbar front trailer, but then I'm a bit weird in that I'll sometimes reverse blindside (the hard side in a van/truck) just to keep my eye in for when you need it. The easy option isn't always an option. You'll be glad when you are trapped in a road closure or accident and can turn/jackknife a 12 metre camper and horse trailer around in a 3 point turn whilst most of the cars are making a mess of it 🙂
Last time I saw a snake it was a driving instructor nailing his 4x4 off a roundabout with a horsebox (all stickered up with his driver training). He was hogging the outside lane ahead so someone nipped up the inside and caught him unawares, he corrected slightly and got a bit of a high speed wobble on, and then was forced to brake hard as both lanes were queuing for the next roundabout. I was too far back for any hilarious dash cam footage to put on his facebook page but he got pretty out of shape trying to slow down, ended up wobbling down the middle of both lanes and everyone suddenly gave him a lot of space...must have been humiliating as he queued towards the roundabout 🙂
It's never bothered me towing a caravan. You just need to think and observe a bit more, about your width and length. Other than that it just seems to follow me everywhere funnily enough. I am a bit twitchy in high winds though and it has caused me to slow down, when I can see the van lurching off to one side when a strong gust hits. Reversing has never been a problem for me either as long as you set yourself up well before starting the reverse and have a feel for it.
I have to say. One of my proudest moments. Getting done for speeding with the van on the back. I always like to counter peoples arguments about slow caravans with that story.