Unless – maybe it really isn’t as dreadful as people think it is.
We will only be able to see the effect in hindsight, and we will never know if some other option would have been better. So we have to do what we can to keep ourselves safe - which basically means staying away from other people as much as possible, and maybe considering FFP3 masks.
Nothing whatsoever about the ERG in their new guise in the quote or context.
It’s not just the MPs in the CRG, or whatever it’s called though, is it? Don’t forget the Daily Mail and Telegraph column writers and editors, amongst others.
Yeah, OK. Interpretation, I'll accept your version since you wrote it and know what you intended.
So still we're back to better to be inside influencing than resigning out of principle, or standing up to the Cabinet / PM and absolutely decrying this policy. Even if that leaves you intrinsically linked to the thousands of extra deaths that this is potentially going to cause.
OK, I'm taking a time out, I'm fed up with the lack of willingness to consider a different viewpoint.
Particularly bearing in mind that I absolutely think it is a shit idea / policy, but that doesn't stop me trying to understand why it might not be. Which some seem unwilling to accept, just keep piling in.
Outside the “clear message” bubble… mask wearing is over. Other half has just got back from a school performance by her old year group where not a single parent in attendance was wearing a mask. Why would they? For weeks now they’ve been told you won’t need to from this week. Some stronger wording delivered by scientists they’ve never heard at 5pm on the BBC news channel, while they’re still out at work, is never going to cut though.
Curious why the head teacher would allow it to go on with an audience or why they didn't request that those attending wore masks. Well within their mandate. You could say they'd be sticking their neck out but they've a duty of care both to their parents and staff. Would love to hear the conversation with PHE if it transpires to be a big spreader event.
theotherjonv
I understand your point completely. Its just I believe it to be wrong and all the medical and scientific consensus thinks it wrong. Not to reduce restrictions - thats a reasonable political decision ( but I think that wrong as well) but to remove all restrictions including making mask wearing unenforceable is just wrong
but that doesn’t stop me trying to understand why it might not be
Look at the data, look at what the medical bods and the sciency types say and make your own mind up. When the overwhelming weight of evidence is one way and one way only then its pretty clear.
Curious why the head teacher would allow it to go on with an audience or why they didn’t request that those attending wore masks.
Because they have no real way of enforcing it and want to avoid a huge row?
If the three scientists involved resigned en masse and held their own press conference pointing out the flaws in the UK Govts actions it would generate more press attention than some words at yet another Boris wafflethon.
So, they're either complicit in the unnecessary deaths of thousands of UK citizens or they know that the additional benefits of masks etc are so minimal as to not be a concern.
There are four countries in the UK. What are the other three Govts doing? What different scientific advice are they listening to?
Because they have no real way of enforcing it and want to avoid a huge row?
See any public indoor event this summer. If you choose to leave it up to individuals and organisations, the path of least resistance is to request masks are worn but do absolutely nothing if people choose not to. What’s the alternative? Ask them to leave? In the situation at the school this afternoon, do you ask all the parents to leave? Are the heated debates that follow a greater risk than just accepting the choices the parents have made? I am inclined to “blame” the head for this occasion, as they are responsible for that event in their building… but, ultimately, the buck being passed to him by government at this stage of a rising wave of infections is not on.
If the three scientists involved resigned en masse and held their own press conference pointing out the flaws in the UK Govts actions it would generate more press attention than some words at yet another Boris wafflethon.
Its a one time shot tho. Knowing when to pull the trigger is a tricky one as is deciding if that one shot will change policy more than staying inside pushing for some sense over a longer period of time
Personally I think this is the time they should have pulled the trigger
What different scientific advice are they listening to?
Pretty similar i would say and making different political decisions on actions to take
the scientists lay out the facts and advise, the politicians make political decisions based ( one would hope) upon that
Look at the data, look at what the medical bods and the sciency types say and make your own mind up. When the overwhelming weight of evidence is one way and one way only then its pretty clear.
Sometimes consensus is actually wrong.
If it's an internet loon holding out against consensus, it's one thing but these are not internet loons and are letting it happen on their watch. Doesn't it make you inquisitive, at least? All I still hear is that the only reason they're allowing it is because better to be on the inside than creating a fuss on the outside.
If you can't influence over something as basic and obvious as this seems to be, what can you influence?
Its a one time shot tho. Knowing when to pull the trigger is a tricky one as is deciding if that one shot will change policy more than staying inside pushing for some sense over a longer period of time
Personally I think this is the time they should have pulled the trigger
+1
If you can’t influence over something as basic and obvious as this seems to be, what can you influence?
I suspect without thier influence there would not have even been the strong advice to wear a mask and also there would not have been the covid passports for crowded indoor venues
i suspect ( But we cannot know) that without them pushing this hard it would have been even more of a shitshow.
Personally I think this is the time they should have pulled the trigger
They didn't have to do away with masks & distancing
I know it would have made nightclubs untenable, but with the younger age groups still largely unvaccinated it seems dates not data driven
I'm really hoping I last another 30 years when the government papers for the pandemic years get released, should settle these arguments once and for all.
It'll all come out in the inquiry that we've been promised, surely?
It’ll all come out in the inquiry that we’ve been promised, surely?
in 2035 if ever 🙂
They didn’t have to do away with masks & distancing
I know it would have made nightclubs untenable, but with the younger age groups still largely unvaccinated it seems dates not data driven
correct - But did the 3 wise men manage to put any realism into the latest announcements? I am sure they fought hard for sensible measure and this was the best they could get
IMO this is the point they should have stopped trying to mitigate johnsons nonsense and resigned and gone for the press conference to say what a numpty Johnson is being
Well the numbers over the next three months will vindicate someones view.
There are now some projections (not worst case) indicating 500+ deaths a day by October and the NHS back in trouble.
We all sit here in certain age groups with double jabs in place yet Delta is still killing us, hospitilising us, giving us long covid and we create the perfect environment to develop the next variant.
I recognise the plight of business and i have clients who have suffered greatly but no one brings up the "this may no longer be a viable part of our economy" discussion. Like the high street (crap comparison) we may have to shift to a huge adjustment in how we run our lives? Living with Covid doesn't just mean licking everyone's face and cracking on, we maybe have to surrender stuff we are used to doing/having.
Boris and his cabal have no answers, no way out, vaccines have not been a silver bullet... the alternatives are not politically viable so we end up with an epidemiological charge of the Light Brigade. This was inevitable and hence the three blokes lack of input.
Johnson and co have a plan?
Border officials are no longer required to make basic Covid checks on people arriving in England from green and amber list countries, according to leaked instructions that have prompted claims that the government is turning a blind eye to the risk of importing Covid cases.
So i have managed to get covid, despite being double vaccinated.
Was at down at centre parcs at the weekend and masks and things like social distancing were not being adhered to anything like they should have indoors. I was being as safe as i could but obviously not safe enough.
Have blurry vision which i havent seen listed as a symptom, anyone else had this?
Hoping batfink pops in yo give us some perspective on this
BBC News - Covid: Anger as half of Australians in lockdown again
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-57911032
Is Delta too transmissible for lockdowns to work, or are people being lax and ignoring rules? I suspect it's a combination of both.
I'm pessimistic but not quite as doom mongering as some on here. Only time will tell how many deaths and serious complications Covid will produce. We haven't banned alcohol or tobacco and we live with a surprisingly high number of deaths from them, tragic though that us at an individual level.
It would obviously help if we had consistent and clear public health measures from the top, but the will if the people and all that.
There seems to be quite a few people (I think 5?) on this forum becoming positive while double jabbed. Is delta evading vaccines more than originally thought?
Official stats suggest oxford/astrazenica is only 70 to 85 percent effective against contracting it.
30% is a big margin.
It does seem to be. Whether it's just that we are hearing about the odd case or if it's a real issue I don't know, we need to see numbers for the different variants against vaccinated cases to judge. I just hope it's not a precursor to a different variant being even better at avoiding the vaccine and still being deadly.
Vaccines won't necessarily stop you being infected and passing it on (although evidence that it reduces the chance of both), hence why the folks that think because they've been vaccinated they're somehow immune are dangerous to themselves and others.
The unknown of course being how ill they become vs how ill they'd have been if they hadn't been jabbed. Quite a lot less, if the case -> death rate multiplier is used as the measure, albeit the demographic is different too.
Meanwhile with all this going on - today’s papers, with BBC news joining in…. “Look, brown people!”.
I despair.
So i have managed to get covid, despite being double vaccinated.
I have a 2nd meeting tomorrow about a potential and significant new job opportunity, and despite it being a 1-2-1 at an outside venue I am shitting myself about it.
Interesting you mention eyesight, I definitely had issue while I was worse over the weekend. Watching TV became quite annoying. I'd not really heard of it as a symptom, but it's gone now I'm better.
Vaccinated people still get it, that's not news and was always expected, the vaccines do work, they significantly reduce the severity and reduce the chances of you catching and passing it on. They are a success story. The issue is the givernment has removed the controls before sufficient people have been vaccinated, ie the over 12s. They also dug themselves another hole by saying this is due to clinical considerations and weighing up individual risk vs benefit when in reality it's about lack of supply. This will just make it harder when they have to U turn and will only encourage the anti Vax brigade to not get their kids immunized for other things.
Kryton, I really think you need to calm down a bit or it'll be the anxiety that will get you rather than Covid. Outside, 1 to 1, risk is pretty small if you keep a reasonable distance. Probably less than gojng shopping and definitely led than an indoor meal somewhere.
Back in lockdown by 30th September latest.
The issue is the givernment has removed the controls before sufficient people have been vaccinated, ie the over 12s. They also dug themselves another hole by saying this is due to clinical considerations and weighing up individual risk vs benefit when in reality it’s about lack of supply.
This does seem to be the unfolding story… (TiReD told us so long ago)… let’s see what the media are reporting… oh… the entirely predictable desperate immigrants angle to distract us.
Back in lockdown by 30th September latest.
Unlikely - little political desire, ruinous to the economy & even less acceptable to the country as a whole.
However, I do see a return to some restrictions come winter.
Official stats suggest oxford/astrazenica is only 70 to 85 percent effective against contracting it.
I’ll take that gladly, considering WHO were happy to accept 60% efficacy.
The issue is the givernment has removed the controls before sufficient people have been vaccinated
This.
Boris loves a soundbite & was wedded to ‘Freedom Fing Day’…
A few more months of some fairly benign restrictions could have made all the difference. Winter could be uncomfortable with restrictions returning - but not a full lockdown.
mrlebowski
We never had a proper lockdown but without serious measures then the death toll will be frightening and hospitals will run out of space and staff. I agree the politicians don't want restrictions but polling suggest the majority of the public do
polling suggest the majority of the public do
Depending on which papers you read - the more RW ones it appear suggest pro opening , the more LW otherwise. No clear consensus I thought but happy to be proved wrong..
I have a 2nd meeting tomorrow about a potential and significant new job opportunity, and despite it being a 1-2-1 at an outside venue I am shitting myself about it.
Its scary times dude thats for sure but you just gotta live your life as best you can. This isn't going away so somehow we all need to find a way to live with this thing. Covid will be a thing for the next few years at least.
My partner and I put our life on hold for over a year (wedding/family plans) but you can't do it gotta keep on keeping on. I feel 100% better to be back playing basketball, riding my bike with more people and being able to travel. Look after yourself your mental health is super important in a time like this.
Official stats suggest oxford/astrazenica is only 70 to 85 percent effective against contracting it.
30% is a big margin
Yup. Officially Covid positive. Me and Mrs Fazzini are both AZ double jabbed. Youngest one, 13, also positive. Oldest one, 17, negative so far.
I'm asthmatic and whilst it deffo feels like the flu, with complete loss off taste and smell, my peak flow is OK at the moment. Chest still feels like someone has stuck a hot iron inside but breathlessness not too bad so far. I'm one day in to symptoms.
I agree the politicians don’t want restrictions but polling suggest the majority of the public do
I'm amazed by the results of this poll which suggests that a significant minority want quite heavy handed restrictions forever, including 19% in favour of a permanent 10pm curfew against leaving your home without "good reason":
I’m amazed by the results of this poll which suggests that a significant minority want quite heavy handed restrictions forever, including 19% in favour of a permanent 10pm curfew against leaving your home without “good reason”:
I shall read that 👍
Depending on which papers you read – the more RW ones it appear suggest pro opening , the more LW otherwise. No clear consensus I thought but happy to be proved wrong..
Ignoring the press, talking to most normal people and businesses and nearly everyone intends to, or has no problem with, restrictions like mask wearing and social distancing continuing (mostly with a rider of adequate support for businesses still unable to operate)
That survey looks like it will be an interesting read though.
With one exception, every business I speak to or follow have said they would like their staff and customers to keep wearing a mask and distancing as many simply couldn't stay open if staff got ill or had to isolate. It's in their, and their customers best interests.
The one cafe who have announced they are going mask free will not be getting my business in the foreseeable future.
The sudden attention on immigration and paying France to do more is a blatant distraction from Covid/Cummings/NI issues
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MoreCashThanDash
Full MemberHoping batfink pops in yo give us some perspective on this
BBC News – Covid: Anger as half of Australians in lockdown again
G’day.
No change here really - numbers (in nsw) a bit worse today, but not spiralling out of control (yet), but people are freaking -out because of the lockdown.
The article has been picked up by the bbc after Scott Morrison (“scotty from marketing” as he is known - our PM) held a rare press conference to try to defend his federal governments management of the vaccine rollout (#strollout). It didn’t go well.
People here have FINALLY realised that the only way out of this is vaccination, and then looked at our vaccination rate, and are (rightly) outraged. The government seem to have finally got their head out of their arse and realised that they need to address people’s safety concerns about the AZ vaccine - as that’s what’s holding us up: we have plenty of it, but the over 60s don’t want it (everyone else is given Pfizer by default - which is also in short supply, hence the reluctance to give it to the over 60s).
So: yeah, nah.
Thanks for that cobber
Any news on transmission routes from your T&T reports- is it identifiable events/locations or just a slow burn via households?
@stevemuzzy & @kongman28 re eyesight; My 10 year old daughter has covid now, so we're in our 10 day isolation period.
Anyway, when she was poorly on Sunday she said she couldn't see properly. Also, when I had the call from Test and Trace 'pain in the eyes' was IIRC 4th on the list of symptoms he asked about.
