[Closed] What are we to make of the UKIP surge?

Loving all the lefty knicker twisting

So what is the 'Lefty' alternative?

UKIP aren't an alternative, they are more of the same. Their funders and political elites are all cut from the same cloth as the old etonian Tories. They're just a nastier variant of them.

So what is the 'Lefty' alternative?

To UKIP? The Tories.

Which bits don't you like?

I haven't read all of the above. There's a lot to take in. I'll go back and plough through it. But I am heading for 65, so I'm qualified to say this. A lot of UKIP voters are probably worried about the pensions they've been contributing to all their working lives.

No, mine isn't state, it's earned, at home and abroad.

So remind me please: just when do you plan to take away my vote?

(edit) Jenny Jones.

Well I suspect UKIP members might view me as pro EU!

acracer - UKIP members would consider Genghis Khan as pro-EU.

Or Margaret Thatcher, I guess.

Ah, what the heck. I don't like political stuff, mainly because it's just plain divisive and ultimately a personal thing, but here we go....

UKIP are a flash in the pan, what the media love at the moment have highlighted what [b]may[/b] be worthy of consideration, but this will now become a strategic game between special advisers on the big 2 and the media, resulting in some new papers/polls and a couple of new wordy policies will be introduced that will ultimately make no difference...possibly.

UKIP are no different to any other political establishment in this country in the slightest, it's disproportionately managed and sold through marketing.

The words they convey may be 'new & fresh', but the patronising strategy remains the same: us public are thick and we can be influenced by sound-bites and images. For every time one of Cameron's people vomits the term "hard working people", Farage is there drinking a pint with his white middle aged mates.

I don't wish this to be true, but I cannot abide the general political establishment due to nothing other than gut instinct triggered by the way in which these people talk. I mean, think of someone you respect - it could be for whatever reason, but the chances are it is because they are informed, articulate and convey a cause which if you don't already relate to, you can do because of their conviction, genuine good meaning and applied logic which means it is achievable.

I've never witnessed one of those attributes from a politician in my relevant years.

Flame away 😀

EDIT: I haven't read the previous pages, so apologies if this point made already.

I'm of the opinion that policies are generated by civil service spreadsheet monkeys, polished through focus groups and spat out via the Commons with no regard to "left" or "right" - just a "hey we're doing it this way - it's better than the last guys" attitude.

This being the case I think I can wield more influence via online petitions than via the ballot box. If all MP's were replaced with their equivalents from Madame Tussards - it would just make it quieter and cheaper.

Well there isn't any evidence that UKIP are anything other than a protest party. And "fruitcakes and closet racists" is imo a very apt description of UKIP candidates/membership.

+1

Voting for an anti-EU party at council elections is pretty stupid as local Councillors have absolutely no say in the UK's EU membership!

A lot of UKIP voters are probably worried about the pensions they've been contributing to all their working lives

acracer - UKIP members would consider Genghis Khan as pro-EU.

Or Margaret Thatcher, I guess.

Pensions seem yet another reason for a middle class protest vote, don't you think? Personally I'd like to leave stuff to my family. Let's see: house price falling, shares (the few I have) fallen, pension shrunken, savings eroding. I expect it's all my fault.

Yeah and going even more free-market is going to help you how oldgit? How are flat rate taxes going to effect your children and help them be secure in old age? Or are they going to earn enough so they don't care?

Farage is an ex banker, do you really think he wants to help you? His kind were the types that got us into this mess in the first place.

house price falling, shares (the few I have) fallen, pension shrunken, savings eroding. I expect it's all my fault.

Are you suggesting that's all the government's fault? Though I'm confused by the shares at least - mine seem to be doing quite well at the moment (yes I am an evil capitalist who owns shares and share derivatives).

Are you suggesting that's all the government's fault?

The hilarious thing is that ukip policies would do more to increase the gap between the upper and middle classes.

The Pitchfork Party , appeals to the worst in people, the petty bourgeois finds much to nod his/her head to, a protest against the standard pro capitalist/big business urgings of the reformist parties that have traditionallly held sway for the last century or so.

The fact that they are 'marketed' as different will gather a few more people who are 'sick' of the mainstream nonsense.

That they are more establishment than virtually any other party is a reflection on how politricks is conducted in this part of the world, the 'management' of information is one specialsim the british ruling class have mastered--a compliant media--dressed up as 'independant'.

Rudebwoy, absolutely spot on, scary to find something you've posted that I'm fully in agreement with, do we have UKIP to blame / thank?

To go back to the OP's original question, I think it shows that we need a radical rethink of our education system and why politics and government should be taught as a compulsory subject, linked to a better history curriculum than my two were being taught.

to go back to the OP's original question, I think it shows that we need a radical rethink of our education system and why politics and government should be taught as a compulsory subject, linked to a better history curriculum than my two were being taught.

I think you're trying to convince yourself that they're the party of the stupid and ill-educated, and that if only they'd been [s]indocitrinated with[/s]taught proper [s]socialist[/s] values at school they'd all been happily voting for the [s]SWP[/s] LibDems.

It's that disconnect that is part of the reason for UKIP's popularity among people who feel abandoned by the ruling elite.

Pensions seem yet another reason for a middle class protest vote, don't you think? Personally I'd like to leave stuff to my family. Let's see: house price falling, shares (the few I have) fallen, pension shrunken, savings eroding. I expect it's all my fault.

And the EU has what bearing on this exactly?
I think they [pensioners]should spend their time worrying about the fact it will be far worse for their grandkids than it was for them

It's that disconnect that is part of the reason for UKIP's popularity among people who feel abandoned by the ruling elite

Pensions seem yet another reason for a middle class protest vote, don't you think? Personally I'd like to leave stuff to my family. Let's see: house price falling, shares (the few I have) fallen, pension shrunken, savings eroding. I expect it's all my fault.

How about leaving them a legacy of affordable housing, reasonable working hours without being pressured into working an extra 20 hours just to keep a job, and generally better opportunities in work and life?

When I eventually gain my inheritance, It won't be worth the stress, the redundancies, the unemployment and the financial worries of the 25 (and counting) years since I left school, caused by my parents generation taking out more than they put in.

It's that disconnect that is part of the reason for UKIP's popularity among people who feel abandoned by the ruling elite.

hahaha. don't kid yourself.

1)ukip are popular because they act as a political agony aunt for people who are annoyed about stuff. ' dear nigel, i really hate these potholes/cyclists/bulgarians blah,blah bigotty blah. '

2)we've been ruled by an aristocratic elite since the dawn of time and you really think that it's only now that people feel a 'disconnect' ?

times are hard, extreme parties do well shocker!
look at history

A lot of UKIP voters are probably worried about the pensions they've been contributing to all their working lives.

well at least you'll get a pension, my generation (i'm 40) will be lucky to see a bean, despite the thousands I've paid in.

I really worry about my kids future too, unaffordable housing, working conditions being eroded etc etc

......part of the reason for their popularity among people who feel abandoned by the ruling elite.

Why do people maintain this claim that UKIP support is primarily within a downtrodden proletariat which is determined to give the ruling elite a bloody nose ?

I'm sure that it's the narrative which UKIP would like people to believe, but all the evidence I see is that a UKIP voter is more likely to be a Daily Telegraph reader than a Sun reader, in other words part of the ruling elite.

There is a reason why UKIP did very well** deep in the Tory heartlands at the expense of the Tory Party, think about it.

[img] [/img]

** very well means coming third in a very low turnout btw.

I stayed up to watch the 97 election results coming in. It was something new to me. The Tories got hammered. I've wondered ever since what the real causes were, and would any political party admit if they knew. I think some of it was a result of Aitken, Hamilton and others, and of Mrs T's remoteness once settled into power. It sparked an interest.

And was it David Mellor who got a bit excited live on TV?

I wasn't there, but there was a landslide election in 45 which kicked out Churchill. I'll bet the army vote was significant. They knew they had been lied to, and they wanted to come home to decent jobs. With the army the largest of the forces, just about everyone knew a soldier.

Some of the economic arguments go right over my head. So what, even if I don't understand them I still have a vote. And these days it's mostly a protest vote. I'd like a 'none of the above' option.

And with the two and a bit parties converging on the centre ground, there are a lot of protest votes around.

The two and a bit parties are NOT converging on the centre ground - and this "protest vote" is going to see them all taking a step to the right.

very well means coming third in a very low turnout btw.

Second in terms of percentage of popular vote in Cambridgeshire. Third, just, behind the LibDems in terms of seats. Took seats from both Conservatives and LibDems.

I'm sure that it's the narrative which UKIP would like people to believe, but all the evidence I see is that a UKIP voter is more likely to be a Daily Telegraph reader than a Sun reader, in other words part of the ruling elite.

Radio 4 had a bit on Today (yesterday) where they went to Boston, Lincs. The people voting UKIP didn't sound like the ruling elite. They sounded like people deeply upset at a massive influx of eastern european workers prepared to worker harder for less money than them.

They also interviewed a farmer who saw no problems at all with this influx. He wasn't voting UKIP.

There was a UKIP member on the tellybox this morning from Boston in Lincolnshire, who was complaining about the influx of Portuguese agricultural workers. He then went on to complain that [i]these[/i] people were "swept aside" by incoming Polish agricultural workers. He said that we shouldn't "get him wrong" because "some of these people are hard working", but that he was now complaining about the horde of Romanians and Bulgarians who are apparently going to descend like a plague of locusts on us next year...

After complaining about foreign people, he then qualified his complaint by saying that the actual problem is that Boston is a small market town that "doesn't have the infrastructure to cope", and that was why he wanted immigration stopped.

He wasn't asked "well, instead of banning immigrants, why don't you get an infrastructure so that you can cope, then?"

Not racist at all. No no no.

If fewer landowners/farmers were paying these folk "under the radar" in order to save a bit of money they'd all be paying taxes and contributing to the welfare budget etc.

Second in terms of percentage of popular vote in Cambridgeshire. Third, just, behind the LibDems in terms of seats. Took seats from both Conservatives and LibDems.

The people voting UKIP didn't sound like the ruling elite. They sounded like people deeply upset at a massive influx of eastern european workers prepared to worker harder for less money than them.

Radio 4 had a bit on Today (yesterday) where they went to Boston, Lincs. The people voting UKIP didn't sound like the ruling elite.

So some working-class Tory voters voted UKIP last Thursday, hardly a great surprise ........ is it ?

But it's a long way from proving that UKIP appeals predominately to working-class voters. Why did they get less than half the votes that Labour got in South Shields last Thursday .... why didn't they win ? Why did they have such an abysmal result in the nationwide metropolitan borough elections 12 months ago ?

Why is no there evidence that UKIP does well in predominately working-class areas, other than obviously taking votes from the Tories in those areas ?

As I said, there is no evidence that UKIP support is primarily within a downtrodden proletariat which is determined to give the ruling elite a bloody nose.

UKIP might well make significant inroads into working-class Labour heartlands in the future, and more importantly win seats, but last Thursday didn't prove that, and to suggest that it did is clearly false imo.

I am sure Labour HQ are taking far more notice than you Ernie. To come second in a Labour fortress like S Shields suggests pretty clearly that there is working class support for UKIP. Nationally, the same support has traditionally spilt itself between Tories and Labour and this week's vote (to the extent that it matters in the greater scheme of things) shows [u]all three parties[/u] losing out.

NF himself used to describe his party as the party of "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" before seeking to widen the appeal. I think that this week has shown that he has had some success in doing so. Most political analysts point to two main groups who support UKIP:

1. Low skilled,working class, older males
2. Lower middle classes

Hence the Tories and the Labour party both got a bloody nose. UKIP's appeal has spread and the most obvious new source of votes is the socially conservative (with a little c) working people. Last Thursday did show that which is why the parties reacted in the way that they did. This week has been all about the change in the marginal voting patterns (with the obvious caveat of turnount and local elections etc).

1. Low skilled,working class, older males
2. Lower middle classes

I don't buy the Telegragh, but read it, and for the last week the letters page has been full of letters from Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells, explaining why they were voting UKIP.
I see the problem as (and it's not very PC) the ignorance of many voters, who have an idea (immigration is a bad thing) and don't listen to the facts and therefore go on believing that either Poles are here living on benefits or pinching all of 'our' jobs.

Radio 4 had a bit on Today (yesterday) where they went to Boston, Lincs. The people voting UKIP didn't sound like the ruling elite. They sounded like people deeply upset at a massive influx of eastern european workers prepared to worker harder for less money than them.

Yeah and what UKIP will do is kick them out and then get rid of the minimum wage forcing the British working class to work for even less money than the eastern europeans.

I like a hard working immigrant. The more polish builders and plumbers the better. But... if I was a plumber or a builder I suspect I'd look at it differently. To call them ignorant seems pretty, well, ignorant.

teamhurtmore - Member

Hence the Tories and the Labour party both got a bloody nose.

You're living in a complete fantasy world mate.

The fact is that last thursday the LibDems saw their share of the vote in the county council elections fall by half, the Tory share of the vote fell by a quarter, and Labour's share of the vote [u]increased.[/u]

What do you want to do, rewrite the election results, ffs ?

.

To come second in a Labour fortress like S Shields suggests pretty clearly that there is working class support for UKIP.

Yes they came second ........ you do understand that coming second means "not winning", don't you ?

Previously the Conservative Party came second in South Shields, what does that prove - that the Tories have huge support in working-class areas ?

Last thursday the Labour Party got a greater share of the votes than any other party in rural England - the Conservative heartland, and you want to claim that they got "a bloody nose".

You ought to be a spin doctor for the Tories mate.

I was using the ignorance in it's actual meaning, ie, lacking knowledge, which I think describes the people doing vox pox pieces on the TV.

I know this is only a small percentage but I think it's the typical reaction of many.

It still sounds like you're ignorant to the fact that greater competition in a market will not be seen as good by those who compete in that market.

Surely the point is that many uk workers don't compete in the market, which is why so many uk farmers employ workers from abroad.

Sure. I live in deepest Wales. The local village is mostly polish as there's a big abattoir, and they work there. I don't think any of the locals mind...

That doesn't mean that many jobs aren't being competed for. Same with services. Us affluent types are immune to it, but at the opposite end of the spectrum immigrants are a competitive force in all kinds of ways. And good for them... if they can move across continents to find work they've obviously got a competitive edge. I'm glad they're not after my job.

What ernie said to THM ,the best spin is that those working class who voted tory now vote UKIP. I dont see Labour voters leaving the labour party in droves to vote for the party of xenophobes even further to the right than the Tories. I am sure some will but not many. Tories should be most worried and are - did you you hears dave change if language this week as he sucked up ?. i also dont believe many will do this in avote that really matter like a general election and only the right wing will do this.

So, does anyone know what UKIP councillors will want to do with their new found (balance of) power?

Well we can be sure UKIP dont know so How on earth could we know what they will do- they did not even vet all the candidates

It is hard to see what use an anti imigration anti EU party with no qctual policies will achieve in local govt tbh.

Perhaps an end to support for cycling schemes? Given that cycling is [url= http://order-order.com/2013/04/26/ukip-candidate-tells-abusive-cyclists-on-your-bike/ ]stealing[/url] ?

So, does [s]anyone[/s] UKIP know what UKIP councillors will want to do with their new found (balance of) power?

is the real question

a) I'm annoyed at myself that I'm posting on a political thread again, but...

b) I've just seen BBC news summary and the guy was smoking a fag in a VT clip, something he obviously wanted to show.

Tit.