No. Sadly not wheels On fire. You’re clearly the scum of society and having the a wrong sort of holiday. You should have checked whether STW approved of your holiday plans / methods before you left home 🙄
You’re clearly the scum of society and having the a wrong sort of holiday. You should have checked whether STW approved of your holiday plans / methods before you left home
Said no one on this thread. to deny there are issues is head in the sand. To look for solutions is reasonable. to discuss this is fine
"methinks the gentleman doth protest too much"
Ah, on this occasion we’re paying £40 a night for two of us to “The Club”. I’d much rather go somewhere for a meal but at these prices we’ve nothing left. A lot of the high prices are opportunistic profiteering, it can be £25 a night for a field and a tap, they shut end of September after they’ve made their money. With imagination a community could make some money with overnight pitches for tourist camper vans/motorhomes/caravans.
night night all!
https://campra.org.uk/ 👍 I often wonder how many "experts" know what the costs are to provide and run a site are??
£15 to park overnight at the community owned aire in Findhorn. There's a basic toilet (no electricity last time I was there - so take a torch) and somewhere to dump your rubbish. I reckon that's on the limit of a fair charge but I do use it as I know it's going to the community and I'm not pissing off any locals. I usually eat/drink in the village in the evening.
I've seen £25 charges for about the same - I reckon that's taking the piss a bit.
Same campsites are becoming too expensive, though the various tarriffs can be a bit of a minefield. Sometimes it's the same cost for a solo camper as it is for a family, sometimes the charegs for each additional person look extortionate. I really don't know where the balance should be.
I often wonder how many “experts” know what the costs are to provide and run a site are??
I know that the recent lease of the Glenmore site included a substantial ongoing payment to FLS well above the cost of the ground and facilities themselves. They certainly see a profit in it 🙂
Findhorn is a great place so £15 is fair I think. Somehow I have never noticed the toilets there, I haven’t stayed but will give it a try next year. We tend to stay in the caravan on a cl at Nairn which is £40 per week when in that part of the world, I always offer more but they won’t hear of it. Wetow with a small camper so that would be great for a night and we can have an evening at the pub
Picture taken from culbin forrest by Findhorn a couple of weeks ago
The 'just use campsites' argument for not having Aires makes no sense. Its like saying 'why do we need a coffee shop when we have already got a Michelin star restaurant?'. Different product for different people, or maybe the same people but different days. My town is a perfect example of both working well - the local static caravan park has quite a nice motorhome section, seems pretty popular. But it's minimum 3 nights stay and in high season that's £120. Little indoor pool, kids play parks, 'evening entertainment', restaurant. Less than 1/4 mile away is the harbour and campers/mortohomes used to 'wild camp' for free. Locals got a bit peeved and as it's on common good land put in 10 bays for campers and banned overnights unless in the spots. I think it's a tenner a night and for that you get the code for sailing club showers. Very popular. A lot will eat in their vans but others will use the fish and chip shops, or the restaurants. Or a coffee shops. You, know like tourists. But if you are passing through you are just not going to pay for 3 nights if you don't need it or don't want the 'extras'.
The Aires model works well already almost with the caravan club certified sites which are almost the same with some of them virtually a facility free park up.
the "aires" model would seem to be the answer but a we can see from this thread some folk do not want to pay (enough) for them)
Edit - no one has said do not build Aires
Aires is a great idea. There are so few like your example though so little choice but to use sites. Not all sites are £40 a night, I stayed in a lovely one near Alton. That was £25 per night for 2 of us with full facilities on the pitch and lovely clean showers and toilets.
Edit – no one has said do not build Aires
Yes they have, at least one person up thread was arguing that local authorities shouldn't build aires and if local authorities don't do it it's not going to happen.
Sorry - must have missed that post
Convert hits the nail on the head; if communities find van parking etc to be problematic they can and should take positive action which would benefit all - and just putting up 'no overnight parking' signs isn't really that. I really like the example he cites.
Where I live in the Dales we don't really have a problem (maybe slight irritation at times); the spot that does get popular (and for good reasons; I'd stop there too) isn't in sight of anyone's house and rarely suffers from dumped rubbish etc. Some locals will moan 'have you seen that lot?' but I always respond that other than a minor temporary visual impact its a bunch of folks enjoying life and hurting no one. We are all tourists sometime eh? And plenty of locals are responsible for questionable visual impact; we may live here, and may own land, but we don't own the right to exclude everyone else 'just because'. There is a basic 'field and tap' Caravan Club site in the dale but it's not very popular. It's a nice enough spot and I doubt expensive, but I think folks in vans are attached the the idea of just stopping in a nice spot with a good view; a kind of gypsy romantic ideal. I know I do in my van. It's not the money, I just don't like the whole camp site thing.
We drove back from the Hebrides overnight last weekend, and yes there were plenty of vans parked in laybys etc - but generally they really were in the middle of nowhere. Don't sh1t in the bushes, take your rubbish away, and what harm are they doing?
I can't help but feel in many cases it's an example of folks feeling because they spent a gazillion quid on a house they are aggrieved that others can inhabit the same space for free, even temporarily. Clearly there are places it's reached genuine problem levels (I cited Arisaig earlier and stand by that) but those extreme examples can't be allowed to become a panacea for NIMBYs to use.
Another good example of community action on this is at Ulva Ferry on Mull.
The ‘just use campsites’ argument for not having Aires makes no sense. Its like saying ‘why do we need a coffee shop when we have already got a Michelin star restaurant?’. Different product for different people
Edit – no one has said do not build Aires
I have said councils shouldn't build campsites (whether or not you give them a fancy French name). They also shouldn't build coffee shops just because tourists moan about the price of coffee. If it's such a moneyspinner, local taxpayers can do it. If it's not a moneyspinner, then "people who own expensive diesel vans and want cheaper campsites" are not the top priority for council help.
. If it’s not a moneyspinner, then “people who own expensive diesel vans and want cheaper campsites” are not the top priority for council help.
Just as well that’s not what they are after. They want areas where they can park up in for a few nights, better for local businesses if they can attract them, better for locals as that van in a parking space isn’t temporarily ‘blocking’ a space and better for the visitors as they can have somewhere with basic facilities.
Driving back from Shrewsbury towards Welsh land last night I actually passed a couple of cars with roof beds on them, so perhaps this will no longer be the preserve of big white boxes.
I've got nothing against 'Aires' being setup (posh name for a cheap campsite) but as above is it really a priority when councils are struggling to provide basic amenities for health and wellbeing ?
Still looks like simple supply and demand to me, people are not prepared to pay the costs of what things are at the minute, and there just isnt the supply for places to put all these big white boxes.
I’ve got nothing against ‘Aires’ being setup (posh name for a cheap campsite) but as above is it really a priority when councils are struggling to provide basic amenities for health and wellbeing ?
Well I think we can agree on this one.
Highland Council is flat broke and have massively cut additional support needs provision in schools. They've also shut most public toilets in rural areas, those that remain being community run. I think they would really struggle to make the case for invesing widely in aires although the have done at least one.
If it does happen it's likely to be some sort of community lead thing which means they'll probably be few and far between.
is it really a priority when councils are struggling to provide basic amenities for health and wellbeing ?
There's a scheme (partially?) funded by ScotGov to improve toilet provision round the Highlands. It's not too much of a stretch to combine both requirements if that can help improve things for locals and tourists alike.
I can’t help but feel in many cases it’s an example of folks feeling because they spent a gazillion quid on a house they are aggrieved that others can inhabit the same space for free, even temporarily.
IME its not newcomers but folk who have lived there most of their lives who find the disruption difficult. Its not jealousy or envy - its frustration at the disruption to their lives
Many years ago I asked a chap running a tourist boat up in the highlands about this his answer " we are glad to see them come, and we are glad to see them go" Tourism can be very much a double edged sword as folk in tourist cities worldwide can find. Venice being a particular one and i see this as well in Edinburgh. The tourist money is a huge part of what makes it such a nice place - but sometimes the sheer numbers of tourists reaches a point where it adversely effects your life. One wee anecdote. Julie used to work from an office on the royal mile. Most of the year she would go out of the office for her lunch - walk to the shops to buy it and sit somewhere nice outside to eat it. come festival time she would find that even getting out of the office door became difficult and queues in the shops and all the folk milling about meant it took more of her lunch break to buy her lunch and find somewhere to sit to eat it
when we moved to Edinburgh 30 years ago the royal mile still had ordinary shops on it. Now its all tourist tat shops
What the answer is to this mass tourism effecting the lives of residents is I do not know. Its a worldwide issue and I have seen no real solutions
the answer to the campervan issue in Scotland is IMO twofold - carrot and stick. Facilities need to be put in place and I am happy with councils doing this so long as the prices are set as to make a profit. Then once we have a greater range of facilities in place clamp down on the roadside campers - once they no longer have the excuse that all campsites are full / too expensive / inconveniently placed
Yes but remind yourself just how much fun Edinburgh would be if it just had Edinburgh folk in it...:)
Indeed - I acknowledged that
I am probably unusual in that I enjoy the buzz of the festival and all the folk stooring about.
I did wonder when the pitchforks came out during lockdown in many highland communities whether they would ever get put away again, looks as if in some places that they haven't.
clamp down on the roadside campers
I suspect that this might be harder to do than many people think.
I am happy with councils doing this so long as the prices are set as to make a profit.
How much have the various Edinburgh councils spent on tourism (including the numerous festivals) over the years without "making a profit"?
How much has been spent on the 7 Stanes without "making a profit"?
There are occasions when investment in facilities/infrastructure has to be seen in a wider context.
During the immediate lifting of Covid restrictions there was a loosening of some planning rules to allow a few (private/community) Aires to go ahead. I wonder if that relaxation still applies, because even planning permission can be an expensive and time-consuming issue.
I did wonder when the pitchforks came out during lockdown in many highland communities whether they would ever get put away again
Pitchforks are rubbish at picking up faeces.
They want areas where they can park up in for a few nights
So..."campsites", then?
when we moved to Edinburgh 30 years ago the royal mile still had ordinary shops on it. Now its all tourist tat shops
TBF that's half a story about mass tourism and half a story about the decline of shops generally. If it were any other street, you just wouldn't have the tourist tat shops and it'd be vacant shops, discount booksellers, and charity shops. I also have no idea how it can be fixed.
Three years ago Police took action after the entrance to Glen Nevis cemetery was blocked and mourners were delayed while the drivers were found and vehicles moved.The area is clearly marked no parking.The following two weeks vehicles parked in the designated area were towed away, some by helicopter I believe.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime/police-tow-vehicles-and-charge-drivers-after-visitors-block-roads-near-scotland-beauty-spots-2936888
I would say that this strong action has been effective as the problem hasn't recurred to anything like the same extent since .
So maybe we should be welcoming those who use campsites, aires, etc and park appropriately and those who take the piss(pun intended) should know that if they're caught it's likely to cost them.
So…”campsites”, then?
A form of yes. Well done on working that out all by yourself.
In the question of the 'born and bread' locals versus the offcomers/blowins levels of tolerance, what I find (I'm a long term offcomer who works with landowners professionally) is that the new blood are more rules and regulations focussed; they tend to get excited at people infringing rules. The old blood are more pragmatic; if its sensible and not hurting anyone then fine; legal but still daft or damaging is less tolerated no matter what law is being broken or not. In a way that mirrors my view on ROW use. It used to be called common sense and respect. There are plenty of footpaths great and suitable to ride, and plenty of bridleways a bike has no place on. Guess what I do 😀
I'm conflicted on this one too. We have a very similar situation nearby at Loch Morlich. One answer is to have more car parks, but then there's a knock-on effect that the beach becomes more crowded, taking away part of the attraction (They paved paradise...) . And then when the car park is full, folk still park where they shouldn't.
In the question of the ‘born and bread’ locals versus the offcomers/blowins levels of tolerance...
So basically you think the former tend to roll with crumby behaviour on their doorstep, but if someone parks somewhere really barmy, they're toast? Sounds like they're using their loaf by not getting too wrapped up in things.
Scotroutes - there is the issue in a nutshell. Its needs to be carrot and Stick IMO. that area desperately needs somewhere for the vans to park up legally - then enforce the restrictions once you have that.
If it goes too far with the numbers of folk then what tho? I read that a section of the Amalfi coast where there are lovely little villages and the roads are narrow one section of many miles with a couple of villages has had traffic counters and barriers. Once a certain number of cars has entered the area the roads are closed. They had to do this as it was ending in total gridlock.
Once a certain number of cars has entered the area the roads are closed.
Same thing happens in national parks in USA and Australia
The main picture in the Sky News link in front of Traigh golf course has shocked me. There is a caravan club CL there which I last stayed in about five years ago and in many summer holiday weeks there I only saw the odd cyclists camping along there and one bloke in a van on a couple of nights.
Some places have really changed
Thats the issue. there is a spot I used a few times many years back. Never more than one other van. last time I went past 4 ish years ago - 20 -30 vans in a line
Those vans are parked on the verge of a singletrack road. Surely if the police wanted to be really awkward it would be a case of knock them all up at 2am and breathalyse the occupants. Am I wrong? There are actually over 200 campsite pitches within a mile of that photo, if there is no space at the campsites and you choose to park illegally then I am struggling to sympathise if they choose to get tough.
We actually had our car broken in to at that spot about ten years ago and it was a long wait for the police to arrive and that was before so many subsequent cuts.
Case study of 1 so very anecdotal.
I needed to go to South Wales for work and wanted to do The Gap ride. Turned up at about 10pm, parked my van in an fairly large, open air, pay and display car park in Brecon. Free overnight parking, then paid for parking during the day while I was doing the ride. I used the free toilet that was just nearby. Spent some money buying brekky and snacks, put the rubbish in the bin near the car park. Thought it worked rather well. No aire, just a tweak to the rules of the car park
I was at Silversands on Tuesday, dropped people off at the beach, then drove on found a legal parking spot took ten minutes to walk back and join the others. Did shopping at Spar in Arisaig.
I would think long and hard before going to Arisaig on a weekend in July or August
North Berwick weekend choc a bloc with campervans, many park right opposite the water treatment works with it's nice ripe aroma as the look over the Forth then just up the hill the wee carpark it is like some cowboy film where the all park in a circle preventing any day trippers from parking whilst they keep an eye out for the Cherokees
This is every weekend of the year
I would think long and hard before going to Arisaig on a weekend in July or August
We were there in May, hoping to go for a swim off Traigh but couldn't get parked without being a dick. We drove along to Rhue and managed to get into a space as someone was just leaving. I reckon a couple of the campsites could add to their income by allowing some day parking.
Just to bring a bit of ballance to all this doom and gloom...
I've spent most of the last 3 weeks dotting about the Highlands in my van. Mostly on NC500 roads, some day trips, some overnights, some nights in campsites, some just parking up.
Lots of vans around and some busy spots but nothing dreadful. No mess left behind anywhere I've seen and I've been looking.
There are definitely problems in some places but they're localised and the solutions are therefore local. No need for nationwide bans or similar hysteria, just deal with the problems where they occur.
North Berwick weekend choc a bloc with campervans, many park right opposite the water treatment works with it’s nice ripe aroma
TBF the smell won't be worse than what's coming from inside the van. And also tbf the local yokels are up in arms about the idea of charging for parking in summer, even though free car parking is destroying the town's major asset - a walkable vibrant high street.
I have said councils shouldn’t build campsites (whether or not you give them a fancy French name). They also shouldn’t build coffee shops just because tourists moan about the price of coffee. If it’s such a moneyspinner, local taxpayers can do it. If it’s not a moneyspinner, then “people who own expensive diesel vans and want cheaper campsites” are not the top priority for council help.
You seem to be under the misunderstanding that aires (other fancy and not fancy names available, but people know what the concept is when you use that term) need to or indeed are commonly owned by the council. Some no doubt are, but a lot are either community owned or privately owned. Certainly in rural Highland Scotland 'the council' own very little beyond the edge of the tarmac. Where the council/local government come in is granting licences and they've been notoriously tricky to get hold of. During the COVID staycation explosion they granted a bunch more temporary ones and 'pop up' campsites of the zero facility aires styles appeared for a short while.
Beyond that, yes councils do own carparks in towns obviously and could put a few bays in and monetise them......I mean the concept of paying to park is already a thing but if the solution to the problem was to enable some to legitimately park, make a bit of money from it and get a quota of what's reasonable and sustainable for the community then happy days.
Findhorn is another place that has done this successfully - two sets of public toilets have been renovated and other public works on the proceeds over the last winter.
During the COVID staycation explosion they granted a bunch more temporary ones and ‘pop up’ campsites of the zero facility aires styles appeared for a short while.
Northumberland Council has relaxed the rules on pop up campsites for the with spaces for 60 or under. Was a bit late for this season, but talking to a friend who works in planning there’s a lot of interest.
