You only have to peek at a few motorhome forums to see how tight-fisted the owners are (even the ‘rich’ ones!).
Ha, fair enough!
I guess we're also at the point where people who bought a house in 1958 for tuppence ha'penny are now leaving it to their soon-to-retire children. And fair play, if £200k dropped in my lap just as I was about to retire, I'd probably seriously consider a nice shiny motorhome too...
Everyone is keen on building aires. Does that mean tarmacing over more land so that drivers of £50k campervans can get cheap or free accommodation at the council’s expense?
I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but you're assuming they'd be cost negative to the council?
The aires I stayed on in Europe, had a barrier system like any other car park. Get a ticket on the way in, pay your £15 or so per 24hours on the way out.
On economic terms, I'm pretty sure it would be a fairly simple business case to put forward for financing.
Everyone is keen on building aires. Does that mean tarmacing over more land so that drivers of £50k campervans can get cheap or free accommodation at the council’s expense?
I agree with this concern. There are more stages to things before you just create a council run, part funded, concrete space next to a nice view.
Why not support existing sites somehow to keep costs down, encourage enreprenuers to open new low-cost and low-impact sites, then a community led and not for profit aire or as a 'last resort'...?
In comparison we had 3 weeks in the Alps a month ago for roughly the same amount and the sites were better
Not sure what the answer is but can’t see it getting better any time soon
The answer is dont buy a motorhome as there isnt the camping sites available for them would appear to be the answer ?
Or again is it that people have spent thousands of pounds and now have realised they have something that cant be used, or at least used cheaply
If I cant find a holiday cottage at a price I can afford, or there are not any left I dont just going an park up at the side of the road in my car
doesn’t matter which nation, these types of survey’s are only ever done because they want to validate what they already decided and know it will be unpopular with one segment or another.
Oh absolutely 150%
They decide what they want to do and then make up ways to make it seem that 'the public' have agreed to it. i.e. create a survey/cunsultation and then completely ignore whatever the survey results indicate - unless it actually agrees with what they want to do (which it rarely does).
Simply a box ticking exercise.
On economic terms, I’m pretty sure it would be a fairly simple business case to put forward for financing.
If the business case is so obvious, why isn't the private sector doing it already? Oh, that's right - there are already campsites that charge a non-subsidised cost and the campervan owners are all moaning because they're too tight-fisted to pay!
Councils are cut to the bone and kids at risk are being put at jeopardy because there's no money, and you want councils to get into the tourist accommodation business?
If the business case is so obvious, why isn’t the private sector doing it already? Oh, that’s right – there are already campsites that charge a non-subsidised cost and the campervan owners are all moaning because they’re too tight-fisted to pay!
+1
If the business case is so obvious, why isn’t the private sector doing it already? Oh, that’s right – there are already campsites that charge a non-subsidised cost
That depends on whether or not you think that visitors are spending money and supporting other lobs locally. How much has been spent on the 7 Stanes over the years - while they've remained free for use? The survey does ask questions specifically about spending habits. I know that when the Mrs and I were away for 5 days in Argyll recently we eat/drank out for two of those nights and made use of shops and cafes too. That's a pretty common occurrence amongst campers of all types.
Done. Got our camper last year and stayed in Scotland loads as it’s so close and lovely. Always been made welcome, but we treat the places we visit as peoples homes. Seems odd the support on here for people pitching a tent on the moors earlier in the week, but how dare you use a self contained vehicle is spot.
Councils are cut to the bone and kids at risk are being put at jeopardy because there’s no money, and you want councils to get into the tourist accommodation business?
I wouldn’t class it as tourist accommodation business, I would class it as investing in local infrastructure to boost local economies.
Provide something akin to aires so there’s space for tourists to go / stay. Combine it with a public crackdown of being drunk in a campervan on the public highway to discourage “wild camping” (there’s an oxymoron!) and I’m quite confident the airies would be net positive the council coffers along side the towns in which they are located.
Your argument smacks of being exactly the same nonsense you see on Facebook “Don’t build cycling infrastructure when there’s potholes on the roads” - ie the council should only be spending on things that benefit ME!!
(I’m not even a campervaner)
Why shouldn't the council build hotels in that case?
Provide something akin to aires so there’s space for tourists to go / stay.
There are places for tourists to stay. They don't want to pay for them!
Seems odd the support on here for people pitching a tent on the moors earlier in the week, but how dare you use a self contained vehicle is spot.
Lightweight proper wild camping causes no issues. Campervans parked roadside do. One has a very small environmental footprint, the other has a large one
One is legal under Scots law, one is not - its merely got a history of tolerance which is now being tested
But if you apply the point above about if one can do it everyone can ..........................
Not a campervanner but tempted. Hearing the comments about site prices!
Currently staying at the Camping & Caravan site at Millorchy Bay on Loch Lomond, in one of their Ready Camp type set ups - worked out at £90 a night. Been chatting to the family next door and they have also made tbe switch from a family tent at £40-50 a night pitch fee to Ready Camp - twice the price but proper beds, furniture, kitchen and no setting up or packing away.
There are places for tourists to stay. They don’t want to pay for them!
going by comments on this thread, the campsites are fully booked. So clearly there are an awfy lot of folk paying (what seems extortionate rates) to park up.
But if you apply the point above about if one can do it everyone can ……………………..
Yep. That's the philosophical argument about wild camping. I'm sure you've experienced the downsides, as I have.
Vans are great. Stop where you like, when you like, roll out of bed in the morning and you're where you want to be for the day's activity. Its brilliant, I'm just amazed it's taken everyone so long to cotton on.
Yes - I can only think of one real issue I have seen from poor practices/overuse of a site but I rarely go to honeypot sites
this is where I struggle. I think the roadside campervanning has gone way beyond the point of being acceptable. But ( from previous debates) its really hard to see how you can justify banning roadside camping whether practically or philosophically and leave real wild camping alone
anyone know how they manage this in Scandenavia?
Spin - so long as you don't care about the negative impact on local communities
Mellon Udrigle a good example I saw last week.
Is that not an official site of sort? There's water, disposal facilities and some portaloos.
Spin – so long as you don’t care about the negative impact on local communities
And what about the positive impacts? Plenty of folk in these communities depend on the tourist income.
To me it probably needs a seasonal approach. During the summer requires more oversight than spring autumn winter
Definitely the case in the Highlands, there are lots of places I'd be quite happy to park up in the winter that i wouldn't even consider in summer.
Highland Council employs seasonal rangers in the summer.
the campsites are fully booked.
Of course they are, it's the middle of August. You don't show up in a tourist town in the height of the summer season and demand the council builds more hotels because the existing ones are busy.
Your argument smacks of being exactly the same nonsense you see on Facebook “Don’t build cycling infrastructure when there’s potholes on the roads” – ie the council should only be spending on things that benefit ME!!
How dare you compare me to a Facebook user. 🤣
I'm not saying councils shouldn't do two things at once. I'm saying councils should focus on important things that the private sector won't do, like keeping children safe and educated, and housing and caring vulnerable people, and running libraries. That's doubly true when there's no bloody money in local government.
Developing campsites so that people in expensive fossil fuelled vehicles can have somewhere cheap or free to park them overnight, when the private sector is already operating those campsites, is just...not a good use of public money or council time.
I think that a lot of buyers are retirees who use a chunk of their pension to buy the ‘Van’
I have no actual idea but I'd guess that maybe 50% of the vans in the Highlands right now are rentals.
Would be interesting to know the actual stats.
And what about the positive impacts? Plenty of folk in these communities depend on the tourist income.
Which the vanlifers provide very little of
Developing campsites so that people in expensive fossil fuelled vehicles can have somewhere cheap or free to park them overnight, when the private sector is already operating those campsites, is just…not a good use of public money or council time.
and that’s where I think we disagree - in my view, they would bring in money to the council and provide a revenue stream, alongside benefiting local <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">communities -not be a drain on precious council resources. </span>
Which the vanlifers provide very little of
You're just dealing in lazy stereotypes.
We're currently paying £26 a night in a Highland campsite with dozens of other vans paying the same or more. I'd say about half the units in this site are vans rather than tents. £32 for lunch and a couple of pints in the busy campsite restaurant, probably go for dinner somewhere in the village on Saturday. I’ve got no doubt there are a few people who stock up and don't spend much but its pretty clear to me that the campervan boom is a cash cow for the Highlands.
The original post was drawing attention to a survey launched by Visit Scotland that may help with future facilities for visitors. I’ve completed the survey and perhaps you motorhome haters could start your own thread and implode with your own negativity!
Let's talk about another sort of entitlement. The entitlement some people in rural areas feel they have to live in a beautiful place and have it to themselves,
to have jobs and services and money in the area without having to deal with any of the negatives brought by a major source of those things, tourism.
In a campsite you are not part of the problem.
Its certainly a topic that divides local communities but a lot of the folk in little villages up north have just had enough. Some of the stories are just awful. From a pal who could not get to work because some vanlifer had blocked his drive in Plockton to the chap who found someone crapping in his driveway to the folk who drive onto the machair to camp up even removing "no access" signs to do so ripping up fragile habitat while doing so.
There is plenty of evidence of the issues caused. It is also true that some vanlifers bring very little to the local economy
In a campsite you are not part of the problem.
No, I definitely am part of the problem because I'm not always in a campsite.
vanlifers
I guess we all need a bogeyman to hate TJ, and using a term like vanlifer really helps with that because it de-personalises. A quite amazing number of the vans I see have bikes on them so maybe your vanlifers are not so different from you.
Errmm - yes they are. I don't roadside camp anymore, I don't own a vehicle, etc etc but I take the above point. what drifted into a intereststing wee discussion around the pressures campervans can cause has led to a polarised arguement
I don't hate them, its not a bogeyman. It was a nice discussion around the pressures and solutions.
Just back from three and a half weeks in a small motorhome in France. Co2 wise it's about the same as two people flying then hiring a car. in France the local councils have much more freedom to spend cash as they please, folk staying in vans (80% of people doing this rather than tents) do bring money in because folk do go into villages and towns and spend money. I have a nagging doubt that the same would happen in Scotland, hand on heart, how many people would go into say Fort William for a cultural and gastronomic experience (more than once...)? Yes I know there are many nice places too.
You could make the point that folk holidaying in Skye in a van rather than a property are actually helping in as much that locals can't afford to live in Skye as so many houses are holiday lets. Really the problem lies in the amount of visitors rather than where they stay.
I have never seen someone leave their motorhome to shit outside (they actually have toilets inside), are people confusing them with the van conversion crowd?
cause has led to a polarised arguement
You need to take some responsibility for that with your use of terms like vanlifers and calls for blanket bans. De-personalising groups is always going lead to polarisation. How positively would you engage with someone referring to all cyclists as red light jumpers?
have never seen someone leave their motorhome to shit outside (they actually have toilets inside), are people confusing them with the van conversion crowd?
As a long time member of the van conversion crowd I have perfected the art of shitting in a bag and disposing of it responsibily. Pedal bin liners have a suitably wide opening. My wife's experimentation with dog poo bags was brief and unsuccessful. 😀
Scotland sounds like a bloody horrible place to visit now that thousands of people are randomly 'camping' in laybys, outside people's house etc.
Well, really it only sounds like it because this threads gone a bit Daily Mail.
Scotland sounds like a bloody horrible place to visit now that thousands of people are randomly ‘camping’ in laybys, outside people’s house etc
Yeah. Don't bother coming up, I prefer it quieter. 😜
Hi Simon, Scotland is a great place to visit. Just pick your time and avoid honeypots, there's plenty of quiet space, avoid school holidays.
this is where I struggle. I think the roadside campervanning has gone way beyond the point of being acceptable. But ( from previous debates) its really hard to see how you can justify banning roadside camping whether practically or philosophically and leave real wild camping alone
Making wild camping illegal would have very little effect on people actually wild camping rather than doing it within sight of their car. I've never had any bother doing it in England or Wales but then I've only ever done it on my own and away from other people.
The entitlement some people in rural areas feel they have to live in a beautiful place and have it to themselves, to have jobs and services and money in the area without having to deal with any of the negatives brought by a major source of those things, tourism.
The bagshitter that complained about "de-personalisation" and "bogeymen" also totally invented an argument that literally no-one is making. 🤣
in my view, they would bring in money to the council and provide a revenue stream
This is exactly the trap councils fell into when they started energy companies - they couldn't decide whether the point was to make money for the council (in which case, what makes it different from the existing private providers?) or to provide cheap energy to customers (which is fine, but it's gonna cost money). In the end, most of them ended up doing neither.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-54056695
Wild campers offer nothing to the local economy, they pitch up in the ‘wild’ and don’t use local facilities, leave a mess and disturb the wildlife. ‘Van lifers’ park up near towns or pubs, the use the local facilities and bring money to local area and will happily pay a fee to stay in a spot. The environmental impact is no different to wild campers who drive near where they stay, abandon their car taking up spaces where they shouldn’t and cause problems with parking.
Is that enough generalisation?
Reality is both can offer an income to local facilities, both can be sensible and of course there is idiots in both groups who ruin it for those who are respectable.
Hi Simon, Scotland is a great place to visit. Just pick your time and avoid honeypots, there’s plenty of quiet space, avoid school holidays.
Spot on.
Can I go to sleep now (in my motorhome) happy that we’re all friends again, or can be?
Well I shall sleep comfortably knowing I've paid my campsite fees, all be it to some corporate company down south, as well as about the same amount into the local economy.
I always thought that we were all friends on here 🤞
If you work out the turnover on this basic campsite run by two people I'm sure the revenue would be better going into the local community coffers 🤔
