[Closed] Vaccine Denialsim

Why did Wakefield publish?

According to the paragon of truth that is wikipedia
" he planned a rival vaccine and products (such as a diagnostic kit based on his theory) that could have made his fortune."
ie he made patent submissions for the above.

So who paid him and why ?

http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm

According to this - you did, via the legal aid system...

It's a good read, but in a nutshell, he was paid to produce evidence linking MMR to bowel illness and autism in order to support compensation claims against the NHS/vaccine manufacturers.

I love the irony that the website that you are linking to - claiming that regulators are misrepresenting the scientific data - is running an advert (directly under the headline) that says:

"1 fruit that kills diabetes! Prevent or reverse type 2 diabetes by eating this 1 food from the grocery store"

Ah that'll be Natural News then - the site that not very long ago published a piece about [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/homeopathy-madness ]how to make your own homeopathic Ebola treatment by taking blood and saliva from Ebola victims[/url]!

Yep, they seem credible. 😯

"Here's a picture of a cat doing a rubic's cube that was also on the internet:"

the picture is missing - IT'S A COVER UP

BTW smithw6079 is a lizard botherer

and if you want to start making links make sure you have checked everything
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-10/risk-of-autism-twice-as-high-if-mothers-have-pre-eclampsia-duri/5957472

https://www.gov.uk/vaccine.../overview

So the government must just be pandering to the whimsical nature of conspiracy theory ?

linky no worky?

Maybe you mean this? https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment

Seems like a good idea, I wonder how much the unvaccinated damage payments would be?

Quick move house they are on to you and have deleted your link

Have you see enemy of the state?

That's you that is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4356027.stm

[url= http://www.sott.net/article/289989-Outbreak-of-whooping-cough-at-Massachusetts-high-school-affected-only-those-who-were-vaccinated ]Do vaccines really work?[/url]

[url= http://vactruth.com/2014/10/05/bill-gates-vaccine-crimes/ ]Is Bill Gates facing a lawsuit for illegal vaccine testing in India?[/url]

[url= http://truthaboutgardasil.org/injuries/ ]Did the HPV vaccine damge these young women?[/url]

[url= http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vaccine-news/march-2011/no-pharma-liability--no-vaccine-mandates-.aspx ]Why can't US citizens sue the drug companies for vaccine damage?[/url]

[url= http://pathwaystofamilywellness.org/Informed-Choice/how-do-vaccines-work-immune-mechanisms-and-consequences.html ]Again, Do vaccines work[/url]

[url= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpC0Tbb3diI&feature=youtu.be ]Why is a doctor questioning the safety of vaccines?[/url]

Just a few questions I have about the safety of vaccines. I'm not some loon or 'halfwit. I'm just a parent trying to get the full picture and the truth. Which often leaves me feeling stuck between a rock and hard place.

OK vaccines do work, there may be side effects but compared to a pandemic it's not that bad. Not to do sweeping generalisations but research for is based in research and against anecdotal.

I'm [s]not[/s] some loon

FTFY

It just goes to show that the problems people have with making an informed choice. It depends on how discriminating you are with your sources of information.....

Some people seem prepared to accept any old.... information... as long as it appears on the internet.

I'm just a parent trying to get the full picture and the truth. Which often leaves me feeling stuck between a rock and hard place.

Good analogy. Let's imagine the "hard place" is science, let's imagine it's a concrete floor, the the weight of evidence behind it is the whole world. Then let's imagine the "rock" is the weight of evidence against the efficacy of vaccines, proportionately sized. So you're standing on a concrete floor with a grain of sand in your hair. Now brush off the grain of sand, go home, get your kids and get them vaccinated, so they they and those around them aren't at risk of preventable infectious disease.

as they say the answer is this

Yes they work and whilst they have some minor risks associated them they are less than the risks and consequences of catching the disease.

re your links
Do vaccines work
Laughable use of emottive language and cherry picking of facts

the pro-vaccine line

any deviation from the standard vaccine protocol, which is basically to take whatever the government says is good for you, becomes the automatic scapegoat when an outbreak occurs

Bill gates comes from Vactruth.com

Jeffry was a rescue swimmer in the United States Navy and held a Top Secret clearance. In 2000, he was honorably discharged from the Navy and a year later started his family. In 2001 his first son, Brandon, was born. Twenty one vaccines later, his son stopped reaching his developmental milestones.

After extensively researching the vaccine literature, he discovered vaccine injuries happen frequently and parents are often feared into getting their child vaccinated.

third one parents talking about ill kids I struggle with long sentences

If you search the internet you will fin dill informed folk clutching at straws to generate and get information to support their biases

you are in danger of becoming one of them if you are not already there

Nothing is safe but the best way to protect your kids , whilst not infallible, is to vaccinate

jimoiseau - Member
I'm just a parent trying to get the full picture and the truth. Which often leaves me feeling stuck between a rock and hard place.
Good analogy. Let's imagine the "hard place" is science, let's imagine it's a concrete floor, the the weight of evidence behind it is the whole world. Then let's imagine the "rock" is the weight of evidence against the efficacy of vaccines, proportionately sized. So you're standing on a concrete floor with a grain of sand in your hair. Now brush off the grain of sand, go home, get your kids and get them vaccinated, so they they and those around them aren't at risk of preventable infectious disease.

^^^^
Likey

"I'm just a parent trying to get the full picture and the truth" in 1980 2.6 million deaths from measles . Polio was a big issue once . Vaccines work . Unvaccinated children are at risk and put others at risk.
Notice the sources of your links and follow them up they are not that credible . Vaccines like many things can have very rare side effects . The diseases against which we vaccinate have very real life changing or ending symptoms .

Funny how the anti-vacc lot never seem interested in the horrific side effects inherent in [i]not[/i] vaccinating, isn't it.

I'm just a parent trying to get the full picture and the truth.

Perfectly understandable. Read back, I answered that question two pages ago.

After extensively researching the vaccine literature, he discovered vaccine injuries happen frequently

That's a pretty vague word right there. "frequently"

The key question is how does that frequency of vaccine injury compare to the frequency of "unvaccinated injury"?

The handy infographic suggested there were 2.6 MILLION deaths from measles as recently as 1980. That's pretty damn frequent!

Nobody seems bothered about strapping the kids in the car seat or going on a plane. "Car injuries and Plane injuries frequently happen."

This thread and it's topic is repeated countless times on the web. In many cases the the pro vac crew resort to aggression and ridicule towards anyone that dares to question the issue. The whole debate seems very black and white, yet millions of people sit in the grey area, wanting balanced facts.

Surely someone (with no links to government and or drug companies) should conduct an impartial balanced study. If not, does it not suggest the concerns of many people are considered not be important or relevant in the matter of everyone's health and wellbeing.

In the name of science let's revisit this thread in 20 years and compare the lives and health of those vaccinated an unvaccinated. I'm up for it.

[quote=chipsngravy ]In the name of science let's revisit this thread in 20 years and compare the lives and health of those vaccinated an unvaccinated. I'm up for it.

Or we could just do that now. I wonder how many of these people were vaccinated?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22277186
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-23244628

Plenty of independent research already mentioned on this thread. Interestingly the most famous study to find a link did have funding from vested interests.

The balanced facts are readily available - those websites suggesting otherwise aren't the most sensible (I'm searching for a term which you won't consider aggression and ridicule - there's certainly very little of that on this thread, just lots of attempts at rational explanation).

Putting my money where my mouth is,

I've just had a vaccination at lunchtime.

</aside>

Sorry cougar. The vaccine for stupidity is wholly unproven 😛

Putting my money where my mouth is,

I've just had a vaccination at lunchtime.

</aside>

Just as balance to all the alarmist websites giving details of things people think were due to them receiving vaccinations:

http://www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/stories

Of course that site might also be biased, but the organisations behind it don't appear to have direct links to government or drugs companies
http://oxfordbrc.nihr.ac.uk/
http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/

In the name of science let's revisit this thread in 20 years and compare the lives and health of those vaccinated an unvaccinated. I'm up for it.

The thing is, pretty much all medical procedures involve some degree of risk and side-effect, however slight it might be.

So on an individual level it [i]might[/i] conceivably be safer to avoid the (very minor) risk of vaccines because chances are you'll still benefit from herd immunity by being surrounded by people who have been vaccinated.

Of course that is incredibly selfish and all falls apart if more than a few percent of people refuse vaccination, which is why anti-vaccination movements are so worrying.

Sorry cougar. The vaccine for stupidity is wholly unproven

Get out. (-:

The whole debate seems very black and white, yet millions of people sit in the grey area, wanting balanced facts.

You know sometimes things really are black and white. Just because there are two different views doesn't mean the truth lies somewhere near the middle. The fact is that the media insist on presenting two opposing views as if they are of equal merit and sometimes they're not.

Surely someone (with no links to government and or drug companies) should conduct an impartial balanced study

You mean like the Cochrane reviews?

In the name of science let's revisit this thread in 20 years and compare the lives and health of those vaccinated an unvaccinated. I'm up for it.

Why wait 20 years? Vaccines aren't new, just look at the last 20 years to see the impact. Incidentally this has been done and the balance is massively in favour of vaccination.

Chipsandgravy
I'm sorry you feel that you cannot make a decision.
I feel that what you are saying is that in reality you do not understand how medical research works so you need to find someone you feel you can trust to tell you the truth?
My solution:
1) Either learn how it works and then look at the evidence (see the concrete vs grain of sand analogy up there)
2) Trust the scientists who have an enormous task of meeting all the checks and balances before a vaccine is allowed to go into production.
3) Do neither but snipe from the sidelines about how it is all wrong. (which I think is what drives the pissed offness of the majority of scientists)

Just because there are two different views doesn't mean the truth lies somewhere near the middle.

This ^^^
It's like tottally completly the most oftenestly commmmittted logical phallusy on the planet innit. ((sic) for the pedants)

This thread and it's topic is repeated countless times on the web. In many cases the the pro vac crew resort to aggression and ridicule towards anyone that dares to question the issue. The whole debate seems very black and white, yet millions of people sit in the grey area, wanting balanced facts.

[i]cf.[/i] Climate Change

[img] [/img]

cf. Climate Change

Its a symptom of general science denialism/mistrust thing that we need to solve.

The whole debate seems very black and white, yet millions of people sit in the grey area, wanting balanced facts.

I agree there are millions and millions of idiots with opinions on this.
If you want balanced facts why are you citing from agenda led sources that think they are bad and then they produce evidence that shows this? The ex navy seal dad who blamed it for his sons development issues for example. Parents with ill children who blame the vaccine etc. These are anecdotes and they are not balanced facts. Folk get cross because your evidence is poor/not actually evidence and you ignore the actual evidence and say things like government held view, tow the party line etc

As others not the Cochrane collaboration* provide what you want

The problem is YES occasionally complications arise form vaccinations [ rarely what those anti sites claim - see cougars phallacy] but the risk of this is massively less than the risk of the disease.

As simple as it can be said . Take your pick as to which risk you wish to expose your child to but you CANNOT eliminate it completely. The vaccination route is the least risky of the two choices by large factor. Millions died of the disease for example.

* makes me think of an acid Jazz band for some reason.

FWIW they even discuss how best to communicate the information to the masses

http://www.cochrane.org/features/do-interventions-aimed-communities-inform-and-educate-about-childhood-vaccination-improve-o

[i]The problem is YES occasionally complications arise form vaccinations ... but the risk of this is massively less than the risk of the disease.[/i]

This x1000

Vaccination is about accepting that the population as a whole benefits even if, for some individuals, there are side effects.

This is true for *all* drugs prescribed - they all have adverse effects on somebody but, overall, they treat disease successfully.

It does not mean that autism is a proven side effect of a vaccine though.

The problem is YES occasionally complications arise form vaccinations ... but the risk of this is massively less than the risk of the disease.

This x1000

Tell that to all the soldiers who came back from Iraq with gulf war syndrome , only they didn't because it doesn't exist .

Tell that to all the soldiers who came back from Iraq with gulf war syndrome , only they didn't because it doesn't exist

Well does it or not?

How many soldiers were vaccinated and how many claim to have the syndrome?

To repeat - it's about looking at the vaccinated population as a whole. Even if an adverse reaction is observed it may still be less than the number who would have been more badly affected by the disease.

It's like this statistic. We could save cyclists lives by making helmets compulsory but overall more people would die;

[img] [/img]

What has Gulf War Syndrome got to do with general vaccines. Serving soldiers who were expected to face chemical biological weapons were given drugs to ensure they continued to function within a relitvely short time frame any one who thought the sort of stuff they needed to combat nerve agents would be without long term harm was willfully blind. My mates who were in the BOAR in the 80s all knew that the stuff issued was going to harm them and expressed considerable reservations about ever using it.

Tell that to all the soldiers who came back from Iraq with gulf war syndrome , only they didn't because it doesn't exist .

Soldiers who were exposed to intense physical and psychological stress as well as depleted uranium, oil well fires, nerve gas, anthrax, nerve gas antidote and anthrax vaccine.

Yeah, it was probably [i]really[/i] due to their MMR vaccinations 🙄

Funny how the anti-vacc lot never seem interested in the horrific side effects inherent in not vaccinating, isn't it.

The problem is YES occasionally complications arise form vaccinations [ rarely what those anti sites claim - see cougars phallacy] but the risk of this is massively less than the risk of the disease.

Plus extreme statements of "horrific"

I'd post the results of a Google Image search for "smallpox" but it's not really suitable for this site.

Suffice to say that "horrific" is fairly accurate, but luckily smallpox was wiped out by.... vaccinations! yay!