[Closed] Vaccine Denialsim

Tell that to all the soldiers who came back from Iraq with gulf war syndrome , only they didn't because it doesn't exist .
Soldiers who were exposed to intense physical and psychological stress as well as depleted uranium, oil well fires, nerve gas, anthrax, nerve gas antidote and anthrax vaccine.

Yeah, it was probably really due to their MMR vaccinations

Wow soldiers were exposed to Anthrax . Funny because they never found any .

@Cougar. Bit of a sweeping generalisation there.

I'm terribly sorry. Can you cite me an example of an anti-vac site or organisation which highlights the dangers of not vaccinating? I'll cheerfully withdraw my generalisation then.

Plus extreme statements of "horrific" and "never"

Dunno about you, but I'd consider "death" to be a fairly horrific side effect. You think maybe they'll get better?

Quick example for you of a non-horrific side effect of not vaccinating.

[img] [/img]

Sign me up.

whether the risk is massively less than the disease depends entirely on the vaccine/disease and whether an alternative route was followed, eg MMR single vs multiple

1. If you take the vaccination you are vaccinated so no 🙄

2. Can you name a vaccination where the risk of complications/side affects are greater than the risks of the disease?

CAN YOU ? if not that "fact" is a baseless claim.

Well done for cherry picking the facts their may be complications...cognitive bias in action matched with ignoring the facts that refute your beliefs.
Well done

Wow soldiers were exposed to Anthrax . Funny because they never found any .

Hmmm.. so you believe them when they say there was no anthrax, but you don't believe them when they say that [url=

]"anthrax vaccine is not a likely cause of Gulf War illness"[/url]?

Some people may call that confirmation bias.

Some people may call that confirmation bias.

I call it a straw man. Utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Yeah that too.

yet millions of people sit in the grey area, wanting balanced facts.

sadly it was showing apparent balance that lead to the MMR hoax taking hold so ferociously. Simplistic editorial balance meant having one voice for the majority, established, evidence based medical sector and another voice for a lawyer-sponsored medical fraud and later for a handful of pretend-medical practitioners from the alternative medicine sector.

This was happening when the 'Nutrionist' fad was starting to gain traction. Nutrionism is new-agism re-packaged in every way possible to look like it might be real fact based science, and backed by lots of marketable product. At the time of the MMR hoohah nobody really knew (and the media certainly didn't seem to realise) that a 'Nutrionist' wasn't a doctor, even if he or she had a Harley Street address, and gave practioners from the movement airtime as if they were.

The problem with this 'balance' is it appears to make the issue 50:50. even though the weight and validity of argument falls extremely heavily one way.

The hoax was the fault of one doctor. He was paid to perpetrate the hoax because some lawyers wanted some ready-mix data for a court case which hinged on two events that coincided - they didn't have the evidence they needed to create a causal link for two-things-that-just-happened-to-occur-at-the-same-time for their case so they paid for the evidence to be created.

The hoax shouldn't and wouldn't have had any traction outside that court room if it hadn't been seized upon by the alternative medical sector - who are primarily marketeers - and if any coverage of the issue hadn't been 'balanced'.

The balance presented is akin to the world knowing that white is white, but me suspecting that white is black. BBC breakfast decide to do an item on 'white' and both me and a world respected authority in hue are invited onto the couch to present out arguments. He says a 30 second bit, I say a 30 second bit, he counters my argument, I say I'm sticking to it and thats the exactly the sort of thing people like him who are so called experts would say, Bill Turnbull interrupts to say that all they have time for, now lets go the news and weather where you are. The audience is left to conclude that white might be grey.

Unfortunately 'balance' these days is pretty much reduced to "Geoff says 'Daddy', Arthur says 'Chips' text us on 86755 and tell us what you think"

*applauds*

excellent summary there Mr Mac.

Is it time to post Dara again?

He talks a bit about "balance" here.

BBC have also been challenged on this re AGW as well for the same reason

Balance is fine but there is a problem with balance as it massively overrepresents and legitimises alternative fringe views

the internet does not help as you will find evidence to support anything if you search well enough

There is another aspect - the MMR bullshit is no more or less compelling bullshit that every anti-oxidant / superfood / ....causes cancer /.... cures cancer / single tablet cures chronic condition only weeks away story we hear every day.

Non of those stories ever gain any real traction, they're quickly forgotten. MMR scaremongering worked because theres nobody more doubtful of their actions than the parent of a young child.

Unfortunately theres nobody more ready to tell a parent the thing they are about to do is wrong than self appointed, self qualifying, self important quasi medical arseholes. Particularly if they've got a book out.

Quite.

In a way I'm sad that this is even a discussion. But if people end up better informed as a result, that's a good thing, right?

I get that folk want to do the best for their kids, I really do. I can't imagine what it'd be like to get this sort of decision wrong. And it's not without precedence; the mothers who took Thalidomide, for a start.

But. This really is a no-brainer. As a parent it must be awful, and perfectly natural, to be dithering over what to do; sitting there thinking "well I don't know, you hear these stories..." And you do, they're endemic; but they are stories spun by idiots, the ignorant, attention-seekers, and people looking to sell newspapers or otherwise profit from the disadvantaged. Do yourself, your kids, and frankly society as a whole a favour and ignore them.

Vaccinate your children. Do it now. Trust me, I'm a [s]doctor[/s] geek with a dogged compulsion to question everything.

Not that it makes any real odds, but my Mrs is a doctor and we still had a brief [i]"what if"[/i] moment before we got our kids vaccinated.

As you say, it's only natural.

Of course. And rightly so.

FWIW I missed the MMR jab with my eldest as we were abroad when they sent the appointment and for the date - we were only gone 10 days. We then could not do the next one as he had a cold and they refused. The amount of literature the state bombarded us with with was startling. there was no way of saying we know and we will. Eventually, when he had it done, he cried more when they took his hat off than when he had the injection.

I agree with cougar all parents want to protect their kids from harm. unfortunately we cannot do it and we have to make choices. The best one ,for them and everyone else's children, is to vaccinate.

Its scary and you are nervous, as you are with many events with them but it is a no brainer.

GrahamS - Member
Wow soldiers were exposed to Anthrax . Funny because they never found any .
Hmmm.. so you believe them when they say there was no anthrax, but you don't believe them when they say that "anthrax vaccine is not a likely cause of Gulf War illness"?

Some people may call that confirmation bias.

POSTED 47 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Since they dispute that Gulf war syndrome actually exists then it would be difficult for them to claim Anthrax vaccine was a cause .

And just so we are clear here are you still claiming that anthrax was in Iraq to be used as a weapon ?

Statistically representative scientific debate.

Unfortunately 'balance' these days is pretty much reduced to "Geoff says 'Daddy', Arthur says 'Chips' text us on 86755 and tell us what you think"

Plus extreme statements of "horrific" and "never"

Here's another timely anecdote, just popped up on another thread.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-had-chicken-pox-vaccine#post-6534727

Having seen the consequences over the years of viral infections with kids turning into sepsis the more you can eliminate the better. The use of "horrific" and "never" aren't extreme, there's a very good reason they immunise against these illnesses.

I had no hesitation making sure my kids are up to day with immunisations.

I've just added my pics to that thread. We got away with her life, just.

Lots of reading [url= http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=MMR+AUTISM ]HERE[/url]and it's worth a giggle typing in Gillian McKeith in the site search bar.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/21/no-link-between-mmr-and-autism-major-study-concludes ]another study on MMR and autism[/url]

Why do we try to put people in two groups of being for or against something? If someone said they didn't like the look of Ellsworth bikes would we automatically label them anti-bike?

Just as all mtbs are different so too are vaccinations, even within the same class, vaccinations differ greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer and even within the same manufacturer. Manufacturing methods can be different, the strain can be different, what's removed from the virus can be different, the preservative the vaccine is preserved in can be different. Each of these has an effect on the finished product, the efficacy of the product and the side effects of the product.

If you have any concerns it's not wrong to ask questions, most vaccines will have been well tested through a broad range of the population for many years and this is why we accept most without question. There are examples, however, of vaccinations being rushed to market and then having unforeseen side affects such as the GSK flu vaccine in 2010 which left a load of kids with narcolepsy. But for the most part flu vaccines have been perfectly safe historically from GSK and other manufacturers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't try to make complex issues into black and white matters and don't be afraid to ask questions before accepting vaccines because most of the time you'll get a response that puts your mind at rest.

I had vaccinations. I have aspergers.
My daughter didn't have vaccinations, she has aspergers.

Funny world.

From the Gov.UK website ...

"If you’re severely disabled as a result of a vaccination against certain diseases, you could get a one-off tax-free payment of £120,000. This is called a Vaccine Damage Payment."

Yeah I guess the Government decided to pander to all those pesky deniers right .. ?

OP - hope that greasy pole is treating you well ..