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Starmer knows he has to appeal to the centre cos that’s where the numbers are to get into government. Suck it up.
The numbers arent in the centre. The numbers are on the left and on the right with some people who swing in the centre who sway elections but they are a distinct minority.
As for the electoral reform society putting pressure on Starmer lets get back to the real world. Remember the Labour conference was in favour of PR but it has been ignored as the centrists in labour will never support PR since thats the death knell for them. The centrists who do are in the libdems.
The only way to put effective pressure for PR is for people to vote for parties which offer it. If you "suck it up" then next election you will be expected to again.
The numbers arent in the centre. The numbers are on the left and on the right with some people who swing in the centre who sway elections but they are a distinct minority.
What is your source for that Diss? Happy to be convinced, but I'm not sure if that's correct.
I don't think you get PR by voting for PR parties, I think you have to make it such a big issue through non-aligned interest groups and force the issue. Otherwise we'll all be here in 5 years grizzling about the iniquities of FPTP again.
Grizzling about labour not being left enough has been going on since at least the 80s. How much change did the rich kids selling Socialist Worker outside Sainsbury's on the Lewes Road effect? How much change did Derek Hatton and Militant effect in the 90s? How much change did Momentum effect in the 2010s? I don't think dogma appeals to the wider electorate.
Labour have only been successful at getting into government when the leftie lefties aren't trying to eff it up
You know……….. morons
Takes a bit of joined up thinking and the ability to hold more than one idea in your head at a time but if you really tried hard maybe you could realise that maximising the size of the Labour majority is not a good enough reason to vote for a party and leader you fundamentally don't agree with.
Many of us morons are worried that if Starmer's manifesto gets the ringing endorsement you all seem so keen on the country is going to be in serious trouble in 5 years time.
The Tories are finished for this election cycle. The important thing is the lessons Labour takes away from this election. If everyone accepts the Tory-lite ideaology that Starmer is pushing then nothing significant is going to improve in the next 5 years and things could even get worse.
That then sets the stage for a turbo-nutter Reform/Tory government with a massive majority at the next election. Just think of the fun PM Farage will have the UK's lack of checks and balances in government.
Are the morons here the ones who might be taking a long view or the ones who can't see anything beyond the morning of the 5th July?
Given the level of undecided voters the massive majority is not guaranteed, and with people making a protest vote it just raises the likelihood that Labour could have a small majority.
The morons comment was just an excuse to quote blazing saddles really.
Honestly at the moment I just want the tories out and will see what happens. I could see that in 4 years time when the labour approval drops significantly discussion of pr becomes a lot more active, this is my hope.
I would prefer to vote green or libdem but will hold my nose and vote labour simply as fptp does not and hasn't ever allowed me to vote in a way that my vote actually counts.
What is your source for that Diss?
Look at the last two general elections. Neither Labour or the Conservatives were offering centrist manifestos yet between them they hoovered up the vast majority of votes.
Despite Corbyn's divisive leadership, Labour isn't polling any better now than it was in 2016. That does suggest the current predictions of tory wipeout don't have much to do with Labour's pivot to the centre, and much more to do with Tory implosion.
I want conservatives out but have serious concerns with Starmer in fact I don't trust him or believe a word he says, now I do like Angela Rayner - I actually don't really want to vote but just need to see the back of the Conservatives.
We are all aware that, despite what some in the media might claim, both the LibDems and the E&W Greens are offering centrist policies as well? Getting one more MP in place for any of those parties (or SNP, PC or Scottish Greens) will help move the country towards the centre, away from the right. Same goes for a Labour MP.
Kick.
The.
Tories.
Out.
Make them rue their strengthening of FPTP across the UK. Make them pay. Wipe them out.
I'm thinking of voting Green for the first time in spite of not actually wanting them in power. My thinking is thus - mainstream parties seeing an increasing Green vote will be encouraged to adopt more Green policies; some of their ideas about wealth distribution are also fundamentally right; I don't think the Green party attracts the best political thinkers because they are too far from power, a few more votes might change this and give us an more competent party in the future (we really need better alternatives to Labour and the Conservatives).
Might be worth chucking in that I'm up in the Highlands (Inverness Skye and West Ross-Shire, past MPs Charles Kennedy then Iain Blackford) and Drew Hendry SNP is probably a shoe in here. I'm for Scottish independence but now think that the SNP needs a reset; I also have a dislike for Kate Forbes on account of her membership of a cult and the bad taste from that is putting me off the whole party along with some of the corruption whiff - although nearly all parties smell bad nowadays.
Unfortunately our Liberal Democrat candidate Angus MacDonald is a total grifter. He's a successful businessman who is actually a Tory but is so power hungry he's donned a Lib Dem coat. What a shame for the Liberal Democrats that they can't find someone that any canny Highlander could see straight through. Amused to see him jump out of his liveried pickup to tell off some driver of a wee silver car at roadworks outside Spean Bridge the other day. He managed to get back in his pick up and be last through the green light, leaving me and several others from his constituency stuck by the red light. So I am campaigning against him this electoral cycle, every time I have a conversation with someone local about politics.
There ends my one post on politics for the year.
Stupidity is such a valuable resource if you can get to it first
Frank Zappa once said it was the most common element in the universe.
Why do journalists keep asking about past support for Corbyn in the Labour party & not Sunak's support for Johnson?
if you really tried hard maybe you could realise that maximising the size of the Labour majority is not a good enough reason to vote for a party and leader you fundamentally don’t agree with.
And if you think a little harder still (come on, you can do it, big effort now)* then you might realise that there could be multiple outcomes of a large or a small Labour majority. For example, a Tory party with a large number of seats in opposition might see their electoral strategy as a success, and continue to court the far right element of society - and possibly win. However a wipeout would demonstrate the futility of such tactics and force a complete rethink. A more centred Tory party in the future would benefit us all.
*I only added this bit of nastiness to demonstrate how unpleasant and unnecessary it is to throw shit on the internet. Don't do it.
Labour have only been successful at getting into government when the leftie lefties aren’t trying to eff it up
Oh that's right, it's always the lefts fault.
The last ones that had that notion went of to form Tinge. Remind me how that one worked out again?
Before that was the SDP, remind me where they eventually ended up?
If you want centrist policies (incorporating both left and right) then vote, campaign for or join the party that offers them, stop trying to hijack a party then demonise the ones that don't agree with you. Scotland was a lesson, bloody learn it already!
My thinking is thus – mainstream parties seeing an increasing Green vote will be encouraged to adopt more Green policies
The other way of looking at this is that the Green party need to decide whether they're just a protest vote/party or whether they want to effect change. They operate in a FPTP system and they must have realised that they can only see their policies enacted if they become part of a larger, more mainstream party, and align themselves accordingly. Otherwise they're just wasting everyone's time.
All its going to take is a few more Tories to be implicated in the betting scandal (and rumors its a cabinet minister being true)
Then Ed Davey could be LOTO
https://twitter.com/MarwanData/status/1804075072958705720
I want conservatives out but have serious concerns with Starmer in fact I don’t trust him or believe a word he says, now I do like Angela Rayner – I actually don’t really want to vote but just need to see the back of the Conservatives.
This for me too. Starmer is flip-flopping, refusing to commit, sitting on the fence, chasing the populist vote - like the Tories proclaiming to be on the side of drivers with their ridiculous "Plan For Drivers" rubbish only for Starmer to come out with "no, WE'RE on the side of drivers and will fix twelvty million potholes in the first week".
He could absolutely tear the Tories to bits if he put half a mind to it, instead it's like he's following them round taking notes on all their policies, making them marginally less appalling and then promising to Stop The Boats but not in a Tory way. Make Brexit Work but not in a Tory way.
Before that was the SDP, remind me where they eventually ended up?
That just triggered a memory from a few days back. The SDP are still going but have, well, been on a political "journey".
They have apparently formed some sort of pact with...Reform!😐
Given the level of undecided voters the massive majority is not guaranteed, and with people making a protest vote it just raises the likelihood that Labour could have a small majority.
A small majority would make Labour (and everyone else) look very closely at which parties they lost votes to. If they see most of their missing votes going to Reform which way do you think the next 5 years is going to go? Likewise, if they see them going to the Greens?
*I only added this bit of nastiness to demonstrate how unpleasant and unnecessary it is to throw shit on the internet. Don’t do it.
Wow, being such a big man must make it difficult to fit through doorways. You are so much better than us mere mortals.
There's a lot of frothing about people not using their votes in the way others might want. Hate to tell you but it's supposed to work that way. Wisdom of crowds and whatnot.
I can see the logic behind trying to wipe out the Tories but even if the Tories are relegated to a footnote in history the ideology that led to their current incarnation is not going anywhere until the causes are addressed. Labour are showing no signs of addressing the causes and giving them the hugest possible majority is not likely to make them to do so.
While I can see the logic, imo the argument isn't strong enough to make me think using my vote to express my opinion rather than just to 'get the Tories out' is the wrong choice. But naturally others are going to come to different conclusions.
If someone is going to suggest others are stupid for not thinking the same way they do then a bit of a clap back is to be expected.
I think farage may have played a blinder by endorsing tate. It may have been a savvy response to Sunaks statement re national service and removing rights. A number* of those young voters who heard that and thought nope, not voting Tory are also going to be the impressionable types who may look up to tate and therefore vote for Reform.
That and it's the playbook of say something controversial = more airtime. It's a win win for him.
*no idea what that number may be but if it's greater than zero then it's a win for him.
Labour have only been successful at getting into government when the leftie lefties aren’t trying to eff it up
Regression to the mean?
In recent times parties get kicked out of power, do some navel gazing, elect some relative extremists as leaders (IDS, Corbyn, etc) , lose some more elections, swing back the other way at about the same time they get elected again. The same when they're in power.
It's just the sine wave of internal party politics seems to have about double the frequency of the country as a whole's ability to get fed up with an incumbent.
Blair (center) Brown (left) Wilderness and Corbyn (left) Starmer (center)
IDS/Hague/etc (right) Cameron (center) Current shitshow (right)
Labour.....................Tory................................................Labour.
I wouldn't draw much more of a conclusion from that other than to say that if parties swing widely one way, it's more likely the next swing will be the other way. the exception that proves the rule is the current omnishambles that keeps swinging to the right and may well end up imploding completely.
I think farage may have played a blinder by endorsing tate. It may have been a savvy response to Sunaks statement re national service and removing rights.
savvy ? except he made it back in february before anyone knew about Sunaks national service plan.
really pushing the boat for the welsh 😕
Blair (center) Brown (left) Wilderness and Corbyn (left) Starmer (center)
IDS/Hague/etc (right) Cameron (center) Current shitshow (right)
Labour…………………Tory…………………………………………Labour.
But this tends to support the point made earlier that the electorate lives in the middle and that is the way to become a governing party.
The only way we change this pendulum swinging back and forth is to do something different and that is looking seriously at our electoral system and PR allowing everybody's vote to count. We'd "enjoy" much more representative politics if we could do that. Hopefully Starmer will allow that debate at conference in the next couple of years
@Klunk That poll when put into Electoral Calculus or FT predicts the highest number of seats yet. For Labour! Also puts LD into second place and 5 seats for Reform. Funnily enough the FT forecast using those figures gives 5 seats to Reform but LAB taking Clacton! If Reform were to get any seats it would be quite funny if Farage didn't win.
Hopefully Starmer will allow that debate at conference in the next couple of years
The last time the NEC debated this, the Unions were dead set against it, so there's that.
Labour conference was in favour of PR but it has been ignored as the centrists in labour will never support PR since thats the death knell for them.
They'll never support PR. Apart from when they did when setting up devolved government in Wales. And in Scotland too. And in Northern Ireland as well. And in London come to think of it. But apart from that, never.
Labour Centrists in government have spread more bloody PR across this sodding country than any frigging Momentumite in glorious opposition. English voters couldn't give a shit about PR or more devolution, as proven by the failed referendum in the NE and a total lack of interest. all this PR stuff just sounds like Lib Dem 1990s wibbling to them.
Key unions have changed their positions now Nick.
Where the Conservatives have been moving more elections to FPTP (Mayors for example), I expect Labour to once more gradually enable more voting via more PR like systems. But not for those sitting in the Commons, not before we've had to deal with at least one if not two more FPTP general elections after this. The accusation of wasting time on politics rather than fixing the country would be too sticky to do anything in a first term. The Tories can get away with all their changes (voterID, changing the voting system for loads of elections, doing away with MEPs) of course... but hey.
I would prefer to vote green or libdem but will hold my nose and vote labour simply as fptp does not and hasn’t ever allowed me to vote in a way that my vote actually counts.
Isn't that a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy? As long as people vote for 2 parties, there will only be 2 parties in power. If you vote with your conscience then - maybe not this time, but eventually - there can be real change. This happened in Greece where the 2 party system of Pasok and ND was upset when people voted Syriza, which was an outside party at the time.
Anyway - regardless of anything else, I'm not voting for Starmer under any circumstances.
The only way we change this pendulum swinging back and forth is to do something different and that is looking seriously at our electoral system and PR allowing everybody’s vote to count.
You really want the 18-19% of votes for Farage to count for something?! I'm sure Nigel will be very grateful for giving him the one thing he wants more than anything else. 🙄
We’d “enjoy” much more representative politics if we could do that.
No we wouldn't. Policy would be decided by negotiation and horse trading between parties rather than what voters voted for. It adds another layer of obfuscation and opacity to the democratic process. If representative politics isn't working, there are much better options to fix it that giving more power to politicians.
zippykonaFull Member
So the frog faced c*** has now said that Andrew tate is a positive voice for men.
I find this more repulsive than insider betting.This needs more coverage from the media, the TV news in particular, than it gets.
I'm sure the BBC will be right on it. Oh... Wait ...
If you vote with your conscience then – maybe not this time, but eventually – there can be real change. This happened in Greece...
Why bother looking at Greece? Why not look at the assemblies within the UK where we already have PR - 3 out of 4 constituent nations and London (where a bit under 20% of the English population lives)? Has that resulted in real change just because PR was introduced?
You really want the 18-19% of votes for Farage to count for something
No - but the likelihood is that if we had had PR for a couple of decades the political and electoral landscape would look very different, be way more representative (including left wing views). people wouldn't need to call referenda on EU membership cos the UKIP nutjobs wouldn't have been a threat to the old tory party in the way they were with FPTP letting UKIP through in a small number of seats
Can someone remind me what the minimum value of things we are supposed to GAF about is? Apparently the £100 Tory bet was very very important but the SNP (supposedly) using public funds for partisan campaigning is not at all important? How do I decide whether I GAF about something until I know the exact value of the thing? I’m so confused!
The betting scandal has got nothing to do with the money, it's about integrity - or is that not a trait you care about?
But this tends to support the point made earlier that the electorate lives in the middle and that is the way to become a governing party.
No it doesnt. The fact the libdems dont win every election demonstrates this is bollocks. That the SDP and change vanished without a trace also supports this.
All it shows is that the core vote normally keeps voting for the party and then the swing voters in the centre swing it.
However that relies on the core vote continuing to vote for them. Given Labours current ideological purging of of the left and their dedicated pursuing of right wing votes that is increasingly questionable. The new labour "who else will they vote for" stops working when hard right ERG members are welcomed but left wingers thrown out.
This is something Blair appreciated with his offering of policies for the centre but also for the left but now the centrists seem to have deluded themselves into thinking that they are all dominant and hence are only wanting policies for themselves.
You really want the 18-19% of votes for Farage to count for something?! I’m sure Nigel will be very grateful for giving him the one thing he wants more than anything else. 🙄
Do you really think denying representation to 1in 5 people is going to end up with anything positive. If each of those aggrieved persuades just 1 friend to support fascism (for whatever reason) their leaders will sudden go from outsiders to a comfortable majority which they’ll merrily use to establish dictatorship just as they have done elsewhere whenever they have received a mandate to do so.
You really want the 18-19% of votes for Farage to count for something?!
Yes. Obviously I would prefer for him not to get the votes but I am not really a fan of effectively disenfranchising 20 of the voters just because I dont like their choice.
He is getting support for a reason and so rather than pretending it isnt happening the other parties should take on his claims and explain a)why his solutions are crap and b)provide alternatives.
The betting scandal has got nothing to do with the money, it’s about integrity – or is that not a trait you care about?
This ^^.
It's effectively insider trading. The reason the money is a relatively small amount is just because Tories are cheap on everything but equally can't pass up the opportunity to grift a bit.
Honestly, this Government is a dream come true for any company or oligarch or foreign power wanting to buy a bit of influence or do a bit of blackmail. It costs them pennies.
Do you really think denying representation to 1in 5 people
Your MP is still your representative even if you didn't vote for them.
In theory. In practice mine has blocked me on all channels, and doesn't reply to emails... when my questions were polite and not aligned or against any particular political party. When we had MEPs, I always had one that I voted for, and who engaged with those who voted for them. With FPTP huge numbers of people can simply be ignored by their "representative" if they get the impression you're not one of "their" voters. Of course our MP is probably one of the worst ones, and there will be MPs of all parties who do a much better job of representing, speaking for, and acting for all their constituents, not just those who support them and their party. But the system means they really don't have to.
The Tate endorsing him thing is scary, he's got a huge following, is openly racist & mysoginist (his twitter stream is vile)
Farage & Reforms use of tiktok is very worrying, they will be poisoning a lot of young minds