[Closed] Tottenham Riots

it ant a interesting thread its just a load of guardian readers ranting on about how crime is caused by peoples social problems rather than them just being stupid scum.

People are also allowed to have opinions you don't agree with - win them over with a cronstruction statement (like above) rather than just deriding as "dail mail".

I've just seen it all before many times on here, can't always be arsed trying to argue constructively. I just find it particularly abhorrent for all the middle-class IT managers on here to be slating people as scum as if we all had the same choices/opportunities in life.

edit: oh look it's ilovemygears doing exactly that (*looks for the killfile plugin thread)

Also, does anyone remember how after the Charles De Menezes case (remember him? killed by police for 'crime of looking a bit dark-skinned') the police deliberately leaked misleading information to try and make their actions look more justified. So their accounts cannot necessarily be trusted and it's no wonder people feel angry/disillusioned with the police.

i want to live in a country were criminals are treated like the filth they are rather than pampered by the liberal elite

Re: Elfin.

I don't see how conflating the decisions of World War 2 leaders fighting to save the UK and the rest of the world from Nazism, with the life of a dead drug salesman is relevant?

I assume that the third photo is of someone I don't recognise from that period rather than from the previous World War which was fought for entirely different reasons because otherwise that would be another illogical pairing that makes no sense.

The methods were messy and arguably innapropriate, but we are no longer in the position of risking life in a slave labour camp for disagreeing with A Great Leader of some sort.

I take your point about the entitlement of relatives to commemorate the dead drug salesman, but if others are doing it, it raises the question of the local culture and whether or not it's a "bad" one that needs turning around.

However, many rich and famous people have lived a life of drug addiction without the attendant opprobrium that comes from those in the fortunate position of being able to be self-righteous.

Don't think I'd like to live there, though. In fact, I'd probably do my best to get out of the *expletive deleted*hole as soon as I could for somewhere like - ooh I dunno, where I am now...

i want to live in a country were criminals are treated like the filth they are rather than pampered by the liberal elite

In your dream fascist society people as stupid as you would probably be sterilised, so it's not all bad I suppose.

So, tell me why exactly a Human Being with family and friends shouldnt have any form of memorial to them?

Hi Elfin - because it reinforces a negative image to a young vunerable audiance and appears to turn the victim into a hero not the villain he was.

His death should of course be grieved by family and friends in private, not marked with celebration on our streets.

Just my opinion of course.

M

Also, does anyone remember how after the Charles De Menezes case (remember him? killed by police for 'crime of looking a bit dark-skinned) the police deliberately leaked misleading information to try and make their actions look more justified.

And how just after Ian Tomlinson was killed, the police released a statement claiming there was no CCTV footage available. They soon had to backtrack when all the independent witness cam footage turned up though...

Millions of pounds has bin spent on the investigation into the murder of PC Kieth Blakelock. Three men were framed by corrupt poliice officers, and sent to jail for a crime they did not commit. [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Roach ]Yet there has still bin no official enquiry into the death of Colin Roach.[/url]

No surprise then, that many people (including nice respectable White Middle Class folk) mistrust and resent the police.

grum - Member
i want to live in a country were criminals are treated like the filth they are rather than pampered by the liberal elite
In your dream fascist society people as stupid as you would probably be sterilised, so it's not all bad I

i mean even in the USA they know how to treat criminals, and that ant no fascist country. Yes i expect you prefer to live in a country were the criminal has more rights than the victim,

No surprise then, that many people (including nice respectable White Middle Class folk) mistrust and resent the police.

Quite.

i mean even in the USA they know how to treat criminals, and that ant no fascist country. Yes i expect you prefer to live in a country were the criminal has more rights than the victim,

If you are suggesting that the US has an ideal criminal justice system then....well....oh....what's the point.

i mean even in the USA they know how to treat criminals,

His death should of course be grieved by family and friends in private, not marked with celebration on our streets.

Maybe they want to celebrate the positive aspect of his life, and what he meant to them. He wasn't born a drug dealer...

And who are you to tell others how they should or shouldn't mark the passing of someone they loved?

As I've pointed out; plenty of people who have done far, far worse are immortalised in statues, paintings etc...

it ant a interesting thread its just a load of guardian readers ranting on about how crime is caused by peoples social problems rather than them just being stupid scum.

[b]You[/b] really are quite exceptionally stupid aren't you? I've spoken to things with tails that were less stupid.

i mean even in the USA they know how to treat criminals, and that ant no fascist country.

Yes, and their strict approach is so successful that there is no crime there at all now.

Jamie - Member
i mean even in the USA they know how to treat criminals, and that ant no fascist country. Yes i expect you prefer to live in a country were the criminal has more rights than the victim,
If you are suggesting that the US has an ideal criminal justice system then....well....oh....

im just saying that for instance if you kill a child you going to fry, if you shot some one for drugs you going to spend the rest of you life locked up. criminals are considered to be shit, not like hear were they have human rights, **** that brake in to my house and im going to kill you! life should mean life and killing a child should mean death!

You really are quite exceptionally stupid aren't you? I've spoken to things with tails that were less stupid.

😆

That's made me laugh so hard I almost ended up choking...

i mean even in the USA they know how to treat criminals

No one is going to top that today.

Have a banana, in fact have several

[img] [/img]

Just out curiosity Elfin(because it's getting off topic) would you be happy, nay celebrate in photo, if someone who disagreed with this drug dealer's life choices defiled/added pithy visual commentary to his "memorial" like the one of Churchill above?

yossarian - Member
it ant a interesting thread its just a load of guardian readers ranting on about how crime is caused by peoples social problems rather than them just being stupid scum.
You really are quite exceptionally stupid aren't you? I've spoken to things with tails that were less stupid.

are you geting mad....i think you are...

It's always interesting to see what the world looks like to those who think that there are simple (usually, in this case, violent and repressive) solutions to hugely complicated problems, so I think "ilovemygears" contributions are valuable as a glimpse into the one-dimensional world of the sorrowfully intellectually challenged amongst us. 😉

Was the guy who was killed entirely to blame and was his death the only way to end that particular incident - probably not.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Guy probably had a gun on him, but there was probably a copper with an itchy trigger finger involved somewhere along the line.

If the guy had a gun on him and based on the fact that it was an intelligence led operation and a gun was recovered it seems this is the case, there was probably little room for manouvre to end it differently - the only variable being if the guy put's the gun down or lifts it up when stopped.

If a gun is being carried there are tremendous restrictions on what you can do to end the situation. One cannot let guns "run" who knows if it was going to be used on a member of the public, disapear back in to the "underworld" to be used again and you cannot front the carrier without armed officers. As regards police with itchy fingers this indicates you have no experience in this sort of work, AFO's are not that sort of officer, that's why they've got the guns.

Tragic end for the guy but when it comes down to it in an armed stop if you don't put the gun down and comply it doesn't end well, it should also be added that this is a very rare occurence given the amount of armed stops in London alone.

Wun...

Bah! Foiled by Woppit, no less!!! 😡

Just out curiosity Elfin(because it's getting off topic) would you be happy, nay celebrate in photo, if someone who disagreed with this drug dealer's life choices defiled/added pithy visual commentary to his "memorial"?

Well, as it would be in a public place, then I spose they would be free to make their own statement too. Might not be seen in the best possible taste, but there you go.

god people are **** stupid gun crime is our of control buy when they do some thing about if they get shit...that guy was prepared to live by the gun, so its only right he died by the gun..

god people are **** stupid gun crime is our of control

Yes, we need to be more like America, where there is no gun crime.

Bah! Foiled by Woppit, no less!!!

Again... 8)

I am following "grum's" attempt to introduce the world of evidence-based logical inference to "iloveallmygears".

I wouldn't bet on the penny dropping through the noise of "..gears's" nail hammering, though...

no we need to have a country were criminals are harshly punished for serious crimes, they are not at the moment! People need to see that crime does not pay,

@Kilo

very well said

ilovemygears, I think that Stefan Ivan Kiszko or Gilbert "Danny" McNamee, among others, might disagree with your over simplistic ideas of justice.

And who are you to tell others how they should or shouldn't mark the passing of someone they loved?

Dude, as I said, just my opinion. It was my community, I served it loyally fof over 10th years, working the streets, treating all as they wished to be treated. It's a complex borough with complex problems. Roadside shrines to heroin dealers was just more nails in the coffin for me and I've moved out after 40 years in the surrounding areas. The area needs more positive role models and examples to grab the kids attentions and give them visions to aspire to. Not to grow up thinking its ok to die young in a life of crime and be immortalised on a street wall somewhere.

As regards police with itchy fingers this indicates you have no experience in this sort of work

What kind of police was it that shot Charles De Menezes?

I am following "grum's" attempt to introduce the world of evidence-based logical inference to "iloveallmygears".

People need to see that crime does not pay

are criminals charity workers then..... or something ?

As regards police with itchy fingers this indicates you have no experience in this sort of work

What kind of police was it that shot Charles De Menezes?

grum - Wether you beleive this or not, it was not actually a police officer involved - regardless of what the media says.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Waldorf_shooting ]This crim[/url] certainly won't be re-offending, will he?

no we need to have a country were criminals are harshly punished for serious crimes, they are not at the moment! People need to see that crime does not pay

ILMG, we need to get together and work on a manifesto!

As for my comments being taken as racist, I'm just severley intolerant of Tw**s and those who make excuses for tw***ish behaviour.

Stefan Ivan Kiszko
if he wasn't in the country illegal he wouldn't have been shot. and if he was a suicide bomber and he was not shot every one would complane..

Gilbert "Danny" McNamee

Despite quashing McNamee's conviction, the appeal judges stated, “The Crown makes a strong case that the appellant [McNamee] was guilty of a conspiracy to cause explosions.”

ILMG, we need to get together and work on a manifesto!

grum - Wether you beleive this or not, it was not actually a police officer involved - regardless of what the media says.

Eh? Who was it then? In the official inquest they talked to a Police Officer known as 'C12' from CO19

CO19 is the branch name given to the Specialist Firearm Command branch of the Metropolitan Police Service that provides firearms-related support to our unarmed colleagues.

Was he lying?

I'm just severley intolerant of Tw**s

The self-loathing is palpable.

Houns - Member
Racist?!?? Are Chav scum a race now?

yes they are if you read the guardian!

Hello, iloveallmygears.

You expressed admiration for the way the United States system of criminal law works.

What do you think of grum's point that it doesn't actually seem to be preventing the crimes that have you so exercised?

As it is self-evidently not working, why do you admire it so much?

Hello, iloveallmygears.

You expressed admiration for the way the United States system of criminal law works.

What do you think of grum's point that it doesn't actually seem to be preventing the crimes that have you so exercised?

@grum - there are other, both military, and government organisations that deal with terrorism threats on UK soil.

I'll let you have that one Woppit, it being a Sunday an' all. 🙂

I'm off for a pub lunch.

Enjoy.

no i just expressed my view that putting murders to death or locking them away for ever stops them re offending, i didnt comment the rest of the system,

Ah, I see. And how would you prevent those who murder as a first offence from doing it? The threat of life imprisonment or execution doesn't seem to work.

It is interesting that, given the (some might say) "luxurious" conditions in which Norwegian killers are evidently imprisoned, that the re-offending rate in Norway is miniscule compared to our own, despite the harsh conditions in which our (and the American) prisoners ar kept, don't you think?

Mr Woppit - Member
no i just expressed my view that putting murders to death or locking them away for ever stops them re offending, i didnt comment the rest of the system,
Ah, I see. And how would you prevent those who murder as a first offence from doing it? The threat of life imprisonment or execution doesn't seem to work.

well it would ****ing well put me of!

@grum - there are other, both military, and government organisations that deal with terrorism threats on UK soil.

Maybe so, but it was a police officer that shot him, as part of a police operation (which was then investigated by the IPCC) so you were completely wrong to say this:

it was not actually a police officer involved

Unless you have some special secret knowledge that has been covered up?

well it would **** well put me of!

Yes of course, but you are a rather small sample for the purposes of evidence-based analysis, don't you think?

Mr Woppit - Member
It is interesting that, given the (some might say) "luxurious" conditions in which Norwegian killers are evidently imprisoned, that the re-offending rate in Norway is miniscule compared to our own, despite the harsh conditions in which our prisoners ar kept, don't you think?

thats as they like sending people to mental hospitals instead http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19199121

So, instead of punishing people who may very well be motivated into comitting their crimes by being disturbed (as in the recent obvious example), the Norwegians prefer to try and help them with therapy. Seems very non-judgemental to me. Hardly a punishment, I would have thought.

Unlike the American example, given the results, this might be the way forward.

if you want to believe that good for you, but its not true.. 🙁 Hospital force drugs upon these people, there not criminals there ill, the USSR used to use this tacit to stop crime as well!

Do you have evidence that Norwegian patients are having drugs "forced" upon them?

And if they are - are these "bad" drugs that will not help?

Your sudden concern for maltreated criminals is remarkable, given that just a few posts ago, you were wanting to kill them...

Mr Woppit - Member
Do you have evidence that Norwegian patients are having drugs "forced" upon them?

And if they are - are these "bad" drugs that will not help?

Just waiting for this sudden downpour to stop, so's I can actually go out... 🙄

ILMG v Woppit.

Good luck et bon chance, ILMG....

On the BBC this morning, I saw a man trying to shout over the local MP calling for 'Justice'. Would somebody please explain what he wanted?

A known serious criminal carrying a gun was shot dead by Police in what seems like an exchange of fire. The whole incident will now be subject to intense scrutiny by the IPCA. If that's not justice I don't know what is.

As much as people would love to believe that the Police shot without cause, the officer concerned must have had just reason to believe he was in danger. Think of the consequences to him professionally and personally now that he has to live with killing somebody.

This isn't a case of racism, or any form of discrimination other than a criminal getting what was coming his way. How may of his victims had their cases so strongly supported? What about 'justice' for them.

I don't mean to suggest that he deserved to have been killed, but he was free in the community rather than behind bars. His victims didn't have such freedom from his crimes.

In our efforts to remain PC, we do seem to have tipped the balance somewhat towards the rights of the perpetrator rather than the victim.

I dearly hope that some of the comments on both sides of the argument are trolling.

I would love Elfin to explain how Churchill is responsible for genocide?

I would love Elfin to explain how Churchill is responsible for genocide?

neninja - Member

I dearly hope that some of the comments on both sides of the argument are trolling.

Elfinsafety - Member

Soz to disappoint, but nope, not a troll at all.

Apparently not, in at least one case...

I would love Elfin to explain how Churchill is responsible for genocide?

Here's something for you to be going on with:

http://www.countercurrents.org/polya230109.htm

Oh ffs STOP BLOODY RAINING!!!!! 😡

Elfinsafety - Member
I would love Elfin to explain how Churchill is responsible for genocide?
Here's something for you to be going on with:

http://www.countercurrents.org/polya230109.htm

Oh ffs STOP BLOODY RAINING!!!!!

yes history is just like that.....

From a comment on Teh Grauniad;

Last night I was so angry with people who choose this way to destroy my community. I live in Tottenham and I have been sick of the sneery ways that people regard us. Some of the 'twitter jokes' last night were really really sad and almost broke my heart with the way that some people thought this was a big joke or that Tottenham isn't 'worth saving'.

There are a lot of very good people here. The looting wasn't a part of the demonstration. People came from all over London to 'join in' and the community I live in has been ruined.
Now, beyond the anger, I'm sad, desperately sad.
This wasn't just about a policing, this was about mindless violence and aggression by disaffected and alienated youth and not just in Tottenham.
Meanwhile the people I know, the shops I visit, my neighbours have had their lives ripped apart and the community which is wracked by poverty and joblessness is further labeled and further disadvantaged.
I don't want people to think that Tottenham is a hopeless place. It is my home and my community and I love living here but I really truly despise people who have destroyed it.

Sums it up for me.

Ilovemygears you say the death penalty would stop you committing crime. Do not the liberal wishy washy punishments in this country have the same effect on you? or is there something you need to confess to the group?

Maybe they want to celebrate the positive aspect of his life, and what he meant to them. He wasn't born a drug dealer...

Oh you silly, silly naive relativist; sadly I've known, lived with, and watched junkies die their sordid, sad lives. Dealers are parasitic scum living off their own communities and should not be mourned for a minute. "Positive aspect of his life." **** that, I can only imagine you're still grooving to your Gary Glitter discs and bemoaning the cruelty of all those nasty judgemental types.

HeathenWoods - Member
Maybe they want to celebrate the positive aspect of his life, and what he meant to them. He wasn't born a drug dealer...
Oh you silly, silly naive relativist; sadly I've known, lived with, and watched junkies die their sordid, sad lives. Dealers are parasitic scum living off their own communities and should not be mourned for a minute. "Positive aspect of his life." **** that, I can only imagine you're still grooving to your Gary Glitter discs and bemoaning the cruelty of all those nasty judgemental types.

now that hit several nails on the head very hard all at once!

cfhs quote summed it up

i lived in north london for a while and worked with kids from haringey and tottenham, some of them were from nice middle class families some from not so nice situations all of them were great kids,
only as they got older they became more dissafected, as said before lack of good role models and desperately underfinded an innefectual social services (baby p was just down the road too) mean that the kids from the crappier parts realise that they wont be going to uni, they wont be going on holiday this year, they wont be driving a nice audi when they turn 17, tehy wont be getting an ipad for xmas etc etc

the real tragedy here is that such a large part of the richest city in the country is so desperately poor,

thats the real reason for this, poverty- 30 years on from the last tottenham riots there is an even bigger gap between these kids and the children of the city boys whos sky scrapers they can see from their tower blocks or ally pally

i lived in north london for a while and worked with kids from haringey and tottenham, some of them were from nice middle class families some from not so nice situations all of them were great kids,
only as they got older they became more dissafected, as said before lack of good role models and desperately underfinded an innefectual social services (baby p was just down the road too) mean that the kids from the crappier parts realise that they wont be going to uni, they wont be going on holiday this year, they wont be driving a nice audi when they turn 17, tehy wont be getting an ipad for xmas etc etc

Oh God, I wish I hadn't started this now.
Not the thread- the riot
It was me you see 😀

and fwiw heres someone trying to make a difference in tottenham
[url= http://www.thetrax.co.uk/ ]http://www.thetrax.co.uk/[/url]

that's not a treason to be a criminal, lots of very rich people started of with nowt, they need a quality eduction provided by the state. Class dosent effect youre IQ.

or your ability to spell?

kimbers - I think you are right but what is that makes these disaffected & disadvantaged youths think they can behave like this when the ones I have worked with in Africa are the most positive, upbeat and honest people I've met? And the kids in Swaziland could show the Tottenham youth what poor really looks like - owning a pair of shoes and eating more than a bowl of maize once a day are quite unrealistic goals for some these kids yet they are still such upstanding individuals (in a society with more corrupton within the police et al and reasons for disaffection than we could even dream of here). I guess it's the geographic immediacy of wealth in their faces that makes them as they are or the delusions we roll out about all being equal with equal chances that get found out, or just some seriously warped western values shown at their most ugly.

kimbers - Member
that's not a treason to be a criminal, lots of very rich people started of with nowt, they need a quality eduction provided by the state. Class dosent effect youre IQ.
or your ability to spell?

Nobodys actually managed to say, where Boris is, and all the members ofthe governmeet, along with cameroon and the the other one.

Oh and tomorrow we will have the stock market crashing, along with more copy cat rioting/looting/wealth realignment going on.

Panic on the streets of London

hopefully it will continue to rain here in North London, the rioters won't want to get their new kicks wet

hopefully it will continue to rain here in North London, the rioters won't want to get their new kicks wet

That's got to be one of the most sensible comments on this thread so far.. 8)

kimbers - I think you are right but what is that makes these disaffected & disadvantaged youths think they can behave like this when the ones I have worked with in Africa are the most positive, upbeat and honest people I've met? And the kids in Swaziland could show the Tottenham youth what poor really looks like - owning a pair of shoes and eating more than a bowl of maize once a day are quite unrealistic goals for some these kids yet they are still such upstanding individuals (in a society with more corrupton within the police et al and reasons for disaffection than we could even dream of here).

Um, S Africa is one of the most violent countries in the world. But perhaps the kids you worked with were less exposed to the constant bombardment of advertising that suggests your worth is closely tied to how shiny/expensive your new trainers are?

As above though, it's not just absolute poverty - relative poverty causes all sorts of social problems, and not just for the 'envious' poorer people. And the gap between rich and poor (and the rate by which it increases) in this country is getting bigger and bigger all the time.

exactly if i can make it any one can

You've 'made it'? God help us.