[Closed] The second coming

We already ticked that demographic box with god.

(-:

Are you saying God is a woman ?? How do you explain the beard then ??

How do you explain the beard then ??

Maybe she didn't shave? Probably wanted to ride a singlespeed and blend in on STW.

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If god isn't a woman, how do you explain the placement of testicles ?

I don't know any mormons.

I know quite a few morons

From my understanding of History (Classics Degree), people didn't believe Jesus (if he even existed) was the first coming. That was all made up and written down many years later. Or so the documentary evidence shows. But I imagine that folk that buy the whole Big White Man in the Sky have no truck with actual verifiable facts so it doesn't really matter.

Can you give some references to the documentary evidence? I had been taught differently, from a secular historian, that Jesus was identified by the apostles and many of the people he met as the Messiah (the first coming).

There was a time lag in the writing of the gospels because the apostles were starting to die out and they wanted to record their experience of Jesus to share with future generations; before this they could quite simply meet people and tell them face to face. So the timelag between the content of the gospels and their composition does not necessarily suggest a period of conspiracy, in the interim of which it was retrospectively decided that Jesus was the Messiah.

Miracles aren't hard to come by; I've seen David Blaine walk on water and essentially 'rise from the dead', and Derren Brown did a whole series on it ("Messiah").

Aren't you confusing miracles with 'magic'/illusion/trickery ... ?

I rather suspect that that was exactly his point...

From my understanding of History (Classics Degree), people didn't believe Jesus (if he even existed) was the first coming.

I think you'll find that there is masses of evidence to verify that Jesus did exist (and not just Christian writings) ... whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is an entirely different matter.

There's a book written by a trained lawyer who was also (formerly) an atheist, who set out to disprove Jesus & his claims using his legal training ... by the end of it, in the face of all the evidence, he'd convinced himself the complete opposite beyond any doubt.

If I can find/remember the details I'll post them.

I don't think going to Church would help Cougar since he's already sceptical. You have to want to believe it and make the "[i][u][b]leap of faith[/b][/u][/i]"

This leap of faith means that normal logic is replaced by the smug fact that you are right and to explain it just demeans everyone.

Aren't you confusing miracles with 'magic'/illusion/trickery ... ?

How do we tell the difference?

He's already here and works at Lindt...how else do you explain the cold chocolate inside those little balls?

The only problem with this concept is that somethng will not arrive for a second time that has not been here at least once before.

jesus is a myth.

Hey Wopptit .... stop peaching.... 🙄

How do we tell the difference?

I think it was arthur c clarke (correct em if I'm wrong) who said " any significantly advanced technolgy is indistinguishable from magic"

edit found it [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws ] there are some great quotes on that wiki link..

It may be an echo of a statement in a 1942 story by Leigh Brackett: "Witchcraft to the ignorant, .... Simple science to the learned".[2] Even earlier examples of this sentiment may be found in Wild Talents by author Charles Fort where he makes the statement: "...a performance that may some day be considered understandable, but that, in these primitive times, so transcends what is said to be the known that it is what I mean by magic."

I followed an inspiring woman to our leaders HQ but still our leaders decided to 'tax' our young through the nose.

I camped on the steps of the church but I didn't witness the moneylenders kicked out.

I helped occupy academic halls but even the enlightened academics failed to stand up against the system when threatened with discluding their students from the students loans system.

We shut down businesses over and over that refused to play by our financial rules, and we're still waiting for our leaders to do something about it even though there is evidence that shows they breached even the most minimal rules put in place to tick boxes.

My friends are racially profiled on the streets by public servants who curse and beat them, smash up their property and bear false witness.

Tried to spread the word of the vulnerable having their care withdrawn, and money, and left to die faster, but the public spat curses at us in misunderstanding and selfishness.

I'm an atheist, but In a dark and dusty corner of my mind I sometimes wonder if the world needs a messiah to come in and sacrifice himself to make changes because there's so much wrong in society today and that apathetic society is letting the school bullies take their lunch money every day without resistance.

Ro5ey - Member
Would you like to go to church.. ?

As a clear thinking, intellegent, open minded adult... who seems genuinely interested... why not give it a go? For a decent length of time though, say 6 months?

What have you got to lose?

The Methodist church, with which my family are involved, with was very well-meaning, egalitarian, charitable and mainly very pleasant (albeit with an oddball obsessive sub-cult of the congregation who, I think, eventually all left for a Pentecostal group). The problem for me is that it is all based on nothing more substantial than 'faith'.

In comparison,(in my limited experience) the RC church seems very peculiar to me with its patriarchal, hierarchical system.

Having only occasionally been to Church in the past few years(family occasions), the whole 'worship' thing now seems very alien to me.

Hello Ro5ey.

Interesting comment. If you dislike "preaching" so much, I find it odd that you want to subject Cougar to five months of it...

jesus is not a real historical character. It's just a story. That's not preaching, it's just a bit of information for you to process.

Mr Destructo, I see your point but can't agree entirely. Modern society (in the UK at least) is pretty good, we have many public services and live safe, healthy reasonably free lives. There are issues, but they are really only "the school bullies taking our lunch money" and most of this is down to apathy as we are mostly satisfied. We have the tools to kick Camerons and the rest of thems backsides but most of us can't be arsed.

@Aristotle I know Methodists round here who like to put their "hands on" for prayer sessions to heal people. My family are Roman Catholic and frankly I think they'd class that as witchcraft.

When they were enthusiastic about an asbestos sufferer who suddenly got better after their "involvement" I discussed it with my boss, practically the best asbestos solicitor in the whole of Yorkshire and he said that frequently you get better, for a while, a year or so, then it comes back with a vengeance and ravages and kills you. A basic knowledge of the path of this industrial disease would have been in order here.

My family are Roman Catholic and frankly I think they'd class that as witchcraft.

The irony is so thick you could put it in a sandwich.

mrdestructo - Member

@Aristotle I know Methodists round here who like to put their "hands on" for prayer sessions to heal people. My family are Roman Catholic and frankly I think they'd class that as witchcraft.

The vast majority of the Methodist people were quiet, respectable, charitable Middle-England folk not into that kind of thing, but it does strikes me that people can do whatever they like "in the name of <their> god".

I was just pointing out the differences I'd noticed. I'm not intending to provoke sectarianism.

I don't believe in any of it....

Yeah ... just re-read that particular post... you may well be right.

My response was clouded by previous post of yours and I was being ironic.

jesus is not a real historical character. It's just a story

Ummm, I don't think that's true and there is documentary evidence to prove he existed during the time of the bible stories.

That doesn't necessarily mean he was the son of god, however he was definitely a real historical character. Unless people are now disputing the Roman texts, as they haven't seen/read them or personally deciphered the language?

Oh O.K.

I suppose I'll do this again, then...

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Ummm, I don't think that's true and there is documentary evidence to prove he existed during the time of the bible stories

actually I think the documentary evidence was all written some time after jesus died and is probably defined as hearsay rather than first hand accounts. I'm not saying he did not exist as a human person, as a militant atheist I am happy to believe he was a real person (as it has no bearing on his supernatural status) but the evidence is pretty poor actually. [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus ]have a read of this , all the way through and follow the links, then decide if you are convinced he did exist..[/url]

My wife's family are all Catholics...I sometimes have to go along on a Sunday morning on special occasions, none of it's rubbed off on me though.

It seems to me that you get different types of people at church...loosely based on a scale of enthusiasm;

1. The priest
2. People who do readings
3. People in the choir
4. People who have their own book and sit right at the front
5. Irish Travellers
6. People who arrive on time and leave once it's all finished
7. People who make their kids be altar servers
8. People who arrive 10 minutes late, take mass, and leave half way through
9. People who let their kids run riot, chat to their friends while it's all going on, and leave halfway through without bothering with mass

I haven't witnessed any witchcraft, but perhaps they save that for when I'm not there.

McHamish - Member

I haven't witnessed any witchcraft, but perhaps they save that for when I'm not there.

You are either a "9)" or you must have nodded-off for the bit when the priest turned the bread and wine into the [i]actual[/i] flesh and blood of Jesus 😉

I knock around in a community that is mixed, but has plenty of pagans, have been present (and perhaps part of) their ceremonies. Not just handfastings, but ceremonies in the moonlight. There was once that nekkid dough rolling ceremony in the heart of the Dales after the ovens were dug into the side of a hill, but since the girl was about 19 and I felt more uncomfortable than riding up on some doggers I wandered off. I do know someone who identifies as a Pendle Witch.

I also know some 'plastic' pagans who were inspired into the religion by Buffy and like to burn things, point ickle knives and lay their crystals at stone circles. I had to point out the modern stone circle in the park they'd been using was a modern art feature and the only power lines around there were the ones running overhead 🙂 God, the things I put up with to get laid!

Actually, I've changed my mind.

I think the priest might be 2nd on the list with people who do readings, have their own book and say grace before meals as number one.

1. People who do readings, have their own book and say grace before meals
2. The priest
3. People who do readings
4. People in the choir
5. People who have their own book and sit right at the front
6. Irish Travellers
7. People who arrive on time and leave once it's all finished
8. People who make their kids be altar servers
9. People who arrive 10 minutes late, take mass, and leave half way through
10. People who let their kids run riot, chat to their friends while it's all going on, and leave halfway through without bothering with mass

I went to a family meal once and the priest was also there...I was sat next to him and when someone in the family (who wasn't Catholic - one of the really enthusiastic churches) started saying grace, me and the priest looked at each other, each with a mouthful of food, and both quietly put our knife and fork down.

You are either a "9)" or you must have nodded-off for the bit when the priest turned the bread and wine into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus

As far as I undersstadn it, Catholics don't actually believe that it's the actual flesh and blood of jebus, they believe it 'represents' his flesh and blood.

You might want to do some research around Sai Baba. Quite interesting.

Machamish, it was our Priest, Father Reilly, who helped me to atheism when I started asking all these questions as an altar boy. I'm convinced he didn't believe in god either...

One of the problem with the internet is everyone gets an opinion, for example this person believes he did exist.

And his research seems to be fairly comprehensive.

http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html

Personally, I don't believe much of what's on Wikipedia, so that's not really a source worth considering

I was going to put altar boys on the list near the bottom...some of them seem to be the least enthusiastic, and look really grumpy while they're following the priest about.

McHamish - Member
As far as I undersstadn it, Catholics don't actually believe that it's the actual flesh and blood of jebus, they believe it 'represents' his flesh and blood.

Heresy!!!! Holy moly, are you some sort of protestant?

[url= http://www.gotquestions.org/transubstantiation.html ]Transubstantiation[/url]

McHamish - Member
I was going to put altar boys on the list near the bottom

Very topical.

Oh. I stand corrected.

Admitedly, I don't really pay any attention when I have to go to Church or when my Wife's parents talk to me about religion.

Thanks for the link.

Machamish, I enjoyed the altar boy thing, we had a good laugh taking the piss out of the priest, fantasizing about the girls in the front row, giggling out loud after interminable silences...

Richc, did you read the wikipedia link and not the frothing atheist link that woppit put up? Althought they both lead to the same conclusion, the wiki link seemed more rigorous. Anyway as I said I am happy to concede that a man called jesus existed an claimed to be the son of god. He was either stupid, mentally ill, disingenuous or just misinformed.

edit richc also your link offers nothing new, all the records come from writings after his death..

Very topical.

Ha...didn't notice that.

Perhaps 'Americans' should also be added to the list, some of those would probably be placed above God in terms of enthusiasm for believing in god.

It should be more difficult than it is to sing 'hallelujah' in a manner that sounds like your dog's just died.

I think the priest might be 2nd on the list

Cougar has brought up a proper dichotomy. I reckon most theists I know would be highly sceptical of anyone claiming to be the son of god. Also any miracles performed would be met with "well it must be a trick"

I think you'll find that there is masses of evidence to verify that Jesus did exist

I'd be interested to see this.

I don't think going to Church would help Cougar since he's already sceptical.

I'm not sure as I've ever liked the word 'sceptical'. There can be a negative undertone to it which some people see as a closed mind. 'Critical thinking' is perhaps more accurate. I'm not predisposed to dismissing ideas out of hand, I simply like to verify what I'm being told.

When I was younger, I had a subscription to The Unexplained magazine (anyone else remember that?). I hoovered it up, the idea that there was all this [i]stuff[/i] out there that we didn't really understand was absolutely fascinating to me.

Years later, older and with an Internet connection, I revisited all this stuff. Ghosts, yetis, SHC, Kirlian photography, crop circles, ball lightning, levitation, phsycics, telekinesis, the works. I learned how it all worked (or didn't), and what was actually 'unexplained' and what actually bobbins.

I learned that it's important not to automatically believe everything you hear or read. By nature of emails telling me that Bill Gates was going to send me to Disneyland, there was an undetectable virus going around that would my computer become self-aware and create robot assassins, and if I flash my headlights at someone I'm going to wake up without my kidneys, I learned about things like False Authority Syndrome and became very well versed (and fascinated) with urban myths. Quick show of hands - does a duck's quack echo?

When you stop automatically absorbing all this, heh, quackery and start using your brain to process what you're being told, it's startling just how much shit we're being peddled on a daily basis. When you're rubbing pro-vitamin B5 into your scalp, has what's beneath your scalp ever wondered what it does for your hair? Mine has(*).

But when something new crops up, I think, "oh, really?" and look into it. If it turns out to be true then I've learned something new, if it turns out to be false or unproven or unlikely then at least I can perhaps help others to think critically about it. Most people tend to be interested when misconceptions are explained (religion being the obvious exception here).

Does that make me a sceptic? Seems a strange label for what, surely, should be what everyone is doing.

(* - the answer, incidentally, is nothing at all. Pro-vitamins get turned into vitamins in the gut, the only thing benefiting when you rub it on your head is gloop-sellers' wallets. Sounds good and sciencey though, right?)

Anyway as I said I am happy to concede that a man called jesus existed an claimed to be the son of god. He was either stupid, mentally ill, disingenuous or just misinformed.

Fair enough, I am not sure on how you decided on him being stupid, mentally ill, disingenuous or just misinformed though, as the documentary evidence merely confirms his existence and not much more.

With your amazing insight you should work for the NHS as you could save the country a fortune with your medical diagnosis's without even having to speak to, or even see the patient.....

You seem to be massively sceptical of everything, bar your own self perceived awesomeness.....