[Closed] The European experiment is over.

Best I spend my pile of Euros then!

Next year they will discuss it and absolutely no references or sourcing to anyone German at all
Is this usual for City AM ?

Yes, I think the Eurozone experiment was a big mistake! We don't need a common currency for trading between European countries. Fluctuations in currency rates are a bit of a pain, but not enabling individual countries to set their own interest rates has been a disaster.

As EU tax payers not part of the Eurozone, the UK is still supporting the failing countries in the EU. We are still part of it! Pro European people will come on here and bang on about how trade with Europe is vital to our economy, but we don't have the Euro, so why does there need to be a common country? I am not anti-Europe, i'm anti bureaucracy!

We have enough unjust disparities within our own backyard (Scottish getting free prescriptions, no student fees etc). Then there's the basket cases of Europe that the rest of us have to pay to support; 43% of working people in Ireland don't pay any income tax whatsoever! WTF! Who does pay their share of taxes then? YOU do! Greece, Prtugal, Spain and others. All broke!

The notion of a federal Europe was commercially niaive and a total waste of money. It's also damaging to Europe's competitiveness with all the ridiculous red tape Brussels imposes on us. All we need is a chamber of commerce for the EU zone which ensures that the continent thrives as a result of inter-country trade links. Let each country govern itself, but whilst maintaining diplomatic links.

In essence the parliament in Brussels needs to be hugely cut down to size and the currency of each EU Zone country restored.

With any luck, we'll get some cheap holidays in the Eurozone when the value of that currency falls out of bed. 🙂

Your right Spongebob, but since no one votes for Euro MP's nothing will happen to change that. We moan about our MP's and the media exposed the various scandels they are involved it, but it doesnt seem to happen for the European ones.

Turkeys dont vote for Xmas, so I wont expect anything to change, unless several of the poor EU members goes bust.

True, we don't get told anything about what is happening in Brussels. I suppose out government doesn't want to ruin the illusion that they are in control.

And yes, several of the EU members would be bust if it wasn't for EU tax payers (us) bailing them out.

Like we haven't got any problems of out own!!

Can someone please explain who supports the IMF?

unless several of the poor EU members goes bust

Watch this space. Its not just the smaller economies that are basket cases. Spain defaulting could be next on the Agneda. And not even Germany has the spare resources for a bail-out if that happens.

In which case it'll all implode like a pack of cards. Thus rendering all the previous squillions poured into propping up the previous basket-cases utterly redundant

Try this then.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/nigel-farage-european-parliament-euro-game-just-who-hell-do-you-think-you-are-you-are-very-d

The European experiment is over

Come on, it's just an opinion piece from a presenter nobody's heard of. A rather fluffy and fact-free piece at that.

No, what will happen is Germany will be forced to prop up these failing economys - by invading. Its the financial equivalent of WW2.

but since no one votes for Euro MP's nothing will happen to change that

Germany invading 🙄

The European experiment is over.

I'm not sure the whistle has gone yet but it's in injury time

Two things
1 - according to the internet, next year, germany will "start to talk" about leaving the Euro. not now, not yet, but sometime in the future we can exclusively reveal. Hardly means it's all over now when for all I know that's just the financial equivelant of the Daily Mail

2 -

Yes, I think the Eurozone experiment was a big mistake!

I think the fact that the other economies of the world have been completely untroubled by global financial instability is a huge indicator that the Euro is finished.

Spongebob - Member
...We have enough unjust disparities within our own backyard (Scottish getting free prescriptions, no student fees etc).

No that's just. Our government is different from yours.

Just make sure you tell your government that's what you want.

Is the euro really a failure? Its still a lot stronger against the pound than when it was introduced so what does that say about the pound?

The mistake is in allowing the free trade of currency, this will continue to create currency "disasters" across the world, irrespective of currency. In fact the euro zone has shown that by coming together they can share the pain.

but Putin says it's more reliable than the dollar?

No that's just. Our government is different from yours.

Just make sure you tell your government that's what you want.

The devolution experiment didn't take into consideration the needs of the English. We English aren't all power brokers in high places you know. It mystifies me why there is such intolerance of the English from others in the Union. I expect it stems from what happened a few hundred years ago. Talk about being stuck in the past! What has the actions of someone in power eight generations ago got to do with anyone alive today, let along mr average living in the south of England?

Most people are just like anyone else except English people don't have a strong sense of identity, we don't seek to segregate ourselves. This "culture" thing which is so prevalent elsewhere is just divisive.

In effect, the English are now discrimated against because we are not allowed representaion, or to even make our feelings known about the clear injusticies of the devolution experiment.

But UK tax payer supports whatever your government decides. We paid a significant proportion for your expensive parliament to be set up too.

You still keep peddling this canard. The flow of money is the other way. Scottish money supports England. This is a fact.

The south east are the subsidy junkies sucking money out of the rest of the UK, Scotland is a net contributor to the UK.

Whilst some resentment is over what happened generations ago, some is over recent events where the English have asserted their dominion over Scotland and attitudes like yours - ignorant and full of bile - continue to raise hackles.

Nothing that is decided by the Scottish parliament has any cost implications for England.

As for the euro "experiment" being over.

It is not an experiment, it is remains strong and there is absolutely no chance Germany or any other country will leave it.

Just piffle

Nasty " little Englander" attitudes. Small minded and ignorant.

Spongebob - Member

"The devolution experiment didn't take into consideration the needs of the English."

It certainly did- the English have just chosen not to have a devolved English parliament. People who're unhappy about this blame the devolved parliaments for some reason, I assume because it's easier to blame someone else for your grievances.

Everyone stand back and shut up. A proper economist has arrived.

Rumour has it that Gideon has been popping round to your house for pointers TJ. Any truth in that? 😉

We need to recall some history when lookign at the European "experiement".

Britain is, rather like states like Congo, somewhat presentational in its self styling: Congo is the Deomocratic Republic of, although it is no such thing; Britain is allegedley great, in spite of an empire that finally ceased in the late 1940s.

Over the centuries, Britain has variously fought with several European states. the simple reality was that, in order to maintain otherwise naturally weak trading routes, it has been essential for Britain to ensure that no other nation within Europe becomes too strong.

So, the same game applies now, though nations tend to rely less on gunpowder, and more on complex economic structures.

Ergo, the "experiment" is nothing of the sort: it's just more of the same.

The south east are the subsidy junkies sucking money out of the rest of the UK, Scotland is a net contributor to the UK.

So what? You don't think the proceeds of British industry should benefit all the people of Britain, then?

Elf - I just think the truth should be told.

You still keep peddling this canard. The flow of money is the other way. Scottish money supports England. This is a fact.

The south east are the subsidy junkies sucking money out of the rest of the UK, Scotland is a net contributor to the UK.

Can you back this up TJ?

You still keep peddling this canard. The flow of money is the other way. Scottish money supports England. This is a fact

Even if it were, has it always been that way ? I doubt it, but now it suits to jump ship............

With friends like that................

Elf - I just think the truth should be told.

So do I. North Sea oil and gas is a British industry; the people of Cornwall have as much entitlement to any proceeds as anyone is Scotland. It's British oil and Gas, not Scottish. Like the Cornish fishing industry provides food for the whole nation, not just Cornish people.

Take away oil and gas from the 'Scottish' economy, and what's left? Some nasty itchy wooly jumpers, a bit of Whiskey and a few Haggises.

Your parliament was designed by a Catalan. Although I suspect he'd spent some time with some of the locals sampling the local beverages, by the looks of things:

[img] [/img]

I mean, come on; it's a bit rubbish, isn't it? And it's falling apart. And it cost what, almost eleven times the original estimate???

Look, beautiful (designed by Englishmen that's why) and built propply:

[img] [/img]

I win because picture is more beautiful.

Elf - the oil actually is Scotlands legally - same as most of the gas is Englands. The north sea oil fields are divided into Norwegian, Scottish and English zones.

Right!!! You can keep your bloody gas!! And your oil!!!! I'm in Bury at the moment TJ. And you can **** right off if you think you're having any of the proceeds from the Black Pudding Empire

[i]Elf - I just think the truth should be told.[/i]
Or a version of it..

BTW What happened to your referendum, when you were all going to have a chance to vote on the concept of embracing the economic nirvana of separating from the English parasites.
I thought you were meant to be having it tomorrow?

Scotland isn't an independent sovereign nation though. It's part of the United Kingdom. So, the proceeds should benefit everyone. Bit like the fishing and agriculture industries benefits everyone, even though the industries may be limited to specific areas.

In all honesty, even if they were to gain independence, Scots would only fight amongst themselves anyway.

[img] [/img]

Funny how the Scots have stopped going on about their 'aspirations' using what used to be constant references to

"strong independent nation states existing within a European framework"

I can't think why. But who were these two dynamic economies they were so keen to replicate.

Did they both begin with an 'I'?

Elf - the oil actually is Scotlands legally - same as most of the gas is Englands. The north sea oil fields are divided into Norwegian, Scottish and English zones.

So, if the Shetland and Orkney Isles voted for and declared independence from Scotland, you'd be happy to let them walk away with all the oil revenues I take it TJ?

Let alone the Northumbrian oil fields which you've illegally laid claim to (freedom for Northumbria, reinstate the independence of Bernicia and Deira NOW!)

IanMunro

The referendum was blocked by the unionist parties. Dunno what they are scared of.

Tory government in Westminster increases the likelihood of a win on a referendum. Scotland has not voted fora tory government since the 50s

AS for the money - its been this way since at least the 70s. The thatcher " economic revolution" was funded by scottish oil. She wasted all the money on paying people not to work

Scotland has not voted fora tory government since the 50s

Neither has Tower Hamlets. Or indeed loads of other places. Your point was?

(I'll ignore the bit about voting for your local MP rather than a government...)

So, if the Shetland and Orkney Isles voted for and declared independence from Scotland, you'd be happy to let them walk away with all the oil revenues I take it TJ?

She wasted all the money on paying people not to work

And the recent Labour government turned this into an art form.....

And the recent Labour government turned this into an art form.....

In what way, Peter?

So.... if you've never voted a Tory administration then you can opt for independence. My dream of the Peoples Republic of Mancunia could be a reality.

Just out of interest TJ, do you think that none of the wealth generated by... oh I don't know.... maybe the North West of England during the industrial revolution was ever used to finance other areas of the country?

Like Scotland for example?

Neither has Tower Hamlets.

Tower Hamlets is a borough within a city, Scotland is a country. Why are you comparing the two ?

And btw, the Houses of Parliament were built 3 times over budget, and completion date was over run by 20 years. Plus the geezer who designed them was influenced by European architecture.

Or the car industry in the Midlands? Or the Welsh mines?

One thing about petty, small-minded nationalists of any description - they are, without fail.... Thick as pig-****!!

[i]AS for the money - its been this way since at least the 70s. The thatcher " economic revolution" was funded by scottish oil. She wasted all the money on paying people not to work[/i]

Like I said, that's one version. Here's another from the Scotland Office 🙂

• If all North Sea oil revenues had been allocated to Scotland there would only
have been 9 years out of the last 27 when Scotland’s finances would have
been in surplus.
• Including all North Sea oil revenues the last year of surplus was in 1988-89
and since then there has been 18 years of annual deficits with Scotland’s
spending being greater than the tax raised in Scotland.
• Even if all oil revenues had been allocated to Scotland the total deficit would
have outweighed the total surplus by £20bn since 1980-81.
• The volatility of the oil price would have a severe impact on spending plans.
The halving of oil prices in the last year has had a dramatic effect on
estimated oil revenues suggesting a fall of nearly half from £12.9bn last year
to £6.9bn this year which would make financial planning very challenging.

Often skim read these topics, but this is very very funny!

Take away oil and gas from the 'Scottish' economy, and what's left? Some nasty itchy wooly jumpers, a bit of Whiskey and a few Haggises.

wait a minute. wasn't the houses of parliament designed by one charles barry. and wasn't he aided by augustus pugin?

pugin? that doesn't sound very english. becaue it isn't. so the houses of parliament were designed as a sort anglo french immigrant project?

Scotland is a net contributor to the UK.

is that an ongoing year by year thing? or an average over the last 5-10 years or so?

a bit of Whiskey

Binners why the anti Scottish nationalist vibe when it the view of an Englishman in Scotland ?

[img] ?v=0[/img]
To be fair, Elf. This is your Parliament, you being a Londoner, not exactly pretty, the only English region with a regional assembly. Not that most of the rest of us were offered a choice, the North East had a referendum in 2004 and said a big fat no and the idea was quickly dropped for everyone else. England generally doesn't recognise the European definition of the regions as very useful.
[img] [/img]
I for one would rather the regional governments be scrapped or full independence given, rather than have postcode lotteries on services and provision.

Tower Hamlets is a borough within a city, Scotland is a country. Why are you comparing the two ?

Because TJ was trying to make the point of 'if we haven't voted for them, why should they influence our lives' kind of thing. I thought it was a fair comparison. Tower Hamlets has been quite staunchly Labour for decades, yet we still have to suffer Tory Policy. So if Scotland wants independence, then so do I.

Actually it is a very fair comparison; Tower Hamlets is the home of Canary Wharf, which is an area where billions of pounds are generated every day. If Tower Hamlets did actually become an independent nation, and the money generated spread out amongst it's population, it would be one of the wealthiest nations on Earth. As it is, it's actually one of the most deprived boroughs in the UK, and if you consider the number of very high earners who now live here, that statistic becomes all the more staggering.

And btw, the Houses of Parliament were built 3 times over budget, and completion date was over run by 20 years. Plus the geezer who designed them was influenced by European architecture.

Doesn't matter. Better.

The thatcher " economic revolution" was funded by scottish oil. She wasted all the money on paying people not to work

Michael Foot put it more poetically by describing it as : "[i]pouring North Sea oil down the gutters of unemployment[/i]"

Binners why the anti Scottish nationalist vibe when it the view of an Englishman in Scotland ?

I just find the selective memories of imbeciles like Alex Salmond incredibly offensive and short-sited. They live in ****ing la-la land.

If Scotland had had independence, then they would have been left holding the baby for RBS during the Banking crisis.

And if that had been the case then right now, you'd be making Ireland look like Switzerland

pugin? that doesn't sound very english. becaue it isn't. so the houses of parliament were designed as a sort anglo french immigrant project?

My name is Persian/Bangladeshi. I'm English. AWN Pugin was a Londoner born and bred, same as me.

Your point was?

To be fair, Elf. This is your Parliament, you being a Londoner, not exactly pretty

No it's actually really quite nice. I like it. I'm a Londoner so my opinion trumps yours. 🙂

Tails; you like that one, innit? 😉

The ignorant anti Scottish rantings on here do make me laugh.

Why are you so scared by the prospect of a sovereign nation having self rule?

Th same folk that are anti european union are pro Uk union. A very logical position I must say. 🙄

Why are you so scared by the prospect of a sovereign nation having self rule?

You are more than welcome to it.

I notice you avoid actually providing any answers to the above comments though TJ.

Is it cos we is all, like.... anti-Scottish innit?

not sure what you question is binners but you seem a touch hysterical on this issue
You find him offensive but say he lives in swearword ga ga land - I am sure he admires the respect you show him as the elected leader of the largest party in Scotland
Re RBS who really knows I am not sure they are "scottish" apart from name but yes it would have been a problem thanks god it has not affected the Uk at all - what did you say re the tory and never had it so good last week?

Shouldn't the Regional map of Northern England been Proper North (Cumberland, Westmoorland, Northumberland and Durham) (They have a lot more incommon) then North midlands Lancashire, and Yorkshire?

Why are you so scared by the prospect of a sovereign nation having self rule?

It's nothing of the sort.

I would suggest its more in response to the kind of petulant whining of a well provided for but ultimately ungrateful little child that's stamping its feet and threatening to run away from home...

good point sod Cumbria who wants it anyway

Good point stoner when you view them like that why would they not want to stay in a union with you - cut them free then teach them a lesson??
Bet this was said about the colonies at the time they wanted freedom eh jumped up little upstarts after all we have done for them etc
Show some respect people?

The real answers are obvious. I can't be bothered with arguing with little Englander rantings. Its pointless.

For example if Scotland had been independent would the RBS have been working under the same regulatory regime and have got into so much trouble? YOur point is a total non point.

It makes me so mad, as its Andy Marry syndrome in reverse.

When he win's he's British, when he olses he's Scottish

RBS were always held up as a 'Scottish' success story. The truth of the matter is that they gt a very British bail out.

If they had been as Scottish as claimed and based in the capital of an independent state then no amount of oil or gas would be getting the Scots out of that particular hole

I was in my English, British, mother of all parliaments 2 weeks ago. Man, that place is PIMPED inside!

if Scotland had been independent would the RBS have been working under the same regulatory regime and have got into so much trouble?

well.... they (Salmond et al) were holding Icelands low-Tax 'miracle' up as a shining example. So I reckon we can assume, given their approach to banking regulation, that the whole mess would be considerably worse

For an economist TJ, you don't seem to pick up on the obvious

Why are you so scared by the prospect of a sovereign nation having self rule?

Scotland's not a Sovereign Nation.

In order to do so, Scotland would have to first declare independence (I assume some sort of referendum would be needed here), then appoint a Head of State. Then , it'd need it's own currency and all that. All sorts of political stuff.

One of the biggest problems would be how to sort out it's military. I mean, that's all been funded by British taxpayers, and I can't see the Queen letting Scotland have any troops and weapons and that. There's the delicate matter of nuclear weapons to be considered.

Cheeze, have you actually sat down and considered what a monumentally huge task it would be? And the years, perhaps even decades, of economic instability? Not to mention rival factions within Scotland itself jostling for power. What about the roles of the Churches?

See, it's all very well to bang on about independence, but Scotland has benefitted from being part of the UK. Now that there's a bit of money in oil, some people want to push all that history aside, just to enjoy the fleeting benefits of a finite supply of natural resources.

In short, Scotland would be buggered.

Best leave things as they are, eh?

Binners - brilliant - you know what the theoretical independent Scotlands policy on banking regulation would be? you are a genius.

Elf - its nothing to do with money and never has been - its a bout self determination.

TJ - I'm not guessing. Its on the record. The countries they sought to emulate - Ireland and Iceland specifically - supported the idea of LESS banking regulation and less corporation tax. This was they're economic model.

And look where it got them. There but for the grace of god......

Elf - its nothing to do with money and never has been - its a bout self determination.

Ha ha! 😆

That's one of the funniest, if not [i]the[/i] funniest, things you've ever posted on here!

'Nothing to do with money'; no 'course it's not! 😆

The funniest thing would be watching them trying to make that stupid "Scots" language (i.e. English as spoken by drunken rednecks) the offeeshil language of guvvermint.

Really? An independent Scotland would have had less banking regulation? fascinating. You are so prescient. Can you do farsight as well?

So where do you get this info about the banking regulation from? Or are you merely guessing?

its a bout self determination.

You've always been short of a bit of determination TJ. I'm seeing your point now 🙂

Living in boring conformist Scandinavia I can just say think yourselves lucky for living in the diverse, beautiful, chaotic and interesting place that the UK and British Isles are. Its a little more "soporific" living here but after travelling for 4 hours on the train from Lund to Stockholm I can say once you have seen one tree you have seen the all.

TJ is one of those proud little Englanders defending his patch. Even if it is in another part of the land. They have the same kind here in Skåne (maybe a bit more rightwing though) and with the distance of being a foreigner in another country you think WTF do they want to do that (independance for a tiddly bit of land only to get trampled by the likes of Germany)? And then you realise the main reason seems to be that some power crazed politician will get their hard on from being in charge how ever meaningless that power is.

TJ - this is from Alex Salmonds speech "Shaping Scotland future' delivered in 2008. Shortly before there was, how shall we say.... a bit of an inciednt with the economy

"Scotland looks out to an Arc of Prosperity around us. Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Finland and Denmark. All small independent nations. All stable, secure and prosperous.

Of all these nations, no example is more impressive and inspiring than Ireland. And none is more relevant to the decisions that Scotland faces today.

So I have come to Dublin to set out our aspirations for Scotland's future - how we will create a Celtic Lion economy to match the Celtic Tiger on this side of the Irish Sea.

Full transcript here:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/This-Week/Speeches/First-Minister/dublin

I couldn't tell you, in all honesty, whether he still holds these views. Perhaps you should ask him

http://www.snp.org/node/10359

Scotland can change to a better future and be part of northern Europe's arc of prosperity. We have three countries Ireland to our west, Iceland to our north and Norway to our east - all in the top six wealthiest countries in the world. In contrast devolved Scotland is in 18th place. We can join that arc of prosperity.

"But, with independence, and matching the success of Europe's small, powerhouse economies, Scots can, within a decade, enjoy greater wealth - worth £4000 for every man, woman and child in our country.

"I find it appalling that London Labour claims Scotland is uniquely unable to prosper with independence, especially as Ireland, Iceland and Norway all claimed their independence in the 20th century.

[u]"With the right pro-Scottish business policies lower tax, support for innovators and improvements to our national infrastructure[/u] and a real Scottish government, we have the potential to deliver for Scotland the same success now being enjoyed by our nearest neighbours. If they can do it, so can we."

I think we know what that particularly petulant child meant, dont you?

elf why so funny? Freedom is what the independent people/parties - what ha smoney got to do with this ?
Stoner why ,despite your contempt for the small child, do you feel the need to decide what it does?
Attitudes like this tend to enforce the view that English people are generally dismissive of the Scottish people. This tends to make them angry/annoyed and more likely to leave the union . You do your cause a dis service with your petty insults.

elf why so funny?

Because TJ's been banging on about 'Scottish' Oil for the last couple of hours, then says Scottish independence has 'nothing to do with money'. Yeah, right. 😆

Anyway, I'm bored now. Does anyone want to share ideas about Parliamentary buildings around the World?

Always thought Brazil's Congresso Nacional in Brasilia was utterly unique and really quite stunning:

[img] [/img]

Of course you can rely on the Italians to have something impressive:

[img] [/img]

This one in Budapest is stunning:

[img] [/img]

And from the huge to the really quite small, but no less significant to it's people, the Solomon Islands:

[img] [/img]

More pics of yer faves, please!

Interesting reading an irish paper last weekend and seeing the genuine sense of shame they have now, at losing their soverignty.

As one said, "sovereignty is like an old clock whose ticking you only notice when it is absent".

You do your cause a dis service with your petty insults.

And wasn't Stoner's good buddy Georgie Porgie over there a few years back singing Ireland's praises too? I'm sure there's a long list of eejits who have been to Dublin and lauded Fianna Fáil's policies who are being pilloried for it now. It's old news.

losing their soverignty

Oh FFS, you sound like my mother. They haven't lost their sovereignty, they just have to do what bigger fish tell them to do with their money for a while. The tricolour hasn't been lowered from the Dáil yet.

TandemJeremy - Member
You still keep peddling this canard. The flow of money is the other way. Scottish money supports England. This is a fact.

The south east are the subsidy junkies sucking money out of the rest of the UK, Scotland is a net contributor to the UK.

So this is not correct then? (click for bigger) Just a question, not trolling.

[url= http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2512/4127096187_f0dd3c993c_o_d.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2512/4127096187_f0dd3c993c_o_d.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Sorry but what a load of rubbish everybody from euro-sceptics to the likes of the SNP speak. The real "organisations" that are controlling your lives are not the European parliament or Brussels or Westminster but the big corporations. Just look at the Tesco thread for how "Democracy" works. Money talks.