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Organic refers to the process of treating animals humanely, minimising environmental impact and reducing the presence of synthetic chemicals in milk, and food.
AFAIK the definition of "organic" includes nothing about the humane treatment of animals or minimising environmental impact - although many vendors will (I assume) try to enforce/include those concepts too.
No organic cow can be kept indoors all year round.
which organic standard says that?
There was no text before it!
Mr Woppit - Member
Why should I?Posted 17 hours ago #
Perhaps you should read the thread properly!
You kinda did.
Crikey, how weak minded! 😯
if you listen very carefully you can hear a select few STWrs frantically googling the organic standards for cattle.
is imported 'organic' produce better or worse than home grown produce that doesnt meet the 'organic' standard, when you take into account the distribution costs and the effect on the economy?
No organic cow can be kept indoors all year round.
You really are making this up as you go along
soil assoc dairy cattle standards:
section 11
http://www.soilassociation.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=ic4qKgG2aiM%3d&tabid=353
need to graze would require cows to go outdoors
of so i parlty take my comments about organic and under roofs...
though if you read it seems that the food they eat is organic and creating an organic pasture is a means to an end, i don't think a mega dairy would be precluded from producing organic milk if welfare standards would be met and feed was organic..
also obviously basing my view on what i think farms in the uk look like:
[img] 
[/img]
You really are making this up as you go along
Nice blanket statement, care to explain why?
Nice blanket statement, care to explain why?
Have a look at this
[b][i]Can I keep organic cows in a cubicle shed?
Stalls or cubicles can be used for housing organic animals provided the cows
have free access to them and there is an adequate lungeing area. Unless
otherwise agreed with the certification body there should be 5% more cubicles
than cattle.
If you have concrete based cubicles they must be bedded or fitted with
suitable cushioned materials such as rubber mats.[/i][/b]
Perhaps you should read the thread properly!
Perhaps you should, "Mr Woppit" was repeating the final line of his earlier post just minutes before.
if you listen very carefully you can hear a select few STWrs frantically googling the organic standards for cattle.
lol, I'll admit I did check before replying - it confirmed what I already knew, "organic" has nothing to do with living standards.
[b]mega farms do not use cubicles fixed for cattle[/b]
if you look at the video:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00br05p
they seem to be able to walk around, move to their bed when they wish to chew cud and then they can go to feed when they choose
having said that.. in the US calves are treated worse than they would be in the UK
in the US they do use stalls for calves, though in the EU the size of them would be banned
Uplink, ever thought to read the sources you are linking too.
Have a read of page 18 where it states that
all organic livestock must be based on grazing
Muppet. 🙄
Crikey, how weak minded!
Not really,you are just coming across as a bit,well preachy.It is like this,I unlike you obviously,have to source my food as cheaply as possible.Therefore,while I feel that ill treatment of animals is wrong,my primary consideration is feeding my family.That outweighs any sympathy for cows with vertigo I am afraid.I think you will find in the wider world(ie not here)that the majority of people feel the same way.
Duckman, your choice. Cash before animal welfare. Organic food does not have to be more expensive, especially if sourced locally.
anyway, the megafarm will be aiming at the other 96% of the milk market
doing it bigger, faster and cheaper
as a mass producer lets hope they have some sway over what the supermarkets pay
Seen dairy cows post-milking? They look haggard/awful.
Don't bloody drink milk I say.
lol, I'll admit I did check before replying - it confirmed what I already knew, "organic" has nothing to do with living standards.
Have to take back what I said, LHS is right on this one.. Work is so dull even reading up about organic standards is more interesting:
Organic stockfarming is a land-related activity. Except where authorised by way of
exception in these Standards, livestock must have access to a free-range area and the
number of animals per unit of area must be limited to ensure integrated management of
livestock and crop production on the production unit, so minimising any form of pollution,
in particular of the soil and of surface and ground water.
From
Of course, the definition of "free-range area" is probably open to interpretation, and limiting numbers could mean anything.
I've been reading this thread from the beginning. Before, I did't know anyhting about these cattle farms, and if someone had asked me to sign a petition against them, I probably would have done. But now I'm a bit better infomed. The thing is, people who want to oppose this sort of thing only present their side of the argumnet, often in the emotive, blinkered way seen here (Yes you, LHS) What you say is perfectly valid as a point of view, but it is no more than that: A point of view. Other points of view are available. FACTS are available.
I shall be actively supporting the unit.
Now, whilst I wouldn't go that far, now knowing more than I did about these units, I believe the animals will be treated humanely and the practice is nowhere near as bad as the emotive [i]"US-style cow factory farm "[/i] title suggests. Not even close.
So thanks for bringing this to my attention LHS. I've learnt something and you've opened up a discussion that's changed my opinion.
Other points of view are available
Of course, yet you never see petitions calling for more of these battery cow farms do you?
Next time your in a supermarket- feel the breast(!) of the whole chickens. Note how utterly slack and pillow-like they are now. No density or firmness - even the 'free range lying bollocks' ones.
It says to me these chickens never move so they never build any firmness
🙁
yet you never see petitions calling for more of these battery cow farms do you?
I would have thought that's called a 'planning application'.......
It says to me these chickens never move so they never build any firmness
Chickens, last time I checked, didn't walk on their breast. It's usual for them to use their legs for that you know. A free range chicken, last time I ate one, seemed to have bigger meatier legs though...... 😉
But now I'm a bit better infomed.
informed by who, can i ask? if you're referring to the posts by the "animal welfare expert" it might be a good idea to check his credentials/allegiances otherwise you're no better informed than if you'd listened to LHS.
PETA are animal welfare experts too, and look [url= http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/03/27/does-peta-kill-animals-absolutely-says-newkirk/ ]how many healthy animals they destroy[/url]
as said above, maybe the best approach is to just stop drinking the stuff...
All this has reminded me of Alan Partridge on modern farming methods
Alan Partridge: You are a big posh sod with plums in your mouth, and the plums have mutated and they have got beaks. You make pigs smoke. You feed beef burgers to swans. You have big sheds, but nobody's allowed in. And in these sheds you have 20ft high chickens, and these chickens are scared because the don't know why they're so big, and they're going, "Oh why am I so massive?" and they're looking down at all the little chickens and they think they're in an aeroplane because all the other chickens are so small. Do you deny that? No, I think his silence speaks volumes.
You feed beef burgers to swans
😆
What a line. 'Beefburgers to swans' ffs!
Would it be ok to feed beefburgers to swans though? I dunno.
Would it be ok to feed beefburgers to swans though? I dunno.
could be risky. they'd break your arm if they didn't like 'em
The insistence on calling the creatures "battery cows" when they are of course, nothing of the sort, highlights the problem inherent in trying to reason with numpties who would rather bang their own particularly noisy drum, than consider the evidence...
The insistence on calling the creatures "battery cows" when they are of course, nothing of the sort,
What would you call thousands of cows in the same building?
highlights the problem inherent in trying to reason with numpties
Do you really need to stoop to name calling?
I don't understand why you would support such regressive farming practices like this, when what we have already works fine. As some have pointed out, they want to eat £1 steak every night and pay 5p less for a pint of milk. If thats your priority in life then fine, but it doesn't make it right, and is in fact the stem of the problem in the first place.
I rest my case.
I rest my case.
Yes, the name calling was a high point to leave!
regressive farming practices
Not exactly sure what a "regressive farming practice" is, but I think the point people are making is that apart from some anthropomorphic views on what constitutes a happy cow you haven't actually been able to explain what's wrong with intensive dairy farming. Then again, looking at the Compassion in World Farming and WSPA web sites they don't seem to have a clue either.
Living in a big shed? Pah! They could be in a French Veal crate
Life of bloody luxury! They don't know they're born!
Some people on here want to watch their step. This could happen:
I reckon those cows will live a happier, more contented life than most of the people who will be drinking the milk they produce.
As long as 60m people need feeding this kind of farming will have to continue and all that we can do is make it humane, it's never going to be Bessie in a field full of bluebells again.
It's naive to think that we could all live the river cottage life, we had to during the war and we could not feed the nation without assistance and there were 10 million less of us.
im not so sure that "this kind of farming will have to continue"
in the same way that im struggling to see how this innovative new approach can be considered regressive.
this is a small piece in a big puzzle, we either work out how to continue to live our lives how they are - but with an increasing population, or we look at changing the lives and habits of the population
whichever way we go there will be mistakes, but these have to be made to be shown to be 'incorrect'
it will go ahead, if it works financially, it will continue and spread
if you personally dont like it, oppose it with your wallet.
i watched the program the other day, it is unfair but the farmer was right.
we need this level because us the consumers dont want to pay for our meat! we want to pay as little as possible and this is what its come to because we wont pay an extra pound or so.
the farmer of "free range" said he was amazed how good the conditions were.....
this kind of farming will have to continue
Not necessarily, the retail industry wastes hundreds of thousands of tonnes each year through poor planning. If we decrease waste, we wouldn't need to resort to this type of farming.
As long as shoppers are happy with Supermarket shopping and people want low cost meat, eggs, poultry etc intensive farming is necessary.
It's all very well to talk about being happy to pay 10 quid for a free range super chicken or significantly more for a cut of beef but there are millions of people out there who are not happy to pay more, want to feed their families animal products and frankly don't think about the process that gets it to their table.
This farm is unatural but intensive farming is. I'm not sure it is any more cruel than other farms.
Would it be ok to feed beefburgers to swans though? I dunno.
not if they are waste beefburgers as it is against ABP Regs...
ah bless meat eaters get all upset about animal welfare. Obviosly not so upset that you will stop killing them though.
The insistence on calling the creatures "battery cows" when they are of course, nothing of the sort,What would you call thousands of cows in the same building?
They run on grass/feed.
[i]ah bless meat eaters get all upset about animal welfare[/i]
Not all of us. I only looked at this thread to see why it had so many replies.
[i]Obviosly not so upset that you will stop killing them though.[/i]
Last animal I killed was a lizard. (Didn't eat it)
Ah, glad to see Junkyard has finally made an appearance on this one. 🙂
I'll just add my tuppence to his wise words.
The debate goes something like: are cattle better off reared in fields or big sheds?
Being as how we don't actually need to consume animals or animal products the logical option I would add to this is that cows are better off not being reared at all.
tend to leave these debates to be honest I do find it odd how sentimental meat eaters get yet not enough to stop killing it as if that bit is not the cruelest part of the industry
Also like the way they they will eat a cow but not a horse never really understood that either
For the record my view is that eating meat per se is not necessarily cruel if you are alion for example- IMHO once you industralise it / farm it it is inherently cruel