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i'd eat a horse! in fact i'd much prefer to eat a horse than a cow.... horses look tasty. cow meat never excites me.
as for chickens.... kill em all, cover them in periperi and force feed me until either chicken are wiped out or i am. evil beady-eyed pecky beasts.
i'd eat cat and dog too, in fact... i'd probably eat human if i was in a situation that required it. throw on some reggae reggae sauce and job done!
The insistence on calling the creatures "battery cows" when they are of course, nothing of the sort,
Could you define what a battery cow is then please and state how these ones are different?
Anyone who has worked on a farm with cattle can tell you that they certainly appear happier when allowed outside, these zero grazing systems no doubt keep the animals healthier in the physical sense though.
No, I am not a lion, which is a pure carnivore. I am a human, which is an omnivore. There's quite a difference in the teeth from vegetarian species you see
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LHS - MemberMuppet.
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LHS - Member
Do you really need to stoop to name calling?
Ah, irony.
What a great thread, I missed it first time around.
The problem, as I see it, is that LHS has an image in his (I assume) head of 'battery farmed' cows, flank to flank with no space for a good moo. Pumped full of drugs and generally given a daily kicking, etc. He's arguing against this and, to be fair, I don't blame him, I'd argue against something like that as well.
However. Far as I can tell, that image has no bearing in reality. EU legislation prohibits a lot of the practices that would be "mistreatment"; also, as others have said, routinely filling them full of antibiotics would be pointless and a waste of money, and they still have space to move around.
What it boils down to, then, is "cows being kept in buildings, how cruel." Now, I've no idea what effect a lack of sunlight would have on your average bovine (assuming no-one's invented windows yet), whether they'd be ill or distressed, or whether they wouldn't give a toss either way. It may be cruel, it may not be, but I'd certainly want to find out for sure before leaping to conclusions based on nothing more than "how would you like it" - I'm not a cow so I'm in no position to judge.
If this thread has served any positive purpose, it's that I'd now like to know more about what's actually being proposed (as opposed to the Daily Mail-esque 'cow car park' headline).
Junkyard > I don't agree that farming is "inherently" cruel. I'm sure some are and some aren't.
Ultimately though, it's supply and demand - will people pay extra for 'ethical' farming methods that are inherently more expensive than their mass-produced variants? Sadly, it'd seem not to be the case, though I suspect that people might be more convinced with a bit of advertising and education (does anyone still by battery eggs, outside of the underclasses that can't afford anything else?) The problem then is that you get the PETA "meat is murder" nutcase brigade frothing about the poor ikkle baa-lambs and it undermines the entire argument.
MMMMMMM.....poor ikkle baa-lamb....
Far as I can tell, that image has no bearing in reality
Source?
mint for lamb
apple for pork
red wine for cow?
What's with all this increase food production to feed the chubbies?
The solution is simple? Eat less and reduce human population or let them starve. No need all this high tech shite to grow cows.
Simple.
😈
(assuming no-one's invented windows yet)
I'm a battery cow, and Windows 7 was my idea.
I don't agree that farming is "inherently" cruel. I'm sure some are and some aren't.
I think you can have less cruel or more cruel but not cruelty free. remember all domesticated animals were once free and are now no longer wild and are "imprisoned " in fields, selectivelty bred - often by artificial means these days-, can have incredibly short life spans, or immensly hard workingones - milk cattle who have vast quantities of medicines to keep disease down due to over work /clos eproximity to each other, and exist simply to be killed to be eaten. This is some way away from the zebra or Buffalo roaming the plains as in the wild. I dont think there is some sort of moral good being done to the animals by farming and cant really see how you could - of course some is mor ecruel than others and you can either accept this to eat meat or not as is your opwn moral choice.
there would be more veggies if we made everyone grow their own cruelty free meat though as a lot f meat eaters would see the cruelty at the point of the kill I suspect - perhaps we should make them collect live chickens froma battery farm ? to see what the ocst of cheap meat is?
Chewkw making the most sense so far.
i want everyone to think long and hard about that*.
we can't feed 7billion people with cows that look like this:
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eat less meat, and stop having so many kids.
(*no offence meant Chewie, your posts are often baffling, entertaining, but baffling)
Chewkw making the most sense so far.
Agreed, people need to be educated that eating there Tesco value steak for dinner every night is not sustainable and it the root cause of the problem.
'root cause of the problem'
nothing to do with 7billion people then? - actually, i've just thought about this, and you're probably right, our demand for cheap meat/food has a lot to answer for.
Far as I can tell, that image has no bearing in reality
Source?
The countryfle programme that had the USA super dairy with the UK dairy farmer on it, who was in the process of closing his dairy farm down, saying how happy the coos looked??
According to a 2006 report by the Livestock, Environment And Development Initiative, the livestock industry is one of the largest contributors to environmental degradation worldwide, and modern practices of raising animals for food contributes on a "massive scale" to air and water pollution, land degradation, climate change, and loss of biodiversity. The initiative concluded that "the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global."[1] In 2006 FAO estimated that meat industry contributes 18% of all emissions of greenhouse gasses. This figure was challenged in 2009 by two World-Watch researchers who estimated a 51% minimum,[2] however this paper has not been peer reviewed.[3]Animals fed on grain need more water than grain crops.[4] In tracking food animal production from the feed through to the dinner table, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from a 4:1 energy input to protein output ratio up to 54:1.[4] The result is that producing animal-based food is typically much less efficient than the harvesting of grains, vegetables, legumes, seeds and fruits for direct human consumption.[4]
Relatedly, the production and consumption of meat and other animal products is associated with the clearing of rainforests, resource depletion, air and water pollution, land and economic inefficiency, species extinction, and other environmental harms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_meat_production
The use of water is also huge for meat production compared to vegetables by a factor of about 200-300 times more.
LHS >
Source?
Good question - what's your source?
I'm basing that opinion on what other people have said - that a large part of what you've described is inherently illegal in the UK by EU law. Even if I'm wrong doesn't automatically mean you're right - it then falls into the category of "we don't know" unless you can prove otherwise. Which, so far, you've systematically failed to do; you've made assumptions and then shouted down anyone who's questioned you.
Junkyard >
there would be more veggies if we made everyone grow their own cruelty free meat though
Did I fail to mention I've been veggie for almost 20 years? Fancy that. (-:
The countryfle programme that had the USA super dairy with the UK dairy farmer on it, who was in the process of closing his dairy farm down, saying how happy the coos looked??
Healthy maybe, not sure about happy from what I recall of the programme.
If you shut a cow in a shed for a few months over winter then let it out in spring its fairly easy to tell what they prefer.
Oh, and,
I was born and raised on a dairy farm, we shut up shop when I was fairly young but my folks have been farmers for generations. My ancestors used to milk diplodocii. Probably.
If you shut a cow in a shed for a few months over winter then let it out in spring its fairly easy to tell what they prefer.
You could make the same argument if you shut a cow outside for a few months over winter, unless your preference was for pre-frozen beef.
And actually,
Can you tell? Do you know this for a fact, or have you made it up? (Not saying you're wrong per sé, I ask merely for information)
You could make the same argument if you shut a cow outside for a few months over winter, unless your preference was for pre-frozen beef.
Not sure never tried it, a well fed cow can easily withstand any temperatures the majority of the UK can throw at them, the hard part is keeping them well fed, as long as they are ruminating they will be warm enough.
Can you tell? Do you know this for a fact, or have you made it up?
My experience is with beef cattle, but they certainly look happier running about and kicking up a storm when you let them out in the spring, obviously its hard to measure.
remember all domesticated animals were once free and are now no longer wild and are "imprisoned "in fields”
Ah... lament the likes of the Whitley Large Ox roaming the globe, unhindered by the dastardly scheming of mankind...
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Junkyard, the idea of all domesticated animals having once been free is laughably absurd. In fact, the reverse is closer to the case. Domesticated animals exist almost entirely through complex relations with man. If it weren't for these domesticated animals simply wouldn't exist. Moreover, they never would have existed. Domesticated animals exist precisely because they have been valued and thus bred to provide certain characteristics that are valued to humans, they simply do not exist in the wild.
Ok, fairly pointless, but it does undermine the credibility of your other (possibly more valid and interesting) arguments when you make such ridiculous claims.
I've never seen a cow smile, in fact aren't they supposed to be expressionless!? Certainly don't see how one farmer can be the judge!!
Now if I was a cow and I was given the opportunity of being kept indoors all my life in artificial light, being fed high yield feed so I can be milked 3 times a day only to deveop mastitis and either being pumped full of anti-biotics or being prematurely killed due to it...I'm not sure i would accept. Would you?
well i see your point that we took animals and bred them to create the breeds we have now - Did I not also make that point- albeit somewhat badly? I noted that
remember all domesticated animals were once free and are[b] now no longer wild[/b] and are "imprisoned " in fields, [b]selectivelty bred [/b]- often by artificial means these days
I suppose I should have said ancestors from which the domesticated animals came from . However it is a bit of a mouthful but would have made the point clearer. I am sure you knew that was what I was getting at anyway but hey ho have an stw pedant point on me 😉
Yes the animals we have today would not exist if we did not farm how could anyone argue differently?
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Now if I was a cow and I was given the opportunity of being kept indoors all my life in artificial light, being fed high yield feed so I can be milked 3 times a day only to deveop mastitis and either being pumped full of anti-biotics or being prematurely killed due to it...I'm not sure i would accept. Would you?
A) you're not a cow so how "you" would feel is baseless, and
B) I'm still waiting for you to cite any proof at all that any of these things actually happen (or are being proposed) in the UK.
If I were a cow, I wouldn't like being painted green and have coconuts hurled at me. See how easy that line of argument is? Quick, get a petition up to stop the spread of green bovine coconutting!!
what we should do is kill off all the tasty meaty animals in one enormous barbecue and invite the world to come and have a spare rib, reduce methane emissions (major greenhouse gas)at the same time from ruminants bottoms and then all become veggie (and wear activated carbon filtered pants otherwise methane emission will increase again)
sorted!
If I were a cow, I wouldn't like being painted green and have coconuts hurled at me. See how easy that line of argument is? Quick, get a petition up to stop the spread of green bovine coconutting!!
😯
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Quick, get a petition up to stop the spread of green bovine coconutting!!
nooooo it's too late 🙁
Heh, maybe they're just shy.
Where did I put my coat?
No, but wait, all this arguing is pointless: if we stopped eating animals then we wouldn't need to worry about how domesticated animals are kept.
It's really that simple.
(Though I do concede that this scenario is unlikely to materialise so perhaps my pointing out that the argument is pointless is also pointless. Just eat [i]less[/i] meat for now, people, cos every little helps.)
Unrelatedly, can you possibly back this statement up with any actual sources:
If I were a cow, I wouldn't like being painted green
?
The coconut-pelting they would indeed probably not enjoy, but just as the lion pictured above is a boring shade of beigey-brown in order to blend into the background and more effectively sneak up on its prey, perhaps cattle would rather appreciate their prey not being able to see it walking over to have a munch.
Whilst we may not want to anthropomorphise too much it does not seem too hard to work out what is nice and what is not nice from a cows [or other animals] point of view up to a pont. I am sure a cow/chicken would rather be free range than a battery cow/chicken. I presume I could do some research - bet there is lots of funding available- to prove it but it seems fairly self evident. Not really enough for an ignoble prize though 😥
Oh God,where is Great Big Billy Goat Gruff when you need him?
Ian
Junkyard- Not trying to be pedantic, I just picked up on the domestication thing as I just think that amongst all the decent points you make, there are some you make that undermine them.
I strongly agree that all domestication and agriculture involves instrumentalisation, though I am not as convinced as you are that this is [i]necessarily[/i] ethically unacceptable. Nor am I convinced that the slaughter of animals is [i]necessarily[/i] the least ethically justifiable element of agricultural practices involving animals. Also, though I think the intensive use of animals enforced by the 'average' consumption patterns (here at least) is ethically unjustifiable for numerous reasons, I am very much against the blanket notion that all production of animal products is [i]necessarily[/i] less sustainable than the vegan alternative projected. I strongly disagree with the idea that carnivores can have no reasonable moral concern for the interests of sentient beings that they are willing to consume. Finally, I do agree that in certain situations it doesn't generally take an idiot to sense what an animal is feeling (accusations of anthropomorphism aside). And that you can get funding for that kind of thing, even with the recent cuts.
Anyway, not too sure how that contributes to the wider debate any more. Please continue.
pretty good somethingion basically most peole agree factory/intensive is the least nice option. Most then think it is ok to eat/kill/farm meat some dont. I also agree that all some meat stuff is sustainable either and I am sure a balance could be struck if that is what people want.
this appeared on one of these threads on here - I am a vegan btw but pro choice- and made me chuckle
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I am very much against the blanket notion that all production of animal products is necessarily less sustainable than the vegan alternative projected.
Me too. I completely concede that most people living, say, above 66° North need animal products to continue their lifestyle: vegan Inuit are probably less sustainable.
I had a rant on another 'forum' (4chan, off all the possible places to attempt to argue...) and the point I made there was basically: "Using land to grow food to then feed that to animals and then feed the animals to humans is retarded. If you don't know why learn2food chain- trophic levels- energy flows, ****s"
That all production of animal products is necessarily less sustainable than the vegan alternative projected is a blanket notion that is utterly true for 99.9% of the animal products consumed in this country.
I think the animal welfare groups have missed a trick on this one....
We live in a globalised world, the majority of the chicken sold in the UK comes from Brazil/ Thailand.
Why is it cheaper to grow the chickens half way round the world and then fly the carcasses back?
The reason is that in 1996 the EU banned all anti-biotic growth promoters (the same ones that some people seem to think cows are 'pumped full of') in the food chain. This left UK producers unable to compete against cheap foreign imports - so the net result of the do-gooders was to move meat production from a highly regulated area to an almost totally unregulated area. Thus individual animal welfare actually decreased because of the actions of the welfare campaigners.
So to my mind these huge style farms should be here so that people like LHS and supporters can then actually ensure that welfare standards are actually improved rather than being hidden half way round the world.
Wow, magowen, that's a really flipping good point! It would also mean jobs created in the production industry. Definitely a step in the right direction for animal welfare.
Further to what I rambled on about above, however, what would we feed animals reared in this country on? Probably what most animals in Europe are fed on: grain and soya imported from the Americas. Sustainable...?
The high protein food is interesting, dont know about cows but certainly pigs fed high protein food show more agression to each other and tail biting becomes a problem. The theory goes that the high protein fed doesnt fill them up so they are always hungary and so will eat more. Obviously the intensive rearing in crates stops tail biting as they cant reach!!
My friend did her PhD on dairy cow welfare and proved that if you stroke cows a lot when they are young they get less stressed and let down their milk quicker when they join the milking herd.....
Not sure how either of these points move the debate on but I thought they were interesting.
Now if I was a cow and I was given the opportunity of being kept indoors all my life in artificial light, being fed high yield feed so I can be milked 3 times a day only to deveop mastitis and either being pumped full of anti-biotics or being prematurely killed due to it...I'm not sure i would accept. Would you?
Probably not. But to be honest neither would I accept being forced to bear offspring effectively constantly and having the male "child" shot at birth, or shipped off for veal, and the "female" forced to enter the same cycle.
I dont believe that these cows are kept in a battery style, more that they are intensively farmed, and to my mind they are vastly different. Its like the picture that the advertisers/producers/supermarkets try to paint in consumers minds about "barn chickens or eggs" they try to suggest that the barns are made of wood in the classic Disney style and the farmers wife goes out to feed them fresh picked corn from her wicker basket and knows all of their names. When in reality its a big metal shed and people wearing white overalls walk in and pick up the dead ones and the place reeks from the feed and their excrement.
being fed high yield feed
so do cows hat are not kept in these conditions only eat green grass?
like it or not the world is now in the position where intensive/highly efficient farming is required to feed its growing population. To try to say that we should all go vegy or vegan mat be a solution but it just is not going to happen.
Most people are missing the point, it's not the fact that this super dairy is being proposed, it's why it is. The reason is, as some people have already pointed out, the criminal prices farmers are being paid for their milk by supermarkets, as the price they are being paid is not meeting the cost it took to produce that milk, but whilst all this is going on, the supermarkets are still making HUGE profits. This is, quite obviously, unsustainable, and anyone with half a brain will tell you so. When milk prices shot down in 2003, dairy farmers either had to go out of business or drastically increase the size of their herd to meet production costs in the long run. But as people still want cheaper and cheaper milk, farmers must find a way of producing more milk even cheaper, which will never work other than to keep thousands of cows inside close to the parlour. Small dairy herds, which most people think of as the ideal, happy cows grazing outside had to go out of business due to incredibly low milk prices that farmers couldn't afford to keep, no mind make a living off. If people actually care and want to make a difference, then they should vote with their wallets and buy the more expensive british milk than the budget milk and make supermarkets raise milk prices, unless you want more super dairys to be built to meet demand for low cost milk. If people had complained about the milk prices farmers are getting in the first place, then i can guarantee that this thread would never had needed to exhist, and most small dairy farms may have been able to survive, but with the way were going now, its only going to get worse. And i'm an agricultural student aswell as working two to three days a week on a 400 cow dairy farm and have done so for some time, so i do know quite a bit about this subject! as for the regular anti-biotic injections and growth hormones- complete utter made-up trash, aswell as cows being crammed inside with little to no room. All made up by idiotic wannabe eco terrorists that have to complain about everything that they have no knowledge about!
Is it people who are wanting the low price for the milk or is it the supermarkets who are looking to use it as a leader to get people into the shops so they can spend cash on other things? And also so the supermarkets can make their big wad of profit from it, just as they do when they tell the producer that they are to provide ,and fund, the free one in the buy one get on free deals. Genuine question, it could well be both the consumer and retailer. I know I dont look at the price of milk when I buy it, I just know that I need it for my cereal in the morning 🙂
From my media fed knowledge I agree that the price of milk paid to producers is criminally low and it has to be putting the farmers under massive pressure to reduce their costs. I seem to recall that a couple of years ago in Germany that the dairy farmers made a protest at the low cost they were getting for milk that they all milked their cows as normal but poured it all down the drains for a number of days. IIRC they did allow some to be processed for the elderly and kiddies milk.
it does not seem too hard to work out what is nice and what is not nice from a cows [or other animals] point of view up to a pont
It seems quite hard to me, but then I'm not an animal behaviourist. The anthropomorphic view would say that they'd be happiest gamboling in the sunny green fields, but the ancestors of cows and chickens would probably have existed in herds or flocks for safety so it wouldn't surprise me at all if their preferred environment was to be crammed together somewhere safe.
Yes, your right as it is the average consumer that just wants cheap milk and has no thought for a second how it has come to be there for that price and what effort that has gone into getting it. I appretiate that many people don't and won't know how that milk gets there, but as people want cheap milk, they will get it them by passing the savings onto the farmer, and supermarkets are well in the knowledge that they are not meeting the cost of the production.
It's a case of supply and demand, as long as people are buying and wanting cheap milk, supermarkets will continue to get it by ripping the farmers off, so yes it is the fault of the consumer and the supermarkets in my opinion. Somethings got to change...some farmers have been setting up protests outside supermarket depos, mainly ASDA, to raise awareness of low milk prices, they may claim to pay one of the highest milk prices, but thats only to their direct suppliers, they have even basically admitted that they pay below production costs to most of the regular farmers, and even these are being cancelled out by rising costs of everything else [url= http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2011/01/19/125142/Milk-price-rises-welcome-but-soaring-costs-eclipse-improvements.htm ]RISING COSTS[/url]