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Maybe, but the current system is not democratic,
So say those who backed the losing side in a recent democratic referendum.
Beargrease. What does that have to do with anything? If anything it proves we believe in democracy. We lost and are getting on with it. We haven't lost our beliefs, no. But point me out where it says we should in the democracy manual.
Losing a referendum does not mean we cannot criticise glaring errors in the existing system. Youse wanted unity, well this is it. We are allowed our opinions.
Yet the polling shows that the governments position on Trident is anything BUT a travesty:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/07/16/public-support-nuclear-weapons/
Yet the polling shows that the governments position on Trident is anything BUT a travesty:https://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/07/16/public-support-nuclear-weapons/
Not in Scotland it doesn't. Support for getting rid of the Trident is almost double what it is in other parts of the UK.
One measured by most normal standards, quality of life, wealth, security, opportunity.
You can have all of those things in a small country and none of them in a large one. A country's success doesn't hinge on it's size.
I think the SNP should put a referendum in there manifesto for both the 2015 and 2016 elections. This time it should be a referendum on true home rule/devo max.
We would then see how democratic the systems are.
Not in Scotland it doesn't. Support for getting rid of the Trident is almost double what it is in other parts of the UK.
Price of fish? Unless you've forgotten, Scotland is part of the UK...
Err, yeah - hence "other parts of the UK".
duckman - Member
As he is fond of saying "the truth is out there" So I should point out
THM seems to have left out the fact he wants to preserve the status quo as he might fancy living here again,From a selfish perspective, I may well be returning to Scotland to live and hence I would like to see the country's best interest served.
Great effort ducks, but if you are going to those lengths at least pick a quote that supports your point.
So Joe, if the result was the other way round, would it have been democratic?
When was Smith ever about devo max?? Pls make a note, treat anything that yS and AS says with a very large piece of salt. After that ignore it and you will be fine!
Either result if a majority under a referendum is democratic.teamhurtmore - Member
So Joe, if the result was the other way round, would it have been democratic?When was Smith ever about devo max?? Pls make a note, treat anything that yS and AS says with a very large piece of salt. After that ignore it and you will be fine!
Regarding smith commission I go by what the unionists said in the week before. It essentially was. Regardless I'm not overly fussed about the smith commission, it is what it is. I'm more interesting in bottom up organisation and how we can influence policy for the common good, if that can start here and spread elsewhere great. My focus isn't on independence, future events will decide my thoughts on that in the future.
Just back from the common weal south side meeting there, very interesting, their second meeting, my first time attending. It's that kinda thing I'm more interested in than any political party, I've thought long about it and I reject aligning myself to any party. I always said the battle would just begin with a yes vote. That doesn't actually change with a no vote.
I've thought long about it and I reject aligning myself to any party.
Common ground there at least! A very unpopular position on here though, especially for the hairy little men.
Common ground, surely not! I think Hell just froze! 😉
@epic - I believe the House of Lords fulfills a very important democratic function. I'd much rather have that house overseeing legislation than the EU. We should be spending more on defense. We have material cuts to government spending as it was out of control under Labour and much more than we could afford, the UK was living beyond it's means. We have one of the most generous welfare states in the world. 100,000's of people come to the UK every year as its a more attractive place to live than where they come from. If all this is a travesty then long may it continue.
jambalaya - Member
@epic - I believe the House of Lords fulfills a very important democratic function....
There is absolutely nothing democratic about the House of Lords.
There is a place for a house of review, but it must be democratically accountable.
why?jambalaya - Member
We should be spending more on defense.
We should be spending more on defense. We have material cuts to government spending as it was out of control under Labour and much more than we could afford, the UK was living beyond it's means. We have one of the most generous welfare states in the world. 100,000's of people come to the UK every year as its a more attractive place to live than where they come from. If all this is a travesty then long may it continue.
brought to you by the bringer of this little gem
jambalaya - Member@epic - I believe the House of Lords fulfills a very important democratic function
Doubtless the explanation of what is democratic about the unelected House of Lords will be along shortly, as will the rationale for why government spending is bad unless it's on defense. I'm looking forward to it, I could do with a laugh
Defense? I guess it's all to do with what the Yanks want so maybe that's the correct spelling after all.
We live in a democracy, the house of Lords is part of our democratic process. The appointments to the Lords are made as part of our democratic process. The fact it is not an elected chamber doesn't change that. It's primarily a review body, the electoral accountability is at the level of the commons which is where the majority of the work and responsibility lies.
We need a larger armed forces to counter the increasing threats to our security and to protect our international interests.
Where did I say government spending was bad ? I said we have been spending too much, living beyond our means. Unless we manage our spending the NHS and welfare state we enjoy here will become a thing of the past as our nation will be bankrupt. It is the less fortunate members of society who will then suffer the most. The last government did them a great disservice.
Defense? I guess it's all to do with what the Yanks want so maybe that's the correct spelling after all.
Very true, pity some people posting on this thread don't realise that the sun has set on the Empire. "International interests" that is a good one.
jambalaya - MemberWe need a larger armed forces to counter the increasing threats to our security and to protect our international interests.
How does a large armed force protect us from domestic and internal terrorists? (the only threat britain really faces.)
jambalaya - Member
We live in a democracy, the house of Lords is part of our democratic process...
No it isn't.
It is there to override our democratic process.
It serves the interests of the Establishment - which includes the people who own the media that unsurprisingly tell you how wonderful the HoL is.
There to override our democratic process
OK, and which parts of our democratic process can the House of Lords overrule?
ninfan - Member
"There to override our democratic process"
OK, and which parts of our democratic process can the House of Lords overrule?
If you are suggesting it can't interfere, then it has no purpose other than being a very expensive ceremonial circus.
Does this mean you'll join me in seeking its abolition?
Freedom for Yorkshire anyone? Please?
If you are suggesting it can't interfere, then it has no purpose other than being a very expensive ceremonial circus.
You didn't say it could interfere, you said it could overrule
And I didn't hear you complaining when it interfered with ID cards, 42 day detentions or the welfare bill...
I was more thinking quarantine! 😆mt - Member
Freedom for Yorkshire anyone? Please?
As this is a thread on Scotland we can encourage them to show the UK the way to utopia complete with a parliament without a house of lords and high rates of tax to reduce income inequality and pay for their spending.
jambalaya - Member
So no answer then?
I said we have been spending too much, living beyond our means. Unless we manage our spending the NHS and welfare state we enjoy here will become a thing of the past as our nation will be bankrupt.
..and yet uncontrolled spending on arms won't make us bankrupt?
Don't you think spending money on defending the country should take second place to making the country worth defending?
We have one of the most generous welfare states in the world. 100,000's of people come to the UK every year as its a more attractive place to live than where they come from. If all this is a travesty then long may it continue.
Apparently not, because we have record numbers of people depending charity and foodbanks, and you think that this is a good thing.
Still at least when all those immigrants get sent home, you'll be able to drive on motorways without being held up.
Answer to what ?
Where did I say uncontrolled spending? We already spend a huge amount on making the country worth defending, that why its one of the most popular places in the world for people to come to live. I am all in favour of immigration, it should be controlled just like it is in the US or Australia for example.
Just been listening to Baroness Amos, life peer speaking in her role as UN Emergency Relief Co-ordinator. Doesn't fit the establishment / hereditary sterotype of the House of Lords.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30380170 ]UN calls for Syrian Refugee Relief Aid[/url]
"I was more thinking quarantine!"
Well it would be a start at least.
jambalaya - Member
Just been listening to Baroness Amos, life peer speaking in her role as UN Emergency Relief Co-ordinator. Doesn't fit the establishment / hereditary sterotype of the House of Lords.
That doesn't make her position democratic or make her a person who supports democracy.
It would be wonderful if the HoL was full of good guys only interested in the common weal, but it isn't, and none of them are accountable to voters.
mt - Member
Freedom for Yorkshire anyone? Please?
We're with you on this. Be good to have the buffer nation of Eboracum between us and the southern mob. 🙂
[quote=jambalaya ]Just been listening to Baroness Amos, life peer speaking in her role as UN Emergency Relief Co-ordinator. Doesn't fit the establishment / hereditary sterotype of the House of Lords.
Great. We should vote to keep her.
Oh.
Well I think the Commons have enough to worry about without tinkering with the House of Lords. We do vote to keep the House of Lords by voting for parties which elect to keep it.
I hope Yorkshire can do a better job than Birmingham / West Midlands council, royally ( 😉 ) criticized today, their childrens department has been under special measures since 2009 (part of me thinks that must be a mistake, 5 years) ! I think we all question the ability of Westminster politicians just think how dire the local folk are, as I've posted before a good friend worked closely with local government and was horrified at the incompetence (and corruption) and she was trying to give the area money from the EU. I don't want these folk having more power. We have these new elected PCCs (voted for by 10-15% of people who bother to turn out), making a £100k a year a year and then creating a deputy post for their mates, another £50k+. We need less of this nonsense not more.
I suppose Yorkshire wants all this devolved power but would like to keep all the tax revenues transferred up from that there South, all the juicy London stamp duty and income tax eh ?
jambalaya - Member
...I hope Yorkshire can do a better job than Birmingham / West Midlands council, royally ( ) criticized today, their childrens department has been under special measures since 2009...
Ah, the dumb provincials argument again.
The issue there is non-accountability and/or transparency, in other words a need for better democracy, not less.
BTW the councillors are held to higher standards of behaviour than the HoL, eg they have to declare conflicts of interest, so to that extent they are better than the HoL.
Baroness Amos
Is a very modern establishment figure, she has worked for local authorities, quangos and government.
Epic it's not about provincials just the talent pool generally given the wages
Mefty I appreciate she's "establishment", to me that means she has the right experience and track record for the job
I am all in favour of immigration, it should be controlled just like it is in the US or Australia for example.
someone who says this is evidently clueless about how pisspoor the US immigration system is at controlling anything
@kona, I lived and worked in the US for 3 years. The immigration issues in the US are due to the huge land borders they have and the amount of illegals who cross over. As an island we have a big advantage, we just need to get people to fill in a form and apply for a VISA. Clegg today said he was in favour of adding exit controls, a sound idea and one many countries have. The fact is we don't even know if people over stay
it's also due to the total ineptitude of the administration, the hopeless cloggin up of the system for family member visas, the stupidity of AOS procedures that quadruple the number of contacts that have to be made between customer and administration... the US immigration system is not based on skills testing....and there are literally millions of people who are not entitled to live and work in the US who do
I have no idea why you would use the US as a model for a desirable skills based immigration system. it's not well-administered, it's not focused on skills and it's not any good at controlling immigration. you might as well use chocolate teapots as a model for hot beverage dispensing.
Doesn't fit the establishment / hereditary sterotype of the House of Lords
I appreciate she's "establishment", to me that means she has the right experience and track record for the job
Which is it? She is a political quangocrat, she was appointed to the Lords to serve in Blair's government and has since then held a number of supranational jobs which are given to superannuated politicians as thank yous - see Lansley after the next election. She may be very good for all I know, but don't fool yourself, these are nothing but political appointments, typical of sterotypical establishment figures who are in the Lords.
I'd like to know how people propose to control immigration from the eu? Are we going to start asking for visas for everyone coming here for a 2 week holiday?
I'd like to see debate on immigration based on verifiable facts rather than the drivel we get from The Daily Fail and The Tellemcraph
Yeah but remember, the current UK government's stated position is that you shouldn't base your immigration policy on quantitative evidence.
I'd like to know how people propose to control immigration from the eu? Are we going to start asking for visas for everyone coming here for a 2 week holiday?
We can't, that's UKIPs point. Freedom of movement is written into the EU treaties.
We see again repeated here the view the immigration issue is framed by the Daily Mail and the Telegraph, as I must have posted dozens of times that totally misses the point. Its what people are seeing in their local towns and communities which is forming opinion. The political parties are now taking it seriously but its taken them 2 years to wake up to it.
As for quantitative evidence we have very poor estimates for immigration as we don't actually keep records (eg no exit checks). I read yesterday a piece which suggested the UK population was close to 70m not the 60m the figure the authorities use for the reasons I gave. The research I have seen doesn't even attempt to divide out EU immigration from that from elsewhere (thus subject to visa etc) and to attempt to differentiate between professional immigrants to arrive with sponsorship from an employer (who would be granted a visa I am sure) and those who come "on spec" or to work in the black economy.
As I have said the US, Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc all have controlled immigration policies. We have a controlled immigration policy from everywhere in the world apart from EU countries.
Freedom of movement is written into the EU treaties.
Thank goodness for that - we both benefit from this
The only thing they are taking seriously is that enough people are stupid enough to swallow UKIP BS (appropriate that this is a SNP thread as the same thing happened there). If they were being serious they would look at the facts not hysterical anecdote and bllx. But then again we have an election coming.
Tory concern for immigration just reflects need to stay in power in marginals not real concern over real issues. It's utter tosh....
The M4 and M40 were fine yesterday. All those nasty foreigners must have been in Oxford town centre
Immigration? Ask this guy.
Dennis loves the idea of an independent Scotland - [url= http://labourlist.org/2014/09/dennis-skinner-turns-down-pay-rise-and-urges-scots-to-vote-no/ ]http://labourlist.org/2014/09/dennis-skinner-turns-down-pay-rise-and-urges-scots-to-vote-no/[/url]
“I can’t understand some of the trade unionists falling for flag-waving in Scotland. It’s meaningless. We’re citizens of the world…I can’t remember anybody in the Scottish NUM saying to me they had a different agenda. The problems in Scotland were the same as the problems in Derbyshire, Durham, Yorkshire, South Wales and Kent. Nationalists divide working people when we should be united.”
"As for quantitative evidence we have very poor estimates for immigration as we don't actually keep records (eg no exit checks)."
There are no exit checks in the US, either. Australia has an open door policy to New Zealand. Bringing up Hong Kong's immigration policy as a model for the UK is even more bonkers - not only do they restrict migration by foreigners, they also restrict migration by people with the same citizenship. A dangerous suggestion for someone that has mentioned they'd like to migrate to Scotland upon retirement - you might find that you're not allowed to!
You'll be going on strike with your spanish, greek and bangladeshi comrades next time then? 😆bearGrease - Member
Dennis loves the idea of an independent Scotland - http://labourlist.org/2014/09/dennis-skinner-turns-down-pay-rise-and-urges-scots-to-vote-no/“I can’t understand some of the trade unionists falling for flag-waving in Scotland. It’s meaningless. We’re citizens of the world…I can’t remember anybody in the Scottish NUM saying to me they had a different agenda. The problems in Scotland were the same as the problems in Derbyshire, Durham, Yorkshire, South Wales and Kent. Nationalists divide working people when we should be united.”
bearGrease - Member
Dennis loves the idea of an independent Scotland...
Yes, that's the danger with ideologies, they bind good people into straitjackets so they can't see common sense. 🙂
I wonder what Dennis Skinner thinks of NuLab? It's certainly not the Labour party he joined and, being a socialist, he's been quite a misfit there for years. The Labour party now is probably right of the Tory party he hated as a lad.
Another 20 Dennis Skinners and Labour would still be the party of the people,albeit we would still have the 70's version of Labour.
And just like that, RAF search and rescue in Kinloss is being shut down. The study into it was completed in May,but the decision to close it was only announced yesterday. That took a while to announce what will be a very unpopular decision in outdoor circles...Still the UK government has said that the Highlands of Scotland will be perfectly well served from the new base in Hartfordshire.I am suprised;do they not realise that English people use the Scottish hills too?
And just like that, RAF search and rescue in Kinloss is being shut down. The study into it was completed in May,but the decision to close it was only announced yesterday. That took a while to announce what will be a very unpopular decision in outdoor circles...Still the UK government has said that the Highlands of Scotland will be perfectly well served from the new base in Hartfordshire.I am suprised;do they not realise that English people use the Scottish hills too?
Turning the issue of mountain rescue into Scotland v England I see. I encounter people from across the uk and the globe when walking and climbing in the Highlands.Just heard the story of a Brighton man requiring rescue when 400m from a carpark. Also there may be an adverse effect on EU fisherman in the North Sea.
I don't know the in's and out's and the loss of a few jobs in the area is not welcomed. Also a potential loss of knowledge of the nuances of Highland conditions and geography.
I think the issue of search and rescue is bigger than England getting one over on Scotland, although there is probably a group called ''Scotlands Climbers for Yes'' where I am sure impartial info can be gleaned.
It is HErtfordshire btw.
Isn't it just the control centre that's moving there?
From a purely operational point of view I don't think it matters if it's in Kinloss or Calais.
Also a potential loss of knowledge of the nuances of Highland conditions and geography.
Although this may be a valid point. I suspect that in practice it isn't, as the pilots of any new service (to be based a short distance away in Inverness) will still have that knowledge. Ultimately they are the final decision makers.
Am I right in thinking that the replacement service is broadly the same as the Coast Guard helicopters operation?
Which as far as I'm aware has been working pretty well. I'm prepared to read anything that contradicts this however!
I just assumed it was being centralised/consolidated to make privatisation easier.
At this stage in their lifespan, doing pretty much anything that ends the service of the Sea Kings is probably easier.
Saw quite a cool photo a one of the RNs being rescued by a Chinnok yesterday.
Apologies for the Record link 😛
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rescue-helicopter-gets-airlifted-safety-2474875
Was the image I was thinking of.
Not convinced about the outdoor outrage btw. I know a few in MRT who are concerned, but at the end of the day so long as the new operator turns up and lifts they'll be more than happy.
There was a similar airlift out of the Northern Corries a few years ago.
Well it'll be interesting to see how Jim Murphy's becoming Scottish Labour leader will affect NuLab's polling in Scotland. I'm not convinced it'll be seen as progress by those in the party concerned about it being controlled from London.
That'll be Jim Murphy MP?
That'll be Jim Murphy MP?
Indeed.
It's a pity - Sarah Boyack would have been a much better choice. Assuming Labour want to avoid electoral oblivion in Scotland of course - I'm hearing of Yes-supporting Labour types who voted for Murphy because they think it's time to kill off Scottish Labour.
Scottish Labour spent the whole referendum campaign standing alongside the Tories, and who do they elect as leader? An Iraq-war-supporting, expenses-fiddling, tuition-fee-supporting thin-skinned bully who didn't bother turning up for the vote on the bedroom tax.
Yup, that'll show us Labour are completely different to the Tories.
Isn't it just the control centre that's moving there?From a purely operational point of view I don't think it matters if it's in Kinloss or Calais.
you are right piemonster, I just wonder if centralising control may make aspects of departmental communication and training coordination within specific areas a bit harder, especially as search and rescue appears to involve a great deal of Chinese Whispers.
Shouldn't have thought so Athgray. It works perfectly well elsewhere, the operational resources, training, protocols and procedures should be robust enough.
Even when the call-out is coming in, there's no need for a face to face discussion and frantic pointing at maps. The flight crew will be doing this without the need for an air desk to point for them.
The problems with communicating locations largely arise from the person making the call, not the recipients. They are (should) be trained to not miss things out.
I'd be wary of any new system once it's first installed however, teething troubles are perfectly possible.
Has the oil price crisis ended the nationalists arguments once and for all? Surely even the most fervent nat is glad to be a part of the UK at the moment?
Has the oil price crisis ended the nationalists arguments once and for all? Surely even the most fervent nat is glad to be a part of the UK at the moment?
Nope, I'd still of rather we had gotten the Yes vote. The oil price wouldn't be doing us any favours, but many of were voting with more than economics in mind. Plus we'd still be in the UK at this point even with a yes vote. If the oil price is still this low in 2 years time then the budget would need some re-balancing, but I'm not going to pretend I know what the oil price will do.
What happened to the new areas of North Sea oil that Alex Salmond counjured up days before the final vote?
I'd only rather a yes vote if UKIP got into power. God help us all if that happens.
but many of were voting with more than economics in mind.
Odd that polls showed such a different story. Many were bought for a few hundred quid. And the rest by sugar coated fairy tales.
Odd that polls showed such a different story. Many were bought for a few hundred quid.
I didn't say all of us, or even a majority, but going by the opinions of those I know and a fair few of the posters on here.
And the rest by sugar coated fairy tales.
You can't help yourself with the cheap shots, eh?
Yes, it's revenge for subjecting us to Alex Salmond and unless the good people of Gordon see sense, it's going to continue. 😀
There were plenty of chances for you guys to tell the truth. Some even devoted a whole political lifetime to it, and still screwed it up. Remind us what wee eck's retorts were to anyone who said his oil price assumptions were a wee bit optimistic..... 😉 were they expensive shots (they sure would have been)?
Has the oil price crisis ended the nationalists arguments once and for all?
As a Green I'm all in favour of the oil industry collapsing, but I'm not a nationalist.
Anyhow, a No-voting friend gave me a present today - a signed copy of Alan Cochrane's "Alex Salmond: My Part In His Downfall" - looks entertaining 😉
Catchy title, 136 pages of reading pleasure for you or not ...
[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scotland-in-the-united-kingdom-an-enduring-settlement ]An Enduring Settlement[/url]