I think we established that everything they said was 100% true and definitely couldn't change after a Yes vote
😆
Would you be arguing like the DO that this was a once in a lifetime decision
The Deceitful one said once in a generation.
Asked if he would seek another referendum if there was a "No" vote on Thursday, the SNP leader said: "If you remember that previous constitutional referendum in Scotland - there was one in 1979 and then the next one was 1997."That's what I mean by a political generation.
"In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity for Scotland."
It really does not help your case if you call him a deceiver and then you inaccurately describe his statements. Damn them facts eh
was significantly watered down by Westminster parties before publication?
Really? the BBC says that changes happened "in the final days of the negotiations"
While the report makes it clear that
[i]This report sets out the agreement reached between all five of Scotland’s main political
parties: Conservative, Green, Labour, Liberal Democrat and the SNP.[/i]
So, like it or not, the SNP and Green party were signatories to the final version of the report!
So 18 years then? Nice! See you all in 2032 to start the discussion.
Can a MOD please close this thread to stop another year long argument that changes no ones opinion.
Junky, he did day once in a lifetime
From 1:15 seconds on the video linked
Marr: [i]"Can you pledge that Alex Salmond will not bring back another referendum if you don't win this one?"[/i]
Salmond: [i]"well, thats my view, my view this a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime, opportunity for Scotland"[/i]
I am sure AS is delighted by the weight you put in his opinion now lets see if the mods feel the same abut your opinion 😉
I think it will take something extraordinary for that timescale to not be the case. However this opinion wont stop people campaigning for it anymore than it will stop you being pro the union and campaigning for them to STFU or as they might describe it silence the locals like an Imperialistic overlord 😀
EDIT : I think the bit before where he say yo have said it is once in a generation is that still your view and he goes "yes" is a little less ambiguous than your quote. In context he adds that phrase at the end of thirty seconds repeating its once in a generation. I stand by what I said but accept you [ and others] can labour the point if you so wish but its a little disingenuous and unfair, though not impossible, to argue it thus
I should also add damn them facts but aimed at me this time 😳 but i would still call it spinning/cherry picking if you listen to the whole bit.
[quote=ninfan ]Marr: "Can you pledge that [b]Alex Salmond will not bring back another referendum[/b] if you don't win this one?"
Salmond: "well, thats my view, my view this a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime, opportunity for Scotland"
See that's the thing about him standing down as FM and leader of the SNP. [i]He[/i] won't be in a position to bring back another referendum.
Anyway, as I said back on Page 2 of this very thread..
17/18 years between Devo/Indy votes (1979, 1997, 2014) seems about right. I guess it will depend on how well these current proposals go down.
And as Junkyard says, the EU thing could make a big difference.
You never can predict the future: in a few years time Westminster might not be stuffed with an arrogant coterie of tossers, and the City of London not filled with self-serving blaggers. In which unlikely case we'll all feel proud to be part of this once-great nation.
[quote=slowoldgit ]You never can predict the future: in a few years time Westminster might not be stuffed with an arrogant coterie of tossers, and the City of London not filled with self-serving blaggers. In which unlikely case we'll all feel proud to be part of this once-great nation.
STW might not be full of argumentative gits. I suppose anything is possible.
Scotroutes, you don't need reminding I am sure that Nicola Sturgeon used the same words as well including the once in a lifetime bit.. So just because we are rid of the deceitful one for now, doesn't change what was said by yS proponents pre the result. I know they said a lot so false things during the process, are you now suggesting that we simply add this to a long list.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24147303
Beware, there is a lot of claptrap to endure before you get to the relevant bit
Of course she also said that a NO would mean no change which we can all see was yet another blatant untruth. Things have changed a lot - clearly.
More spinning than a merry go round but far less entertaining!!
Maybe it is time to accept the result and instead focus on improving Scotland and the UK. There is no mandate for another referendum in the foreseeable future.
To be fair. If your belief is that Scotland will be a better place once independent. Moving on from from losing the vote is trying to change public opinion. In order to create a new mandate for an independence vote.
The thing that intrigues me is will any moves to win over more of the middle classes result in alienating those at the bottom, thus generating higher levels of voter apathy amongst that segment of society.
You never can predict the future: in a few years time Westminster might not be stuffed with an arrogant coterie of tossers, and the City of London not filled with self-serving blaggers. In which unlikely case we'll all feel proud to be part of this once-great nation.
Emm..... sounds like your referring to a time when this was the case. Link please as I'm not aware of it ever being the case.
SOG, odd then that more people voted to remain part of such a dreadful once-great nation than the proposed utopia offered by independence!?!
At least, if it is another 17-20 years, yS might have done their homework by then and save us all the embarrassment of another book of dreams.
What would you describe a manifesto as if not a book of dreams? No political party ever delivers on it.
@ pieminster It is almost always the case. if you need links you will not be convinced.
@THM
4:42
Question: If you lose the referendum will that settle it for a generation?
Answer: Laughs/chuckles the SNP has always said in our view these events are a once in a generation event...probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.
I think you need to ignore the bits where they state their views and cherry pick [the bit they express with no certainity and some doubt ]if you wish to claim their stated view is that it is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
It really is that thread all over again and I am not doing this again THM is free to interpret what is said as he wishes but its driven by his politics as much as what is said.
I probably wont engage on it anymore
I possibly wont engage on it anymore
See what I did there 😉
🙂 at Minster of the pies
Can I claim it as deliberate 😉
Come the revolution, you can fight it out with Binners, for the job
Of course she also said that a NO would mean no change which we can all see was yet another blatant untruth
"No" was the answer. What was the question?
Given your previous voting record that would be Yes Pieminster?piemonster - Member
at Minster of the pies
Pie minister is a UK post. There are already two candidates. Nominations are now open for the Scottish post Thirst minister. Charlie Kennedy is barred.
gordimhor - Member
Charlie Kennedy is barred.
In which sense? 😉
I thought you'd dodge the question, and I was right.
Sorry what was "your" question? Couldn't answer as I couldn't understand it. The use of NO in the section highlighted is self explanatory.
teamhurtmore - Member
Scotroutes, you don't need reminding I am sure that Nicola Sturgeon used the same words as well including the once in a lifetime bit..
Ah, that is the beauty of democracy. The party leaders of the SNP are not our bosses.
The movement is bigger than the SNP and if we want another referendum, we will keep pushing for it.
Maybe people whose political model is topdown politics find it hard to understand what is happening in Scotland.
The movement is bigger than the SNP and if we want another referendum, we will keep pushing for it.
[IMG] 
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epicyclo - Member
Ah, that is the beauty of democracy. The party leaders of the SNP are not our bosses.
Indeed they are not. So equally no one can dismiss the lifetime/generation issue as merely the words of one man.
The movement is bigger than the SNP and if we want another referendum, we will keep pushing for it.
Indeed again, while hopefully respecting the democratic process that showed that a majority of Scots preferred to remain within the union. Please don't dismiss that desire as easily as your comments suggest. This is democracy remember?
Maybe people whose political model is topdown politics find it hard to understand what is happening in Scotland.
Easy to understand as the results suggest. Highly concentrated areas where independence is sought (Glasgow, Dundee etc - wonder why??) but even there not by overwhelming majority. In many other regions, the bottom up perspective shows that more people preferred the union than the overall results suggest. What's hard to understand. Despite strong tailwinds, the motion failed - largely because it's proponents treated people with complete disrespect by failing to prepare even the basic foundations. For that they will be/should be derided by BOTH sides.
teamhurtmore - Member
...In many other regions, the bottom up perspective shows that more people preferred the union than the overall results suggest...
I think what most people would prefer is a fully devolved Scottish govt, and the bulk of the independence seekers would accept that.
A federated UK with a properly democratic political system certainly appeals to me, but I think that we are less to get that than independence because the privileged parasites in the HoL will fight it to their last breath.
I keep saying this, but the independence movement is not being driven by the political parties. They are responding to it, not leading it.
I keep saying this, but the independence movement is not being driven by the political parties. They are responding to it, not leading it.
Indeed, hence the fact that "so many" SNP supporters voted NO!! 😉
Of course we can as the man [ AS] even said that it was his personal opinion [ we seem to not be discussing the lady anymore for some reason 😥 ]. I am not sure how he could have made it clearer for you tbh.So equally no one can dismiss the lifetime/generation issue as merely the words of one man.
Highly concentrated areas where independence is sought (Glasgow, Dundee etc - wonder why??) but even there not by overwhelming majority
Dundee had a higher % than voted no overall and Glasgow was 1 % under [57.35 and 53.49]. QED you are saying the no vote was not overwhelming an excellent point that explains why there is still debate.
a majority of Scots
It was a majority of those eligible to vote in Scotland it was not a vote of Scots.
Indeed, hence the fact that "so many" SNP supporters voted NO!!
So 14 % is many then 😕
Apart from the inaccuracy description quite funny 😀
teamhurtmore - Member
Indeed, hence the fact that "so many" SNP supporters voted NO!!
The big lie only works if people don't start laughing at you the moment you utter it.
Defeated? You're only defeated when you give up.You may have noticed we haven't given up.
And will not.
Ever.
Stirring stuff! Did you get it from Braveheart? Or Highlander?
The only whining I'm hearing is from the likes of you
No whining here. I'm loving the opportunity [s]to debate with[/s]taunt yS people!
The time will come again for the Scottish people to vote for independence but it will get even harder as the central govt will start to move people there a bit like the case of N.Ireland long time ago ...
To prevent similar faith as N.I. perhaps there should be a time limit for new migrants to Scotland to vote. i.e. new migrants from other places to Scotland should not have a vote for 5-10 years. The reason is simple you have tiny population.
Demoncracy only works well with strong local population.
Our experience with a local population of 3 million double to near 5.5 million in 2 generations means sooner or later we would be annexed (N.Borneo) ...
Oh ya ... keep saying no and never give up.
🙄
epicyclo - Member
The big lie only works if people don't start laughing at you the moment you utter it.
They would have to stop laughing at the fact that the SNP (clue is in the name) can't even bring it's own members along on their main raison d'être. The biggest joke of the whole thing, apart from DOs miserable attempts to hoodwink folk about the nature of the currency. And the main reason why more people voted NO was.....?
You can spin the basic facts as much as you like, but they stare right back at you. No wonder the taste is so bitter.
bearGrease - Member
"Defeated? You're only defeated when you give up.
You may have noticed we haven't given up.
And will not.
Ever."Stirring stuff! Did you get it from Braveheart? Or Highlander?
Nah, Mel Gibson would never have thought of that. William Wallace on the other hand would have...
As an independence supporter I'm happy for the Longshanks arselickers* to keep on taunting. Every day we get get more support, and I'm sure the contempt and taunts helps drive that.
* seeing as we're making Braveheart references I thought I could substitute an appropriate term for Unionists 🙂
The SNP aren't a single issue party, why are some people surprised that people can support some policies but not all? Seems silly. There's never been any doubt that a lot of SNP supporters wouldn't vote for independence- no more than it's surprising that supporters of unionist parties would vote yes.
There seems to be a lot of interchangable use of "voters" "supporters" and "members" here too.
Voting SNP does note make you a member. You are twisting things now too far in your shite attempt of a troll.
can't even bring it's own members along on their main raison d'être
they brought 86% of their voters along and we have no figure for their members - have you a stat ?- and yet you tell us about AS and his lies and spin. Oh deary me.
You can spin the basic facts as much as you like, but they stare right back at you
Indeed they do , indeed they do
FWIW IMHO the main reason they voted no was Project fear managed to sow enough uncertainty about the future to make the natural conservatism/reluctance of change make many people vote no. In particular the elderly/those with pensions
I dont personally think it was massive wave of positivity towards the union and more a fear of change /uncertainty.
AS did not help with his claims, which were unlikely to come true, but it was a weak yes vote, even THM called it not overwhelming, so hardly worthy of the triumphalism on show on this thread. TBH I am surprised so many non Scots GAS.
The journey is still a progress to devolution, thanks to the winners folding before the vote { i agree they did not need to they panicked], and I would still think it is likely /possible it will happen in my lifetime [ see what I did there] and there will definitely be another vote within my lifetime.
This thread will be just as the last one and i cannot keep repairing my irony meter so I shall leave you to be triumphant and spin against those who spin and lie and BS with "facts"
Northwind - Member
There seems to be a lot of interchangable use of "voters" "supporters" and "members" here too.
I am none of the above rather just a bystander.
It's between Edward Longshanks and his subjects. 😛
From the SNP website
About Us
The SNP is a social democratic political party [b]committed to Scottish independence. [/b]The party has been at the forefront of the campaign for Scottish independence for over seven decades.
QED - it's raison d'être. But do keep on spinning or should I say reeling! It's hilarious to hear this stuff enduring after the event. But excuse me thinking that SNP voters might think that this was a key issue. What was the swing factor, free bus passes in Cowdenbeath?
UKIP voters will be voting for fiscal union with Brussels next. "It doesn't matter, they are not a single issue party!!!" 😀
free bus passes in Cowdenbeath?
If the passes helped folk to get the hell out of Cowdenbeath they'd be onto a winner.
Someone had better tell Ruth Davison quickly!!
Your LGBT and "get out of Cowdenbeath" card all in one - also not a single issue party, the straight folk wanting out of C'beath could vote too, even those wanting to go TO C'beath as it sounds like a bit of a free for all up there.
There is a lot splitting hairs going on today. No one can escape the fact that the referendum result was to stay in the union. An independent Scotland is a far away dream I am afraid. I don't know what the current tactics of the yes campaign are, it is almost as if they want to bore everybody into submission by repeating the same old arguments.
Junkyard, I literally heard you groan when the topic of "would they/wouldn't they still be in the EU" was mentioned. It is only a matter of time before the "it's our pound" argument starts again.
After a comprehensive defeat the yes movement should not be trying to maintain momentum and keep up the pressure, they should instead go back to the drawing board and create a credible plan for an independent Scotland, you might want to start with what currency you would use 😉
fasternotfatter - MemberI don't know what the current tactics of the yes campaign are,
Making the most of what they did win, basically.
teamhurtmore - MemberBut excuse me thinking that SNP voters might think that this was a key issue. What was the swing factor, free bus passes in Cowdenbeath?
Of course it's a key issue. But it's not the only issue. A vote for the SNP at the elections wasn't a vote for independence, it was a vote for the SNP to govern in the Scottish Parliament. An election pledge was to deliver a referendum on independence but that doesn't mean that by voting SNP you want independence. Any more than a vote for a unionist party means you don't want independence.
The swing factor is that more and more people choose the SNP to run the country, because they like what they've done in power. Again I'm not sure you can genuinely fail to understand this sort of basic stuff.
they should instead go back to the drawing board and create a credible plan for an independent Scotland, you might want to start with what currency you would use
True, there is a first time for everything and a credible plan would be a start for sure.
@epic, of course most Yes supporters would accept full devolution as it's the best of both worlds, full political independence with the UK standing being Scotland financially if the Scots screw up.
The Yes campaigners are welcome to keep pushing on, we would expect them to do that. However they need to accept that they had a chance and they could not carry the argument. They should also accept the UKs right to hold a referendum to decide whether the Scots should be permitted another vote
fasternotfatter - MemberThere is a lot splitting hairs going on today. No one can escape the fact that the referendum result was to stay in the union.
Of course there is no escaping the result. The only thing the Scottish people can take away from this lesson is the fact DemonCracy works.
DemonCracy is about majority rule and if you have a tiny incumbent population that will work against you, especially with free migration. The same situation is happening with UK and EU technocrats now.
If Scotland really want to have a level playing field then they should:
1. Limit new migrants voting rights for a period of time.
2. Change the way voting is counted.
🙄
