[Closed] SNP. You LOST, get over it

Yes, you seem like someone who isn't upset at all

My views are very similar to THM, and I can can categorically assure you i'm not upset by the result, and I doubt he is either.

In fact i remember the morning of the 19th being one of the best parties I've ever had. How were you feeling that day by the way? 😉

Lets face it, whos more likely to be upset about the rsult on this thread? THM, or the man who knows deep down that his dream of an independent Scotland is as far off as it was 30 years ago 🙂

Disagreeing with someone isn't the same as saying they are wrong. You have said the result was "correct" as if there is such an objective "right" result. So in fact, it's you who is saying 45% of the voters are wrong. I don't think the 55% were/are wrong. Some of them voted for what they believed, I think some were conned and I hope to convince them to vote the other way next time. One thing we can agree on is that the result was a good one for Scotland. I believe what happens now will lead to the next referendum and will ultimately win it for the yes campaign. It's going to take longer than we'd hoped but independence for Scotland will happen in our lifetime.

It was correct. The grounds put forward for independence were very poor and fell over at the basic level of scutiny. That's why the result was what is was. Simple.

AS had a long time to prepare and failed.

Good luck with the next time. We all deserve better than the last display. Try answers to basic questions like the currency. Polls suggest that is why you lost, you couldn't answer simple questions on critical issues. It's not that hard and much better than relying on deceit and snake oil.

deceit and snake oil.

Try and keep up, the modern term for this is a "vow".

Thm, you might actually be surprised that a lot of agree with you, to a point(our analysis is likely to vary), that the yes movement needs to look inward rather than outward.

A lot of lessons have been learned..

A 200k swing is far from insurmuntable.

Incidently, I'm still not a nationalist but I just don't see any movement developing south of the border that would make me want to stay in the union. Operation drag the Tories further to the right(UKIP) isn't inspiring confidence.

BTW currency is one aspect where we agree. Having an argument where the other party can veto it(whether you believe them or not) was a mistake.

Not surprised at all 😉

Ditto, you are probably surprised by the fact that I generally support devolved power, just not under yS T&Cs!!!

Free hugs available in Dundee if it helps...

Team hurt more is hurting more.

You are not coming across very well, you shoulda been an mp, as they also fail to answer straight questions.

And as for yer sidekick 'jimbala' there is a village in England missing an idiot.

The most mature post so far?

Thanks PM, but the best thing about Dundee is that you have almost got to Carnoustie!

Just turning back to the heading of this thread "SNP You lost, get over it".

The thing is the SNP knows they lost, spent a day or two feeling miserable, and then were astounded when the people in the independence movement simply picked themselves up and kept going. Not only did they do that, they joined the SNP in their tens of thousands.

I don't think you can regard the cause as beaten when the SNP membership went from about 25,000 to almost 100,000 in just a few weeks following their "defeat".

The SNP is lagging behind the public sentiment of the independence movement, and I suspect their usual top down modus operandi may backfire on them unless they change it.

Ironically our biggest ally right now is UKIP. Every announcement of how they are going to cut Scotland's budget throws more petrol on the fire.

Ironically our biggest ally right now is UKIP. Every announcement of how they are going to cut Scotland's budget throws more petrol on the fire.

But the similarities are far more important than the differences.

Returning to the introspection bit, every announcement from AS about walking away from the debt (sic) threw plenty of petrol on the fire. 😉

maybe you're old enough to remember the tail end of the empire

it's understandable that you'd feel threatened that so many people don't feel the same way

Thanks PM, but the best thing about Dundee is that you have almost got to Carnoustie

That's the first straight answer you have given.
If you could please get on with answering the rest that'd be great.

Odd that you are interested in answers, given your earlier comment...

steffybhoy - Member
You obviously haven't done your homework.
POSTED 5 DAYS AGO # REPORT-POST

Let you know when I have finished. Lot to learn so I can keep up with you.....

teamhurtmore - Member
Returning to the introspection bit, every announcement from AS about walking away from the debt (sic) threw plenty of petrol on the fire.

And if we declare a UDI, we won't be taking it either. 🙂

What I am against is BS

I know, tough isn't it!!!

And if we declare a UDI

we won't be taking it either.

bearGrease - Member
"And if we declare a UDI"
Just keep ranting on about UDI, it merely exposes the low contempt you hold democracy in. Great work! Keep it up!...

Thanks. Like an ever increasing number of Scots, I will keep it up. It is the contempt for democracy displayed by the Westminster govt that drives us on.

Democracy is when the majority of a sovereign people decide. This does not require the permission of a government and can override the government.

This applies in countries where the sovereignty derives from the people (eg Scotland), as opposed to where the sovereignty is derived from the parliament (England). The Treaty of Union did not alter the sovereignty in the respective countries.

A UDI can only happen when there is a majority so it will be democratic.

Check out what the sovereign people of Iceland did with their govt after the GFC.

[img] ?oh=9f1fd29257be1e70ff0a51fb4d1ef20a&oe=5503602D&__gda__=1426970353_3ea336ccd52f3423bfb21dbd3a5554cd[/img]

Democracy is when the majority of a sovereign people decide.

[img] [/img]

Did you miss us abiding by the result?

Democracy is not absolute. We are free to continue campaigning.

unknown - Member
I believe what happens now will lead to the next referendum and will ultimately win it for the yes campaign. It's going to take longer than we'd hoped but independence for Scotland will happen in our lifetime.

OMFG the Berlin wall just fell down.
Praise God! The civil war that's been raging for 30 years has ended.
The Russians just invaded and annexed us.

If anything of that ilk occurs in the UK then I guess we've got bigger problems than Scotland being independent. But the point is that you will never reach independence from where you are now by an incremental, negotiated movement. It's not something you inch towards.

I imagine the prospect of two salaries for two jobs at the same time is hard to resist. I think that needs to be looked at, you shouldn't be able to hold two representative offices at the same time. Should apply to everyone btw

We are free to continue campaigning.

Indeed, and looking at the maps and results there are lots of folk who got it wrong. 😉

Just do everyone a favour and do a bit of preparation next time. It would save a lot of time, expense and embarrassment (oh and trees).

as who can predict the future?

Keep up at the back. Half the posters on this thread have fully functioning crystal balls 😀

teamhurtmore - Member
We are free to continue campaigning.
Indeed, and looking at the maps and results there are lots of folk who got it wrong.
Just do everyone a favour and do a bit of preparation next time. It would save a lot of time, expense and embarrassment (oh and trees).

Prep is well under way.

My actual thinking is that I do agree that there were too many questions left open. That can't happen next time.

I also think that the make up of the parliament needs to be 65+% next time. And that it needs demonstrably govern differently from Westminster so that people have a better idea what they were voting for.

It was far too easy for people to paint a picture that and IS would just be a smaller clone of what exists.

It was far too easy for people to paint a picture that and IS would just be a smaller clone of what exists.

Surely not, AS told everyone how he was able to re-write basic truisms. This was going to be completely new (dream) world.

First item on the biased (sic) BBC news - aaarggghhhh

If proper democracy doesn't work, try exploiting the position of a minority power broker. The ultimate irony!!!

Forget the means, it's the ends that count!!!!

@kona many jobs have restrictions to say you can't hold two posts. What AS is doing just shows that being an MP / MSP isn't a full time job as far as he's concerned.

It will be interesting to see if he can win, with the Lib Dems having a 6000 vote majority it's by no means certain

many jobs might have that restriction but not many jobs are like MPs where thousands of people vote to see if you get it! if everyone else agrees with you that it's a crap idea, he won't get the job; if they don't, he will. I think it's a crap idea but that is my opinion and others will disagree. FWIW MPing has never been considered a full time job - look at all the MPs who are practising professionals or have outside business interests.

Why the 'silence' over how well the sunken island of Iceland is doing?

austerity, capital controls and massive debt?

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/34ab12fc-0d9b-11e4-815f-00144feabdc0.html

@BearGrease - very interesting chart. Just shows how concentrated the Yes vote is in and around Glasgow. Amusing to think about all the discussion of "Scotland's Oil", its the Glaswegians claiming it for themselves - I wonder what those in the North would have to say about that, we know what Shetland and Orkney think. All the borders pro the Union and of course Edinburgh where all the business especially financial services are.

jambalaya - Member

It will be interesting to see if he can win, with the Lib Dems having a 6000 vote majority it's by no means certain

Definitely an interesting development.

I can imagine the Westminster parties are going to throw all their resources into making sure he doesn't win.

But we don't want THM to lose his purpose in life, so let's hope Salmond wins the seat. 🙂

I think the EVEL contingency will be surprised to find that he's actually on their side. Who knows, his presence may fire up stronger popular interest in regional devolution in the rest of the UK.

Having looked at epicyclo's picture above, I'm amazed that Yes lost when they had representative groups like "Cabbies for Yes", "Hong Kong for Yes", and "Africans for an Independent Scotland" as part of the campaign.

As he is fond of saying "the truth is out there" So I should point out
THM seems to have left out the fact he wants to preserve the status quo as he might fancy living here again,

From a selfish perspective, I may well be returning to Scotland to live and hence I would like to see the country's best interest served.

Aye up, sorry to be late to the discussion you are all getting it wrong again. It's Freedom for Yorkshire that we need.

From the Telegrapgh (quite an interesting article if I may say so) [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/11278658/Watch-out-Westminster-Alex-Salmond-wants-back-in.html ]link: AS wants back in[/url]

[i]Mr Salmond says he is standing for Gordon because he wants to continue serving the people of North East Scotland. But most of his opponents, and even a few of his colleagues, reckon his decision is more to do with serving his ego. He also claims that he wants to wring more powers for Holyrood out of Westminster. But he has still not fully accounted for the fact that it was he, almost alone, who lost the referendum thanks to his nonsensical economic policy.

....

And what about Mr Salmond’s own side? Will Nicola Sturgeon, who has escaped from Wee Eck’s shadow to become SNP leader and Scotland’s new First Minister, view with equanimity the prospect of him getting all the headlines at Westminster? Somehow, I doubt it.[/i]

@duckman - I have never characterized the whole of Scotland as devious and dishonest, that's just AS and his SNP cronies. The English wealth fund for fracking was one in the eye for the SNP as is granting control of corporation tax to Northern Ireland, a power that will not be granted to Scotland. When the SNP set themselves up to be disruptive and to crow about the demolition of the "Westminster parties" any reaction is guaranteed to be similarly robust.

Thing is, SNP have done just what they did last time and shot their bolt too early

Mary Doll has announced that the cost of coalition with the Labour Party would be Trident out of Faslane

There's no way that Ed or the rest of the Labour Party can agree to that, as capitulation to such a demand would be politically toxic as the blatant blackmail it would be.

Of course it was also interesting to hear Salmon slagging off the Smith commission conclusions, given that the SNP played a full part in the formation of, and signed off on, the final agreed version...

Why is getting rid of Trident so toxic? A vote winner up here,thats for sure. That is the price that Labour will have to pay...Of course they could be principled and say...actually scrub that.

Picking Trident is an interesting one as that's quite likely to split Labour as they are by no means universal in their support fot it.

ninfan - Member
...There's no way that Ed or the rest of the Labour Party can agree to that, as capitulation to such a demand would be politically toxic as the blatant blackmail it would be...

Politically toxic, eh? Is that because it would then have to move to a port in England?

Be fun to see how much enthusiasm the Unionist hawks could muster for Trident if it had to be parked near their seaside homes.*

Atomic NIMBYism?

Which region of England has the most disposable population? We may find out.

*I'd sooner see it scrapped though.

No, the politically toxic aspects are

I) cost
Ii) unilateral disarmament (see Labour party history for that one)
Iii) voters and party members opinion on capitulation to blackmail by the SNP as a minor coalition partner

I do wish the scots would get over the canard of thinking that having nuclear weapons located in England was some sort of big political sensitivity down here, they seem to forget that Aldermaston and Burghfield are in the middle of The south of England, and most of the rest of it was dotted with USAF strike bases and GLCM sites.

ninfan - Member
...I do wish the scots would get over the canard of thinking that not wanting nuclear weapons relocated to England was some sort of big political Sensitivity down here, they seem to forget that in Aldermaston and Burghfield are in the middle of The south of England

Oh, good. So there will be no opposition to moving the nuclear subs down there. Think of the jobs, the blast radius, the fallout patterns, the mutant children....

[url= http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ ]Och, check it out for yourself
[/url]

yes, look at the huge opposition ove the years to the two nuclear submarine servicing sites at Pompey and Davenport

And the crowds of people outside Aldermaston demanding they remove the warheads, the place is [b]literally[/b] ringed with protesters

[img] [/img]

OK. You want them, you have them.

Labour is for Trident, its a national commitment to NATO, US etc. Faslane is the best place for the subs to allow them to slip out into the North Atlantic with lowest chance of detection. For the SNP to make it a condition is non-nonsensical. AS only concern is more powers for Scotland, he won't get hung up on any details like Trident. He will make he argument that once they are independent they can do what they want. Interesting the Yes support is so far from the base really isn't it.

Epic,, but you lot voted to keep them.

Democracy eh, what a bugger 😆

@epic - we do have them. Faslane is in the UK 😉

Is the cost of moving them more than the cost of replacing them? I doubt it. Of course was it not you who said Engerland,sorry rUK should just annexe faslane? 🙄
I am starting to believe you do belong in a village Jambalaya,getting rid of the subs is not just a SNP thing,you know;a bit like independence...But carry on spouting shite,you have already admitted on this thread that you are more interested in seeing the SNP put in it's place than anything else.

ninfan - Member
Epic,, but you lot voted to keep them.

Democracy eh, what a bugger

Democracy is a bugger, it's outdated and needs refreshed. The idea of having to agree to a conjured up set of arbitrary proposals conjured up by a party is ridiculous. (Pretty much why I've shy-ed away from joining any party).

The technology is there to set up a real democracy where we can vote issue by issue and do away with party politics.

Bit of a scandal, if you ask me, that we stick to an outdated archaic version of democracy.

As for nukes, I don't particularly care where they are stored, their location is irrelevant, I just don't think we should be paying for them.

The SNP lied all during the campaign but it got it's just desert, see the Telegraph quote above, it was AS's insistence of failing to answer the obvious major questions like currency which lead to him steering them to defeat. It's my view the "opinion polls" showing the contest was close where nonsense (it's easy to sway the result by picking the question, how and whom you ask). Referendum was a clear loss. Both the Scots and the UK dodged a bullet because a yes would have meant lose (UK) and lose big (Scotland)

The map clearly shows Glasgow and Dundee where for independence and everywhere else against. I can see why an industrial city dependent upon it's port would do anything for change, the fact Edinburgh would have lost big would probably have been a plus too for them.

Glasgow is dependent on it's port? do you know anything about Glasgow? 😆

A 200k swing is close.

The technology is there to set up a real democracy where we can vote issue by issue and do away with party politics.

You really want direct democracy?

Including on issues like Europe, immigration, international aid and capital punishment?

ninfan - Member
The technology is there to set up a real democracy where we can vote issue by issue and do away with party politics.
You really want direct democracy?

Including on issues like Europe, immigration, international aid and capital punishment?

But things like immigration, scotland needs a vastly different policy from the rest of the uk. And regions should have a veto on the leaving europe issue. Capital punishment, that's off the table. international aid, probably something to be kept at union level, but there should be some form of democratic veto, to stop aid developing into war.

What do you think the result would be if they ran the poll again tomorrow, with Devo Max on the card? I'm thinking a lot less than 45% would want independence.

If they run another poll in the next 20 years surely the folks at westminster wouldn't be stupid enough to leave that option off the table, which would mean there would have to be a much bigger swing than 200000 votes.

Independence aint happening any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime.

pbiker - Member
What do you think the result would be if they ran the poll again tomorrow, with Devo Max on the card? I'm thinking a lot less than 45% would want independence.

If they run another poll in the next 20 years surely the folks at westminster wouldn't be stupid enough to leave that option off the table, which would mean there would have to be a much bigger swing than 200000 votes.

Independence aint happening any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime.

It's a fairly irrelevant question though, since the Smith commission is ment to be delivering devomax.

I'd suggest if there's a new poll having a 3 question referendum would be viewed with suspicion, as we're supposed to have devomax, as close to federalism as you can get..

Glasgow is dependent on it's port? do you know anything about Glasgow?

Being a cynic/realist about politics the chances of Scotland being offered another referendum must be close to zero. Aside from the fact the last one dragged on for 2 years, it was only granted as Cameron thought there was no chance Yes could win. As for referendums on this that and everything they have them in Switzerland every 5 mins, seems a bit toublesome

The SNP lied all during the campaign but it got it's just desert,

Far too wet for any deserts up here, old chap.

Just or otherwise.

What do you think the result would be if they ran the poll again tomorrow, with Devo Max on the card? I'm thinking a lot less than 45% would want independence.

It depends how the vote was structured. If it was one only from the status quo, devomax or independence then my guess is that none would come close to a majority but that independence would get the biggest share of the vote. If it was either/or then I'd suggest independence would get about the same as last time and devomax would probably be the most popular option.

Independence aint happening any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime.

You are probably correct however depending on what happens with UK politics there may well be another referendum in your lifetime (although whether it's sanctioned or unsanctioned will be interesting). Especially if Westminster politics continues its drift to the right.

A Tory/UKIP coalition would make another referendum very likely, as would a Tory majority government. A Labour majority in the UK but without a majority in England might also do it, as might Labour having to rely on SNP support.

tpbiker - Member
...Independence aint happening any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime.

I'm sorry to hear about your impending demise... 🙂

jambalaya - Member
From the Telegrapgh (quite an interesting article if I may say so) link: AS wants back in

Allan Cochrane is not an objective commentator. If you care to check out his writings you may even suspect him of being a major BS artist and regard his utterances on even those he does support with equal scepticism.

Direct democracy would be terrible, you'd have people voting based on what hashtag was trending on Twitter and how many likes an MP had on Facebook.

jambalaya - Member
As for referendums on this that and everything they have them in Switzerland every 5 mins, seems a bit toublesome

Maybe, but the current system is not democratic, I'd rather trust the people than the charlatans we have in charge.

Party politics is outdated and increasingly irrelevant.

plyphon - Member
Direct democracy would be terrible, you'd have people voting based on what hashtag was trending on Twitter and how many likes an MP had on Facebook.

Aye it's much better to leave politics to the few that know what they are doing eh! 😆

come on, politics has lead us to a choice of Milliband or Cameron. It's broken.

incidently, direct and localised democracy also answers the west lothian question if it was done right..

But things like immigration, scotland needs a vastly different policy from the rest of the uk. And regions should have a veto on the leaving europe issue.

So, you don't really want direct democracy for everyone then

Capital punishment, that's off the table.

Why should it be off the table in a democracy?

international aid, probably something to be kept at union level, but there should be some form of democratic veto, to stop aid developing into war.

It's a very mixed up version of pick and choose direct democracy you appear to be suggesting here, really it appears that you only want democracy on the issue where you are confident everyone else will agree with you...

ninfan - Member
Capital punishment, that's off the table.
Why should it be off the table in a democracy?

Nothing should be completely of the table, if you can gather enough support for it, we'll have a referendum. I think you'll struggle though, but batter in.

But things like immigration, scotland needs a vastly different policy from the rest of the uk. And regions should have a veto on the leaving europe issue.
So, you don't really want direct democracy for everyone then.

Eh, so you don't want democracy when it comes to how much aid is given to poverty stricken countries (for example those withnuclear weapons and their own space programme) but you do want us to ask everyone before going to war?
It's a very mixed up version of pick and choose direct democracy you appear to be suggesting here, really it appears that you only want democracy on the issue where you are confident everyone else will agree with you...

Yes I do, democracy could easily be compartmentalised on a regional basis. There is no contradiction in having parts regionalised and parts of it nationalised or allowing that to be fluid.

I think it's obvious that there is not central solution to everything.

Do you honestly believe only having a say every 5 years is acceptable?

ninfan - Member
...So, you don't really want direct democracy for everyone then

Yes it is difficult to decide exactly how to set up a democracy. Put it down to lack of experience of democratic government.

The UK govt is a travesty.

It seems to me people here want the definition of democracy to be a government that supports their views and if this means a smaller and smaller voter base (ie constituency/country) then so be it. This misses the point that the most successful countries very much tend to be the large ones. Scale and consistency outdoes small vested interest groups.

IMO the developed world is moving politically more and more to the right. The traditional left leaning workers are moving into different sorts of jobs and their work is now done elsewhere in a lower cost location like Asia.

I do see it as very interesting the dominance of Glasgow and Dundee in the referendum votes for a Yes.

I think it's a true-ism that some of the least content don't vote as they don't see the point, however they are perpetuating their own situation. Add this to unreasonable expectations and you have a recipe for a life of grumbling.

@epic - how is the UK Govt a travesty, the Labour party presided over a financial disaster, whether this was strictly their fault or not there was always likely to be a change. The Labour party was spending money we didn't have and in an environment where the banks/markets where not prepared or indeed able to keep lending. There had to be a change.

the most successful countries very much tend to be the large ones

What is a successful country to you?

Have to laugh I don't like democracy because I don't like the system of handing a proxy to 1 person for 5 years. 😆

I'm quite happy to lose on issues. Smaller direct democracy will not always agree with me.

Love how this resorts back to the tribalness. Labour presided over a fanancial disastor. Well the debt was 500b when they left. It's now 1.5 trillion.

Neither of them have a Scooby what they are doing. (That's my kind analysis, I think we all know the reality is more selfish)

One measured by most normal standards, quality of life, wealth, security, opportunity.

But @seosamh had the Tories kept spending as Labour had done the debt would be much much larger.

[quote=rene59 ]

the most successful countries very much tend to be the large ones

Look at all those global superpowers 🙄

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/10301496/Denmark-the-worlds-happiest-country.html

UK was #22.

Nice list there scotroutes.
But the doubters on here think the lights would go out if Scotland were to go it alone

jambalaya - Member
@epic - how is the UK Govt a travesty

This sort of thing:

[img] [/img]

Anyone making an objective assessment of democracy would be appalled by an unelected upper house full of billionaires who have bribed their way in to a position of influence, Anglican priests, appointed political hacks, and hereditary born to rule types.

There's a couple of examples of travesty.