[quote=fasternotfatter ]Scotroutes wins todays prize for out of date obscure graph from a website no one has heard of.You mean "a website [i]you've[/i] never heard of". Do you think Labour have moved left since 2010?
The only way they could move left is to splash the cash, we don't have any cash to splash I am afraid. Neither would Scotland if it was independent. Aren't you glad Scotland is still a part of the UK?
No
There would have been some seriously austere times coming had Scotland chosen independence.
There are anyway, with most economic growth currently based on very London-centric jobs and a property bubble, wages still declining, and many more cuts to come. And that's before businesses flee the country when the morons drag us out of Europe.
I guess we can rely on every scot to vote against leaving the EU then. Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.
fasternotfatter - Member
...Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.
It will be, when we get it.
Ben have you forgotten just how exposed the Scottish economy is to two very mature industries (one of which has volatile and currently low prices) and another one owned mainly by Johnny Foreigner?
ComRes EU Referendum Poll:
UK:
Stay: 32%
Leave: 48%
Scotland:
Stay: 45%
Leave: 36%
Blah blah, **** blah. Watch the money masters, then u will 'see' it doesn't matter who 'YOU' vote for.
Stupid people.
Believing that is how they win.
Now that the independence movement is over I guess it is time to start making the UK work and campaigning for change that benefits the whole of the UK. I take it there will be a lot of positive voices from Scotland extolling the virtues of staying in the EU. After all an independent Scotland would not have wanted it's biggest trading partner out of the EU would it? Potential import/export tariffs and a border to cross where you have to show your passport, this would not benefit Scotland at all. Rather than trying to show how divided Scotland is from the rUK shouldn't Scots be working to keep the UK in the EU.
[quote=fasternotfatter ]Now that the independence movement is over
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Nice to see that my sense of humour is not lost on everyone 😆
shouldn't Scots be working to keep the UK in the EU
The SNP and the Greens are committed to this, but unfortunately Scotland is outnumbered 10:1 - not much Scots can do when Westminster and the media (and the public in the rest of the UK) are going the opposite way.
OH just had to explain what "Red Tories" were to our 4-year-old, though - she saw a big banner saying "Red Tories Out" 😉
epicyclo - Member
fasternotfatter - Member
...Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.
It will be, when we get it.
So just because you lost the vote, the issue becomes undemocratic???
Everyone stated what a wonderful example of democracy the referendum was including a very high turnout and a high level of engagement. Are you guys never satisfied.
There used to be a joke among E'burgh taxi drivers at the airport about the London shuttle - you could tell which plane it was because when the engines stopped you could hear (the English) whining, I think the target of that joke needs changing.
No wonder there is such support for the EU given it's tradition of ignoring democratic decisions!
So just because you lost the vote, the issue becomes undemocratic???
The referendum was democratic. Westminster is not.
Ben certain aspects of Westminster are not democratic and could be improved. Labour are talking about replacing the lords with an elected senate, so things could be looking a lot better sooner than you think. Scottish votes could decide whether we have Cameron in charge again, So I don't think Scots should be looking to punish Labour for being on the same side as the Tories in the independence referendum. I am not saying abandon the SNP but I wouldn't rule out asking Scots to vote tactically to oust the Tories from Scotland.
Sorry, but that's what we're told time and time again. We need to vote Labour to get the Tories out. It's our responsibility to protect everyone else from the Tories. We need to forget what's best for Scotland and vote for what's best for the UK.
Bollocks to that. We've tried it again and again, and look where it's got us - there's naff all difference between Labour and the Tories. Labour started the dismantling of the NHS with foundation hospitals. Labour was more than happy to go along with the Thatcherite privatisation agenda. Labour is firmly behind the UKIP-led anti-immigration policies.
No more.
Help me O BEN One COOPER you are our only hope
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Labour are talking about replacing the lords with an elected senate, so things could be looking a lot better sooner than you think.
Or a lot worse....!
[quote=fasternotfatter ]Labour are talking about replacing the lords with an elected senate,Wow. It's like [s]1988[/s] 2007 all over again.
OH just had to explain what "Red Tories" were to our 4-year-old, though - she saw a big banner saying "Red Tories Out"
Bet she was pleased she'd asked! 🙁
I bet PM Churchill, after WWII, thought that the formation of EU meant the British could be in charged etc. Hey PM Churchill are you turning in your grave yet? Your future weaklings have practically negotiated away all that the nation's rights and "independence" by bowing to shite technocrat like this ...
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Bet she was pleased she'd asked!
Probably was - always wants to know stuff. It can be quite exhausting, especially before I've had my first coffee of the morning. I once ended up agreeing to show her how to make gunpowder - luckily she got distracted by something but she'll remember eventually.
Your future weaklings have practically negotiated away all that the nation's rights and "independence" by [s]bowing to shite technocrat like this[/s] doing everything the US tells us to do
FTFY
epicyclo - Member
fasternotfatter - Member
...Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.
It will be, when we get it.
We had the referendum the SNP wanted.
Really, you defeated separatists really come across as what Dr. Spooner would have described as a bunch of shining wits.
bencooper - Member
Your future weaklings have practically negotiated away all that the nation's rights and "independence" [s]by bowing to shite technocrat like this[/s] [b]doing everything the US tells us to do[/b]FTFY
Are you saying Mexican is in charged? 😆
Are you saying Mexican is in charged?
Yes? Or No? To be honest I don't understand the question.
teamhurtmore - MemberSo just because you lost the vote, the issue becomes undemocratic???
I'm pretty sure you're intentionally misunderstanding tbh. The referendum was democratic of course. But the result has meant the continuation of an overtly undemocratic system, with unelected lawmakers (some of whom get the job for being religious leaders ffs, but only as long as they're from the right sect of christianity) and good old fptp.
There used to be a joke among E'burgh taxi drivers at the airport about the London shuttle - you could tell which plane it was because when the engines stopped you could hear (the English) whining, I think the target of that joke needs changing.
Given the non-stop whine-a-thon you seem to be having, I'd disagree with that last sentence.
Really, you defeated separatists really come across as what Dr. Spooner would have described as a bunch of shining wits.
The only whining I'm hearing is from the likes of you, obviously annoyed that we wont get back in our box.
It is an oddly persistent view, that since we lost the referendum we should all give up on the idea of independence and just accept the status quo. Imagine if that applied in ohter situations:
"The Tories won the last election, so Labour voters should stop supporting Labour?
"Your footbal team lost, so you should stop supporting them and start supporting a winning team"
Realy, I think it's being wishful. The No people know they won, but they feel like they lost. Labour, especially, know that they're in serious trouble in Scotland, so are trying to desperately pretend the whole thing didn't happen - witness Gordon Brown's ridiculous "press reset" speech.
bearGrease - Member
...Really, you defeated separatists really come across as what Dr. Spooner would have described as a bunch of shining wits.
Defeated? You're only defeated when you give up.
You may have noticed we haven't given up.
And will not.
Ever.
Maybe it is time to accept the result and instead focus on improving Scotland and the UK. There is no mandate for another referendum in the foreseeable future.
You may have noticed we blah blah blah
Nobody is listening. You can always emigrate from the UK if you don't like the outcome of the once in a lifetime democratic vote.
It is an oddly persistent view, that since we lost the referendum we should all give up on the idea of independence and just accept the status quo. Imagine if that applied in ohter situations:
Other situations like if no had lost the referendum?
I'm sure you would be bending over backwards to accommodate the desire of the no voters to not give up on the chance of reunion with another referendum in a couple of years?
Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime...
ninfan - Member
...Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime...
Well, seeing as it's being going on for over 100 years, that's unlikely.
There is no mandate for another referendum in the foreseeable future.
Even you are not prepared to say there will never be another vote because we all know there will. That is why they wont give up.
Nobody is listening.
he said on the 7 th page of the thread
Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime just as ban hunting ended that pantomime 😈
FTFY
Potential import/export tariffs and a border to cross where you have to show your passport, this would not benefit Scotland at all.
Aw jeez not this stuff again
we never quite resolved the EU issue now did we
GOD PLEASE NO
[url= http://www.oil-price.net/ ]http://www.oil-price.net/[/url]
No safe home in the Eurozone, no oil bonanza, no chance of an independent Scotland.
ninfan - MemberI'm sure you would be bending over backwards to accommodate the desire of the no voters to not give up on the chance of reunion with another referendum in a couple of years?
Within reason, yup- it'd take more than a couple of years of course, start a reunion campaign, get the mandate to pursue it in the general election, gain support from Westminster etc but why wouldn't we? That's the thing about democracy, you don't go around telling people they never get the thing they want because they lost once in the past
Course, the No parties would all be totally against it- at least, that's what they said in the referendum campaign, there's no way back from independence and I think we established that everything they said was 100% true and definitely couldn't change after a Yes vote 😉
bencooper - Member
It is an oddly persistent view, that since we lost the referendum we should all give up on the idea of independence and just accept the status quo. Imagine if that applied in ohter situations:
As in a yes vote?
Would you be arguing like the DO that this was a once in a lifetime decision, or that unionists should be give up on the idea of a union?
There was enough bllx spouted during the campaign can we not have a break now?
[b]Slight hijack alert[/b] because Ben needs explanation ... 😆
bencooper - Member
Are you saying Mexican is in charged?Yes? Or No? To be honest I don't understand the question.
The migration of S.Americans(incl Mexican) to merica will inevitably result in a vote for a certain party. Therefore, if migration cannot be control a certain party will have an advantage over others. Hence, the "Mexican" is in charge coz they are just right at the border of merica and migration either legal or illegal mean one day they will be the majority voters. As a result, if British govt " ... doing everything the US tells us to do" it will be like saying follow the Mexican ... 😆
Now, [u][b]IMO[/b][/u] if you are in EU and with free migration the balance of power will become imbalance as the new migrants will likely to vote for political party(s) that supports their values. Therefore, for political party(s) that wants to be in position of power they will do all they can to secure these votes and being in EU means they (political party(s)) will always get support ...
My experience in N.Borneo is exactly that with mass migration within two generations (corrupted politicians granting voting rights/citizenship to illegal immigrants) that resulted in the local voting rights being diminished. i.e. the new migrants population is slowly overshadowing the locals. We have similar Union (like UK) with with three regional states forming a country but due to one region (where central govt is with the main political party) wanting to be in charge, they turn a blind eye or encourage the allocation of voting rights to the illegals (who due to same religion domination want to annex us in the long run).
Now, if British govt stays in EU then the likelihood of not having control over own destiny is very high. A bit like Scotland in UK where the power given to Scotland is negligible.
I bet the formation of EU immediately after WWII was to counter CCCP as Dear Leader Stalin was a bit eager to expand his territory.
Scotland has the dilemma of siding the lesser evil. For the time being it is "better the devil you know (than the devil you don't)" and EU is the latter in evolution while remaining in UK might be a better option for now until Scotland can truly take charge of own destiny.
It is better to be poor and in charge of own destiny than be well off with your life in others' hands bowing. You choose.
😛
Edit: Scotland will eventually be an independence country but the road ahead is tough because your "local" population is tiny. If the central govt wants to get very nasty all they need to do is simply move the prosperity of "London" to one part of Scotland and the population migration will be instant. Guess what ... the new population will easily out vote the local to remain in UK.
Fortunately the independent and cross party smith commission report should see an end to this whole pantomime...
The Smith report that even the BBC are reporting was significantly watered down by Westminster parties before publication? The Smith report that's only a bunch of recommendations, some recycled from the Calman Commission, that still has to get passed by Westminster?
Yes, no thanks.
