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Kelvin.
Whilst the aviation industry has been shut down by order of the state, as you say, I'm thinking about the future of industry. If, for arguments sake, all government restrictions were removed tomorrow, the demand would be much lower than before and future geowth prospects would be less than would potentially be the case for other industries
So pinning your hopes on the world economy returning to normal, not just any time soon but maybe ever seems to me to be either extremely short sighted or extremely optimistically long sighted. Better to focus on potential growth areas moving forward than spending too much money on preserving businesses that may be a poor fit in the brave new world we now find ourselves in.
Miliband has been everywhere today doing a good job on the “sending the workers back into the workplace, without reassurances”… was never PM material in my eyes, but has turned out to be a great appointment in his current role.
Better to focus on potential growth areas moving forward than spending too much money on preserving businesses that may be a poor fit in the brave new world we now find ourselves in.
And the people working in that industry? Medium term, many will be looking to shift to a ‘growth’ area… in the short term, if the government doesn’t help to keep them in work, many we’ll be seriously hit. The Labour statement linked to still looks completely sound to me.
inkster - see link re Qatar Airlines; no recovery until 2023/4.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-qatar-airways/qatar-airways-sees-slow-recovery-in-travel-from-pandemic-idUKKBN22N1TF
Also, they have billed trainee pilots for c£130k each as part of their training agreement - in place so employer can recover costs if trainee walks but now being applied as employer has ended the training.
Kelvin - what 'growth' areas are you referring to? Brexit transition will bring increased risk to financial services and multiple other sectors from a combination of EU competition, predatory US deals and prolonged timescales to complete trade deals; we have few core manufacturing industries and they generally have low productivity compared with their competitors - granted, we have a small number of leading high tech industries.
Educational standards of the UK workforce are lower than many other industrialised nations.
Automation will continue to develop with a consequent impact on jobs.
Green revolution? Lots of fine words for years but no real action.
I have posted previously that we have deceived ourselves into believing we are a prosperous nation - we aren't as we don't have a solid manufacturing base.
Services are ephemeral and portable; retail, except for groceries and other essentials, has taken a pasting from which it will struggle to recover - selling coffee, sandwiches and cheap clothes do not provide the foundations for a robust economy.
There isn't much of an upside.
I refer, again, to Warren Buffett - it's only when the tide goes out you see who's been swimming naked.
The tide is still going out and will continue to for several months.
what ‘growth’ areas are you referring to?
Dunno, Inkster suggested leaving the employees in one sector high and dry, and investing in other potential growth areas instead… whatever they may be… I was pointing out that workers can’t shift from one sector to another overnight, and still need short term help.
So should the gov provide (short term) support to sectors which are unlikely to survive in their present form - by that I mean doing what they currently do and at the same scale.
Hard to justify, either way.
As for potential growth areas, I wish I could see some - but I can't.
So should the gov provide (short term) support to sectors which are unlikely to survive in their present form
Sounds daft when put like that. Why not support the people instead through transition to other fields via education, retraining and supporting those growth industries*.
*whatever they may be
May 'sound daft' but it's exactly what's happening.
There is no point in propping up industries that are still going fail just to keep the employees on a salary. Just give the money to the employees as a short term (6 month?) allowance to let them find other work. If there is no other work then those people are in the same boat as everyone else looking for work for whatever reason but didn't happen to work for say an airline that was artificially kept alive.
This thread still is about Kier Starmer isn't it?
kerley, yes it is; it got a bit derailed by a post up there ^^^ about Labour's response to supporting airlines and subsequent posts followed on from that.
So, getting back on topic....Starmer has, IMO, started well.
Charisma free… but correct tone, and questions, and looking to the future. Get the right actor to deliver those same words, and it would be standing ovations across the country…
Perhaps this year will have people looking past charisma and delivery (Johnson style) and looking for something else… I’m not holding my breath though.
Maybe the people of the UK should look to the US and see how badly wrong it can get if you elect "personalities" rather than people.
A buffoon as PM is better than a potato brained Caligula, rage tweeting all weekend about conspiracy theories (Obamagate) that only exist in his head.
Sir Keir should keep being calm, rational, reasonable and a breath of fresh air.
Maybe the people of the UK should look to the US and see how badly wrong it can get if you elect “personalities” rather than people.
We don’t need to look that far.
Surely, given the present climate, the more people see of Starmers sober, statesmanlike manner, the more apparent this will become?
Hopefully, we could then get back to having actual proper politicians in charge, not journalists and reality TV nobheads
Possibly. I know several confirmed Tory voters who have espoused the opinion that Boris will have a difficult job next election. Starmer is making the right impression so far.
Starmer is making the right impression so far.
agreed, im a <cough> Tory, and would swing to vote for Starmer if his policies werent bonkers..
Are they bonkers?
Ye gods, I've just watched
It's like night and day, compared with the Sunday Evening Boris Bafflement Bulletin. Delivery, tone, gravitas.
Are they bonkers?
We still don't really know. And why would we? It's early days in the middle of a national crisis. Plenty of time for that. I'd hazard a guess that we won't be seeing free broadband for everybody as the headline manifesto pledge though.
I'd like to think that he'd concentrate on what he's talking about there - "care workers were paid less than the real living wage, care homes were an “afterthought” and a lack of public services investment"
To begin with, he's doing well at creating what will be a first impression of him with a lot of voters, and right now he's looking everything that Boris isn't. mainly.... competent
im a <cough> Tory
mrmonkfinger
Member
Are they bonkers?
sorry, i realise that read as though they were! in fact im saying i believe them not to be at the moment, if they carry on that way then there will be a large swing to him.
And first impression last, binners.
Ah ok, Sui. Yes, a credible competent alternative to the Court Jester will be welcomed here.
So long as he doesn't go the full Corbyn of nationalising air and offering free cake to everyone, every day he should walk it.
The only blot on the horizon is a 'statesmanlike' Tory alternative once Boris is finally carted off. Certainly not Robot Raab or oily Rishi, but there might be someone in the ranks.
The only blot on the horizon is a ‘statesmanlike’ Tory alternative once Boris is finally carted off.
'Statesman like' and 'committed to exiting the EU' are mutually incompatible.
You can't be statesmanlike if your chief policy is "yah boo sucks to you Johnny Foreigner". If only the great unwashed would bloody realise.
So long as he doesn’t go the full Corbyn of nationalising air and offering free cake to everyone, every day he should walk it.
The only blot on the horizon is a ‘statesmanlike’ Tory alternative once Boris is finally carted off. Certainly not Robot Raab or oily Rishi, but there might be someone in the ranks.
But who - to me Gove looks like a comedy character. If he is the successor then I can't see him endearing himself to the unwashed brexit loons who love BJ so much. Rabb is wooden. Sunak would be a good outside bet but then you have to face the 150k moderatley racist tory members before you go to a GE.
The only blot on the horizon is a ‘statesmanlike’ Tory alternative once Boris is finally carted off. Certainly not Robot Raab or oily Rishi, but there might be someone in the ranks
Have you seen any sanity in the Tory party recently? The full-on nutjob cult of Brexit has completely taken over the party. Any leader will have to be elected by same senile old racists as gave us Boris (so that rules out then only vaguely sane one as too....erm... 'brown').
Remember when we had Dave and we thought it couldn't get any worse?
Then we had Theresa and we thought it definitely couldn't get any worse?
Now we've got Boris and we're thinking to ourselves, surely to christ, fo the love of everything that is holy, it really can't get any worse than this?!!!
Now take a look at the Tory front bench...
The next few years are going to be a good time to be leader of the opposition. The last four years were too, but you know..... him...
The scorn poured on nationalised industries and free broadband etc ... whilst the state keeps everything going in midst of the pandemic.
The next few years are going to be a good time to be leader of the opposition. The last four years were too, but you know….. him…
Which is why party polling has still got Labour in the doldrums. You would think in the middle of the Tories making such a mess of things Labour would be walking it with a new leader...
(I know it's very early days but there you go.)
Raaaaaaaaab is probably being lined up. The swivel-eyed loons will probably like the 'Hannibal Lecter The Early Years' vibe.
Don't rule out some insanity. Priti Patel could be the 'see, we are definitely not racist' candidate as her nastiness is so outstanding.
(I know it’s very early days but there you go.)
Oh....erm... ok comrade. I don't think I need to add owt to that. well said. See you in 4 years.
Don’t rule out some insanity. Priti Patel could be the ‘see, we are definitely not racist’ candidate as her nastiness is so outstanding.
In the totally vile, evil, devoid of a single shred of human decency, no-forgiving-features-whatsoever stakes I think she's even trumping Iain Duncan Smith! And that takes some doing!
She'd be about as successful as him, electorally, too. I hope they do it
Priti Patel
The darker, female members of the tory party seem to over compensate to show the white, male members of the tory party that they are more than capable of being completely despicable human beings as well.
**** every single tory.
whilst the state keeps everything going in midst of the pandemic.
"Keeping everything going" is not the same as "buying it all back"
This simple misunderstanding is why Corbs still thinks he 'won the argument' Despite not realizing it wasn't an argument, it was an election.
In the totally vile, evil, devoid of a single shred of human decency, no-forgiving-features-whatsoever stakes I think she’s even trumping Iain Duncan Smith! And that takes some doing!
She’d be about as successful as him, electorally, too. I hope they do it
It depends. The most unnerving thing about the current vogue of right wing populism is how many hidden assholes there were.
That was Trump's major triumph he effectively said "It's OK to be an asshole. It's OK to let your inner asshole win". Back in 2015 no one thought that being an asshole could become a mainstream political movement.
The worst thing was realising just how many barely suppressed assholes there were 'out there'.
Maybe someone as chillingly vile as Priti Patel can get assholery to triumph over everything...
Despite not realizing it wasn’t an argument, it was an election.
Pretty much nails why Corbyn failed.
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Asshole.
Sorry, nothing useful to add.
Also,
You can’t be statesmanlike if your
chiefonly policy is “yah boo sucks to you Johnny Foreigner”. If only the great unwashed would bloody realise.
Minor but I think important correction.
They simply don't have any policy, it's just shoot from the hip and see what falls over.
Jeez Starmer just crushed Johnson at PMQs
the braying mob of tories not being there helps, but he really is good at this
while Johnson is just desperately bad
I watched it too and agree with you.
I wonder what proportion of the population watch it though.
Not enough I bet.
Jeez Starmer just crushed Johnson at PMQs
Won't make much difference. The sort of people who support Johnson will just accept his bluffing. He should keep with the lofty superior tone though, that's the sort of thing that will cut through. It bemuses me why, but people are suckers for a bit of deference, and in Stamer they have someone who they can see as a superior.
The thing is that Starmer has just asked some very clear, concise, carefully worded questions - just like you'd expect from a highly experienced senior lawyer - and Johnson answered (once you discount the blather) with out and out lies.
There's going to be a public inquiry about all this, for certain. And when that happens this is all ammunition for when Boris is up in front of it to be held to account.
I think that is exactly what Starmer is Doing here. He can't change anything, as this government is listening to nobody, but he's subtly preparing the case against them for the inevitable day of reckoning.
Its a hell of a lot more effective political strategy than a ten-second shouty Tweet. Thank christ we've actually got an opposition again. Its been a while.
Thank christ we’ve actually got an opposition again.
The reason for this is down largely to perception. The media and people like yourself have removed the blinkers. I'm pretty sure if you compared the comms before and after the election they'd be pretty similar in content. The difference now is that people are listening rather than looking for excuses to reinforce their prejudices. Due in no small part again to the fact Starmer is a serious, competent and most importantly establishment backed operator. People listen to those who appear superior to them, whether they deserve it or not. Corbyn never had that in his favour.
The reason for this is down largely to perception.
Is it indeed? In that case, you can tell me if you think that Mr Starmers predecessor would have done this?
PMQ's has just finished and Kier Starmer has already written a letter to the PM asking him to return to the house and 'correct the inaccuracies' (read: the lies) in the answers he just gave in the commons, and pointing out those said inaccuracies (lies), then making the letter public
Yeah, I'm sure Jezza would have been straight on that!
https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1260539986107076613?s=20
What he's doing here (as well as pointing out lies) is building up a dossier of evidence against the government for the upcoming public inquiry.
Grandad would have done his usual shouty ten-second thing for Twitter, then buggered off back to the allotment for another week
Corbyn never had that in his favour.
What Corbyn never had was a single ounce of political savvy
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1260542817715265536
Thought that was worth it to show the times.
I don't know exactly what's changed behind the scenes but polish certainly seems to have been applied to the operation.
What is Dazh on about? People are being exposed to competence, it has nothing to do with deference.
To quote one of the replies to Heather Stewart’s tweet... “It’s [PMQs] a joy to watch”
And it is.
Ironically Dazh still has his own Corbyn tinted perceptions intact. Meanwhile back in the real world Binners is more upbeat and yes we may finally have an opposition worth supporting who can hold the idiots to account.
If there is any difference in perception it is because what is being perceived now is a thought through systematic approach which is basically a cross examination. Johnson's team will be very worried about this.
What was being perceived before was a doddering relic trying to out-oaf the biggest oaf of them all and looking like he was going to need a long sit down afterwards with a blanket on his knee to recover. Because that is what it was.
I was very amused by the 'commentators' on the radio saying the remote PMQs created an atmosphere more like a court as that is exactly where Johnson should be. It was also revealing that the guy from the Torygraph said that a more austere and serious atmosphere suited Starmer whilst the braying theatrical atmosphere of 'real' PMQs was where Johnson was more comfortable.
Unsurprising really. A serious and professional man being suited to a serious and professional atmosphere contrasted with a clown being more suited to a circus. I'd rather be led by a serious professional than a ****ing clown.
it has nothing to do with deference.
You don't think people infer competence from seniority? How the hell do you think Johnson got where he is? I'm not saying Starmer isn't competent, quite the opposite in fact, but he's helped hugely by his title and the letters after his name.
he’s helped hugely by his title and the letters after his name
Nah.
Ironically Dazh still has his own Corbyn tinted perceptions intact.
You do know I joined up to vote for Starmer don't you? I'm not having a go at him, I'm just pointing out that he benefits from a much more generous treatment from the media and others on account of his establisment credentials.
Daz - seriously? FFS! - he's the son of a nurse and a toolmaker from Southwark, not little lord ****ing Fauntleroy!
I don’t infer competence for Corbyn in the role he has now vacated on the basis he wasn’t competent in the role.
Those who wanted Corbyn as leader of the opposition in order to harm the opposition showed more political competence than Corbyn.
Dazh, Dazh, Dazh, you really don't get it, Johnson was popular because he told the idiots what they wanted to hear, indulged their mildly racist tendencies and provided lots of short slogans. Corbyn was not popular because he was a bumbling old man, well meaning but seriously out of touch with the modern world wedded to policies that were 20 years out of date.
Today people are less likely to infer competence from seniority as you put it (interesting outdated concept right there), look at the distrust of 'experts'. People don't think like you anymore. They judge on how people behave, Starmer is getting it right, he only needs to properly appeal to the middle swing voters, people like me really, and keep the traditional Labour voters happy. Again something Corbyn misjudged, he was still pushing 1970s policies assuming that's what the working classes wanted, many didn't, they wanted better standards of living and were happy to scapegoat someone else (the EU) for not getting them.
he’s the son of a nurse and a toolmaker from Southwark not little lord ****ing Fauntleroy!
Yes I'm more than aware of that. He's from solid working class roots and I've never said otherwise. One of the reasons I supported him from the start of his leadership campaign, along with his past efforts in things like McLibel. To pretend he doesn't benefit from being a sir and a QC is a bit daft though as he clearly does and is taking advantage of it.
To pretend he doesn’t benefit from being a sir and a QC is a bit daft
His middle name is Rodney which more than cancels out Sir and QC.
To pretend he doesn’t benefit from being a sir and a QC is a bit daft though as he clearly does and is taking advantage of
What a weird take, do you have any idea how hard it is to be made a QC, let alone someone with Starmers educational background
Even she can’t spin it
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Now that would be a turnaround!
do you have any idea how hard it is to be made a QC
That's exactly the point. The fact he is a QC (and a sir) gives him an advantage because people automatically are less likely to be critical of him and show him more respect on account of his titles and qualifications, rather than just what he says or does at any one point in time. Are you saying it's not an advantage?
to pretend he doesn’t benefit from being a sir and a QC is a bit daft
I think its admirable that someone from such a humble background can rise up to achieve that status at the top of the establishment, all off his own back.
He's the absolute epitome of what a meritocracy is meant to be about
Shame I missed this by the sound of it.
I do have some misgivings about the definitely needed public enquiry.
In my opinion, what we need urgently is a quick, accurate review of decisions and actions with a view to learning how to get it right next time, ahead of any blame game. My worry is that any enquiry will get distracted by the blame game aspect, the lawyers will make a fortune out of public money and in 2 years time we are just as ill prepared for another pandemic.
He’s the absolute epitome of what a meritocracy is meant to be about
Standing opposite a man who is the absolute epitome of what a plutocracy can vomit up.
In my opinion, what we need urgently is a quick, accurate review of decisions and actions with a view to learning how to get it right next time, ahead of any blame game. My worry is that any enquiry will get distracted by the blame game aspect, the lawyers will make a fortune out of public money and in 2 years time we are just as ill prepared for another pandemic.
We won't need to wait 2 years - not even 2 months - although given that infection to death averages 3 weeks I can't spin the phrase's handle for another unit of time, before we can see whether the country is getting it right.
He’s the absolute epitome of what a meritocracy is meant to be about
Do you reckon he'd have got to the same position if he was born in gorton to a couple of doleys? You're right, he's done extremely well for himself, and credit to him, but he was undoubtedly helped massively by growing up where he did. My Mrs went to a very posh grammar school in Kent. It was all state funded but the difference in her education and background to mine in a Newcastle council estate-fed comprehensive can't even be compared. There are different levels of meritocracy.
but he was undoubtedly helped massively by growing up where he did
In a country Manor House before being sent to prep and then Grammar school?
born in gorton to a couple of doleys?
Maybe not the first generation (if they did they would be also missing something that would make them less than ideal PM material) but certainly the second generation could and should be able to achieve similar.
Keir Starmtrooper
Shame I missed this by the sound of it.
You can watch again here:
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/c233c46e-2773-4ded-a412-e2a8ea5cc1ab?in=12:02:00&out=12:15:20
The time links dont seem to be working , but it starts around 12:02.
Its a pleasure to watching Kier feed BlowJo rope.
Good lord watching that was wonderful.
After years of political despair, I find myself hoping...
Do you reckon he’d have got to the same position if he was born in gorton to a couple of doleys? You’re right, he’s done extremely well for himself, and credit to him, but he was undoubtedly helped massively by growing up where he did. My Mrs went to a very posh grammar school in Kent. It was all state funded but the difference in her education and background to mine in a Newcastle council estate-fed comprehensive can’t even be compared. There are different levels of meritocracy.
Just, cos, you know, he may very well have done. My Dad was born in Gorton. Not to a couple of doleys, but his dad worked nights in a factory all his life, and they lived in a two-up two down with an outside loo. My dad left school at 14, got a job as an office boy, worked his way up, and when he retired he'd been a stockbroker for 35 years.
A nice little summary
That's true enough.
A mate of mine is very active in local labour politics. She posted a piece praising Starmer. There has followed a tirade of vitriolic abuse from a selection of the local Corbynites. all the usual Tory-lite/Traitor/Capitalist Conspirator, you were all horrid to poor Jeremy rubbish
The sooner they all slope back off to the Socialist Workers Party or whatever shower George Galloway is fronting nowadays, the better
She posted a piece praising Starmer. There has followed a tirade of vitriolic abuse from a selection of the local Corbynites.
Yes, it's terrible when supposed Labour supporters won't get behind their leader.
That’s true enough.
A mate of mine is very active in local labour politics. She posted a piece praising Starmer. There has followed a tirade of vitriolic abuse from a selection of the local Corbynites. all the usual Tory-lite/Traitor/Capitalist Conspirator, you were all horrid to poor Jeremy rubbish
The sooner they all slope back off to the Socialist Workers Party or whatever shower George Galloway is fronting nowadays, the better
Left wing Twitter absolutely detest Starmer, even moreso than Dazh loathes his wife for having a better education
The whole things very odd
Just watched some of the pmqs and I find it incredibly frustrating that Johnson won't engage into any discussions regarding extending the transition period. We are in an incredibly precarious position at the moment, the government is spending huge amounts of money on top of the 200 billion that it is estimated Brexit will cost by the end of 2020 and he is too stubborn to even say "let's take a look at the implications".
I did enjoy watching some parts of it, he makes Boris look like even more of a baffoon than usual.
The whole things very odd
They seem very determined to splinter society along them an us lines as much as anyone else.
Jesus H Christ, that reply from BloHard!
Question: Were you too slow?
Proof of what the government DID say provided, which later turned out to be wrong going forward (as it was then transmitting in the community) and changed accordingly, by Starmer and Mr Prime Mopheads' reply is "this is what is said" with an extra bit in bold, which STILL says what Starmer said it did.
What a c0ckwomble.
In Boris' reply letter* he's blatantly playing the "you mustn't question anything we are doing during wartime" card. Out right saying that Starmers role at this time is just to play along with whatever the government do like a good little opposition leader.
Incredible really.
* Not that Boris even wrote that...
He’s completely lost the Telegraph hasn’t he!